Treasures of the Knights Templar - Conspiracy Theories!

[JakefaePa]

Jake wrote

i am indeed new to Pa and i figured using a nick like that i might get some friendly replys from other pennsylvanians..couldnt be more wrong there really..

Well amigo I hope I have been friendly to you, and I was born in PA. I think we just don't have too many members here on T-net from PA yet, but I am sure more will join eventually. There are a few "bad apples" among us too, but they are a tiny minority among over 20,000 members. Remember too there are a lot of our fellow members here who are just very shy about posting, which may be from reading some of our disagreements I don't know, but I keep hoping that more of our friends here will join in the discussions. "The more the merrier"!

If you don't mind my asking, what part of PA do you now live in? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco - former PA resident
PS
Lamar wrote

The Pope was not the enemy of the Templars, my friend. The Templars themselves were their own worst enemy.

I wonder if Jacques de Molay would agree with your statements? Somehow I have doubts...

Oroblanco i would feel honored to be considered a friend of yours , you see..i lurked and read a lot before joining , i read every post in the montezuma threads and found you to stand out from all posters as worthy of respect.
I read other threads and although dismayed to see many go to pot through personal differences i noticed you remain steady as a rock in your ways , courteous and respectful and worth conversing with , never closed minded on anything.
There are a lot of members from Pa..no harm to them but they seem kind of Qliquey..i dont go that way ..no problems with that at all as my neighbors love having me around and so does my girl..thats enough for me.

Im in Bucks county Oroblanco ..if its anywhere near where you know i can tell you more.

 

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[lamar]

Dear Jake;
The fact remains the Templars were guilty. Plain and simple. There was simply no way that they could get around that fact. Usury, idol worship, denouncing Jesus, defiling His image, absolution of sins, sodomy, blasphemy, esotericism, etc, etc, ad nasium. There was just no way for them to wiggle out of it. All they needed to do was to stop with the secret rituals, charging interest on loans, etc, etc. In other words, they were offered every possible opportunity to clean up their collective act. They catagorically refused to do this. In the end the Vatican had no choice but to dissolve the Templar Order. They were starting to become a MAJOR embarrassment to the church, my friend. To conclude, you would have no different, and neither would I. THe Vatican ultimately made the correct decision.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

Dear Jake;
The fact remains the Templars were guilty. Plain and simple. There was simply no way that they could get around that fact. Usury, idol worship, denouncing Jesus, defiling His image, absolution of sins, sodomy, blasphemy, esotericism, etc, etc, ad nasium. There was just no way for them to wiggle out of it. All they needed to do was to stop with the secret rituals, charging interest on loans, etc, etc. In other words, they were offered every possible opportunity to clean up their collective act. They catagorically refused to do this. In the end the Vatican had no choice but to dissolve the Templar Order. They were starting to become a MAJOR embarrassment to the church, my friend. To conclude, you would have no different, and neither would I. THe Vatican ultimately made the correct decision.
Your friend;
LAMAR

None of this adds up to what you said earlier Lamar?

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

The Holy Roman Empire was Germanic. And yes, Switzerland was a part of the Holy Roman Empire, therefore the Teutonic Knights would have had something to say about Templars being on their lands I imagine. Think of it as Medieval turf wars, as it were.

Hmm well didn't the Teutonic Order found their own state, Prussia? If the Teutons had control of the Swiss cantons, wouldn't it be logical for that to be a part of the same Teutonic state? Thank you in advance,

Lamar also wrote

In other words, they were offered every possible opportunity to clean up their collective act. They catagorically refused to do this. In the end the Vatican had no choice but to dissolve the Templar Order

You see, this part turns us back on the argument about it being "impossible" for any Templars to have fought for the Scots, because of threats from the Pope, when you have pointed out that they were not only disobeying the Pope but refused to stop disobeying. As the Pope ordered them to disband, why should they care by 1314 what the Pope should say about whom they assisted in war? It doesn't make too much sense on that standing.

Jake wrote

Im in Bucks county Oroblanco ..if its anywhere near where you know i can tell you more.

Thank you for the very kind words amigo - I hope I can live up to them! I am not too familiar with Bucks county, grew up in Wyoming co in the NE corner of the state but Bucks county has a lot more history and (IMHO) a much greater chance of finding the really old, really 'cool' coins and relics. You never know what you will dig up in PA, anything from the ubiquitous beer-tab to ancient Mediterranean coins. (I know, they are NOT supposed to be there but they have been found along the Susquehanna river and Lancaster co, I keep watching for more to be found as all those found thus far originated from Carthage. That is quite another 'far-out' discussion though! )
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
It's after 3:00AM in Bolivia and it's tired and I'm late, or something like that. Goodnight all and I pray for everyone to have a wonderful, glorious day tomorrow!
Your friend;
LAMR

 

[Oroblanco]

Ah shoot - how I hate the time changes of 'daylight savings' (as if turning the clock would make the day longer, haha) I have to sign off too. Work tomorrow, you know the old saying, "No rest for the wicked" so will be back tomorrow evening. Thank you for the fascinating discussion, I look forward to continuing. Good night amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek!
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

Its ironic Oroblanco , i came here hoping to find a detecting buddy and out of frustration just went out alone today , in 2 hours i found a sitting liberty half dollar , a barbour quarter , 3 barbour dimes and a few nickels all different eras , theres a bufflao and a v the others are too deteriorated.
The silver cleaned up nice ..beautiful..i really cant wait to get back out to my site.Its a 18th century farm house , still standing , lot of land , i just hoovered up the front yard..maybe 1/4 of it..i think ill stay a solo hunter mate

Your right about the history here , they hid the liberty bell here in town when the British were mucking about.Civil war marched right past my door..Native American Indians..its all out there


Gnite you two , ill look forward to more another day.

 

[Smithbrown]

Well, Brian Scott, who is very respected historian believed the Sinclair voyage to the New World belongs to the world of fiction:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ahamilton/sinclair.htm

Smithbrown

 

[JakefaePa]

thank you for that document SmithBrown , a very valuable tool for our thread.Welcome and please stay awhile , we got some real smart guys up at bat tomorrow.

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Switzerland became a nation in 1291 and the Templar arrests in France took place in 1307, some sixteen years after the fact, my friend. Therefore, no, the rougue Templars did not, nor could not, have helped found Switzerland.

You also stated:
You see, this part turns us back on the argument about it being "impossible" for any Templars to have fought for the Scots, because of threats from the Pope, when you have pointed out that they were not only disobeying the Pope but refused to stop disobeying. As the Pope ordered them to disband, why should they care by 1314 what the Pope should say about whom they assisted in war? It doesn't make too much sense on that standing.
I realize that this may be a very difficult concept for you to grasp, however in the Middle Ages the Military Orders took something called "Holy Vows". Try to understand that Vows were not a contractual agreement between parties, they were a solemn promise to behave a certain way, or believe in a certain principal, until death. It mattered not if a monks' religious Order was disbanded, the vows taken by those monks remained in effect and in full force until exhaustion. Monks in the monastetic military Orders did not make their vows to the Pope or any man, they made them to God.

Please understand also that certain monks were allowed to take vows for a set period of time, usually three, five, or seven years. This was to allow married men to participate in the Middle Eastern festivities whilst protecting the monks' solemn institution of marriage. And the spouse of the monk always had to agree prior to the monk taking his vows. Please note that these monks also took the same vows of chastity, were remained in effect for the duration period of the monks service.

Keep sending them up my friend and I'll keep shooting them down.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

Good morning Lamar , i trust you slumbered comfortably and are rested for this new day ?

 

[lamar]

Dearf JakefaePa;
I did indeed my friend and I trust you did likewise?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear JakefaePa;
You asked me:
None of this adds up to what you said earlier Lamar?
Not at all, my inquisitive friend. One must first understand that there was no *trial* of the Templars. After the arrests in France in 1307 there followed a five year period of suppression. During this time there were a great many inquisitions and trials held throughout Europe and the Middle East.

To further confound the issue, there existed two distinct elements. The first element was the Templar Order itself, and the second element comprised the Orders' individual members. After five years of exhaustive inquisitions and trials, the Vatican arrived at the conclusion that the individual monks of the Order were innocent of the charges levied against them through their own ignorance. The Roman Catholic church has always maintained that a person can not be held responsible for sins which they have committed through ignorance, my friend.

The Templars as an order was an entirely different matter, however. The practices which the Order routinely subjected it's member monks to was heretical, blasphemous and completely contrary to Church beliefs. And, if this is not enough, to confound the issue even FURTHER, it seems that only the Templar monasteries of Western Europe were guilty while the Templar monasteries of the Middle East remained innocent.

To confound the issue yet FURTHER still, it was patently obvious that only members of French noble blood could attain the office of Grand Master of the Order, which was NOT written into their charter nor their Rule. Since this fact was not written anywhere, it was deemed by Vatican officials to be a secret pact of some sort between the highest members of the Order and that WAS a conspiracy.

My earlier proclamations that the Templars were innocent is true and the facts bear witness to this statement. After the trials, the Templars were permitted to go free and pursue their monastetic lives in another Order, or they could return to a secular life or they could retire.

On the other hand the Templar Order was abolished, not for the sins which the Order had perpetuated, rather for the Orders' steadfast refusal to alter it's customs and practices in a manner more in line with eccelestial policies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

Dearf JakefaePa;
I did indeed my friend and I trust you did likewise?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ahhh ..i am sorry to say i have sat up all night conversing with family and friends on the other side of the world...and posting here a little in between.
Rest is for the weary Lamar and this will come to me in good time.

 

[JakefaePa]

Dear JakefaePa;
You asked me:
None of this adds up to what you said earlier Lamar?
Not at all, my inquisitive friend. One must first understand that there was no *trial* of the Templars. After the arrests in France in 1307 there followed a five year period of suppression. During this time there were a great many inquisitions and trials held throughout Europe and the Middle East.

To further confound the issue, there existed two distinct elements. The first element was the Templar Order itself, and the second element comprised the Orders' individual members. After five years of exhaustive inquisitions and trials, the Vatican arrived at the conclusion that the individual monks of the Order were innocent of the charges levied against them through their own ignorance. The Roman Catholic church has always maintained that a person can not be held responsible for sins which they have committed through ignorance, my friend.

The Templars as an order was an entirely different matter, however. The practices which the Order routinely subjected it's member monks to was heretical, blasphemous and completely contrary to Church beliefs. And, if this is not enough, to confound the issue even FURTHER, it seems that only the Templar monasteries of Western Europe were guilty while the Templar monasteries of the Middle East remained innocent.

To confound the issue yet FURTHER still, it was patently obvious that only members of French noble blood could attain the office of Grand Master of the Order, which was NOT written into their charter nor their Rule. Since this fact was not written anywhere, it was deemed by Vatican officials to be a secret pact of some sort between the highest members of the Order and that WAS a conspiracy.

My earlier proclamations that the Templars were innocent is true and the facts bear witness to this statement. After the trials, the Templars were permitted to go free and pursue their monastetic lives in another Order, or they could return to a secular life or they could retire.

On the other hand the Templar Order was abolished, not for the sins which the Order had perpetuated, rather for the Orders' steadfast refusal to alter it's customs and practices in a manner more in line with eccelestial policies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I do not believe they were scolded and sent on thier way with a promise to never do it again , i believe the Catholic church condemned them as heretics and outlawed them one and all..i believe these guys done what any guy would do..run for thier lives...where did they run to..where was sanctuary far away from the ones who would burn them ?

 

[JakefaePa]

Lets consider a few facts about Scotland...theres Edinburgh castle..wow..never been defeated or captured and still the home of the Scottish army , it was built in the 1100's ..a lot of castles were..few ..edited to add ..none actually ..like edinburgh..which stands roughly 7 miles from Roslyn..

 

[JakefaePa]

Edinburgh predates the 1100's by a mile ..records go back to the 9th century of it being a stronghold..i use the 1100's to show that any knight worth his salt would know about such a place..wouldnt he ?

 

[JakefaePa]

Lets just say somebody wants to do us in...somebody we never expected it from......we gotta run..where..some of them guys didnt make it and the Catholics burned them.
Scotland is a day trip away from europe..in a boat maybe 2 days ..3 ..Still seem like too much work ? Think about that big castle..edinburgh..that is what a knight would call sanctuary, 7 miles from Roslyn..cmon you guys .wake up

Makes to much sense doesnt it ? Not while Lamar is running defence on it..makes me think im doing something the tims dont appreciate..the truth.

No offence Lamar..its your job

 

[Smithbrown]

Edinburgh Castle is not quite that secure; Edward I took it in 1296. It was held by the English till 1314.
Scotland in the period you are discussing was in the grip of a Civil War. Hardly a safe refuge when you don't know who will win.
And, by-the-by, the Knights Hospitallers took over the Templars' estates in Scotland.


Smithbrown

 

[JakefaePa]

I feel i must thank you for filling in the blanks smithbrown..so Edward took the castle , the head of a mighty army..yet lost it again so soon..what year do you say..same year i put templers in Scotland///what a coincidence.

Define this "civil war " its not a civil war fighting a commen enemy..and please do start on about clans.. i will love that