Treasures of the Knights Templar - Conspiracy Theories!

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
The Swiss flag did not come into existence until the mid 1600s my friend. The Swiss banking system did not arise until the 1500s. The famed Swiss mercenaries were not mounted knights, rather they were pikemen and their battlefield tactics were completely unknown to the Templars. For that matter their battlefield tactics would have been completely unknown to anyone because the Swiss developed their own tactics. This is why they were so good, my friend.

Besides, had the Templars went to Switerland they would have either have had to joined the Teutonic Knights or been killed by them. You know how those Germans are my friend. There is no middle ground with them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[lamar]

Dear NewtoPa;
You asked:
Didnt that same Pope want them dead ?

They were nothing more than outlaws at this point.
No, my friend the Pope did not want them dead, in fact the Vatican fought very hard to keep the Templars alive. What the Pope DID want was for all existing military Orders to be formed into a solitary Order, such as the Hospitallers. This would have solved a great many problems.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

Thats patently false Lamar

In Jerusalem the Templers began to deviate further and further away from the practices of Christianity. They learned the secret arts of the Kabala and ancient form of Jewish magic along with its dark rights and rituals. The Jews have learned the arts from the pagans of ancient Egypt during the times of enslavement to the Pharaoh and develop them into Babylon for the time of Navakanazar. In 1307 King Philip of France arrested them for charges of denial of Christ, homosexuality and idol worship as well as magic. In 1314 Pope Claymont V declared all Templates heretics to Christianity ordering all their properties to be seized. Their leader Chekthemolay was captured and burnt. The Templace was cornered and just when it seemed they were finished forever a glimmer of hope arose from a seemingly certain end they were to find a safe haven as well as an ally but not in France in fact in a country in a desperate struggle for independence against the English.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hmm now Lamar stated that the Templars became the Order of Christ in Portugal right? Now lets see, what was the symbol of the Order of Christ?

Same two colors, REVERSED. Hmm....

Lamar wrote

This means that if a Holy military Order such as the Templars or Hospitallers were to engage a sovereign Lord on the battlefield without the express consent of the Pope, that would treason and therefore would be grounds for punishment by death.

How do we KNOW that any Templars or Hospitallers who might have been engaged at Bannockburn did NOT have the express approval of the Pope? The relations between kings and queens of England and the Pope were NOT always cordial as is only too well known. Can we be sure that the Pope would have viewed Edward II as his friend and ally? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

Oroblanco , the Pope could not get them on the fire quick enough , what allegience do these templers owe a Pope who wants them dead ?

 

[lamar]

Dear newtoPa;
The deviations of the Templars did not start in the Holy Lands, rather they started in Europe, oddly enough, with most of the serious sins having been commited in France. In England Templars gave testimony that their Grand Masters routined absolved them of all sins, which of course can only be done by a member of the clergy. It was crimes like these which led to the ultimate demise of the Templars, yet the Templars of the Middle East, that being Malta, Rhodes, Cyrus etc, did not confess to a single crime or sin and likewise, no witnesses spoke out against them.

Of course this is completely contrary to what happened to the Templars in Western Europe my friend. I feel that the Vatican must have found that to have been very strange as well.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

From what i understand Kings and Popes coveted the wealth and those are trumped up charges intended to sieze the templers land and wealth and cancel out all debts to aforementioned Kings , the Pope was no friend of the Templers in the end.

 

[lamar]

Dear NewtoPa;
Nine Templars perished in France and one Templar perished in the Tower of London for refusing to recant his sins which he had previously confessed to. He was jailed for life. That's it. That is the total number of Templars executed, my friend. Please be aware that it was the secular authorities who killed those ten Templars and NOT the church.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

The Swiss flag did not come into existence until the mid 1600s my friend

The example I posted, yes, however their original flag/banner was red and at some time in the 14th century (1300s) a WHITE cross was added

I would hesitate before assigning specific nationalities to any Order including the Templars or Teutons etc, or are you now saying that none of the Templars were Germanic? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

Dear NewtoPa;
Nine Templars perished in France and one Templar perished in the Tower of London for refusing to recant his sins which he had previously confessed to. He was jailed for life. That's it. That is the total number of Templars executed, my friend. Please be aware that it was the secular authorities who killed those ten Templars and NOT the church.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Which is fine , lots of them wised up and got away.Its just statements from history like this i have a problem with as to balancing it with what your saying.

In 1314 Pope Claymont V declared all Templates heretics to Christianity ordering all their properties to be seized.

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
The example I posted, yes, however their original flag/banner was red and at some time in the 14th century (1300s) a WHITE cross was added
That is wholly incorrect my friend. Switzerland did not exist as a nation in the 1300s therefore it did not have a national flag. Switzerland was comprised of 13 or 14 cantons and that banner represented of one of them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[JakefaePa]

Does anybody mind if i get "changed" in here ? My name isnt Newt , its Jake ..glad to meet you all , my avatar coin i gave away today to my girls dad...he has Scots roots so i gave him a little piece of Scotland , its time i took the avatar down for another of my wee beauties..thanks.

 

[lamar]

Dear NewtoPa;
You wrote;
In 1314 Pope Claymont V declared all Templates heretics to Christianity ordering all their properties to be seized.
First, the Papal Bull dissolving the Templars was Vox In Excelso and it was written in 1312. And no, my friend Pope Clement V did not declare them as heretics. I am including the English translation of the pertenant paragraph dissolving the Templar Order:

In view of the suspicion, infamy, loud insinuations and other things which have been brought against the other... and also the secret and clandestine reception of the brother of this Order; in view, moreover, of the serious scandal which has arisen from these things, which it did not seem could be stopped while the Order remained in being, and the danger to faith and souls, and the many horrible things which have been done by the very many of the brothers of this Order, who have lapsed into the sin of wicked apostasy, the crime of detestable idolatry, and the execrable outrage of the Sodomites . . . it is not without bitterness and sadness of heart that we abolish the aforesaid Order of the Temple, and its constitution, habit and anme, by an irrevocable and perpetually valid decree; and we subject it to perpetual prohibition with the approval of the Holy Council, strictly forbidding anyone to presume to enter the said Order in the future, or to receive or wear its habit, or to act as a Templar.

All Templars who confessed were absolved of their sins and allowed to join other Orders, or return to secular life, or if they were aged, live out the remainder of their lives on a pension provided by the Vatican. This was a VERY generous punishment in my modest opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

We don't mind if you get changed in here at all, just don't pay any attention to those cameras (heh heh) after all, a treasure hunter ought to have at least three or four names available to use as the occasion calls for!

Hmm so "only" nine Templars were killed in France? Wasn't the head of the Templars burned at the stake? If the Pope declared them all to be at least apostasics, then why would they care what the Pope thought if they should serve Robert to fight against England in Scotland? That part doesn't make too much sense to me.

Lamar wrote

Switzerland did not exist as a nation in the 1300s therefore it did not have a national flag.

I beg to differ on your definition of Switzerland "not existing" - the nation was founded in 1291, being originally only a few cantons of course, but as a political entity it certainly existed and they did have a banner flag granted to them by the Holy Roman Emperor.
Oroblanco

 

[JakefaePa]

In 1314 Pope Claymont V declared all Templates heretics to Christianity ordering all their properties to be seized. Their leader Chekthemolay was captured and burnt.



Doesnt seem overly "generous"

 

[JakefaePa]

We don't mind if you get changed in here at all, just don't pay any attention to those cameras (heh heh) after all, a treasure hunter ought to have at least three or four names available to use as the occasion calls for!

Hmm so "only" nine Templars were killed in France? Wasn't the head of the Templars burned at the stake? If the Pope declared them all to be at least apostasics, then why would they care what the Pope thought if they should serve Robert to fight against England in Scotland? That part doesn't make too much sense to me.
Oroblanco

Heh heh i aint camera shy ..rest assured i dont have multiple hats , i am indeed new to Pa and i figured using a nick like that i might get some friendly replys from other pennsylvanians..couldnt be more wrong there really..thats fine , however i just didnt like being tagged newt ..im jake

 

[lamar]

Dear JakefaePa;
You may wish to take note of two facts, my friend. First, the Templars were arrested in France in October 1307 and the Papal Bull was issued in 1312. Next, there is this sentence from the Bull:
which it did not seem could be stopped while the Order remained in being,

What this means is that the Vatican gave the Templar Order FIVE YEARS to change their ways!!! That's right my friend! They were given F-I-V-E years to alter their methods, rituals and practices and yet the Templars CHOSE not to. In my opinion the Vatican was EXTREMELY lenient with the Templars and it was only after it was plainly obvious that the Templars would not alter the Order that the Vatican decided to dissolve them. And so, we not let the facts speak for themselves. The Pope was not the enemy of the Templars, my friend. The Templars themselves were their own worst enemy.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Jake wrote

i am indeed new to Pa and i figured using a nick like that i might get some friendly replys from other pennsylvanians..couldnt be more wrong there really..

Well amigo I hope I have been friendly to you, and I was born in PA. I think we just don't have too many members here on T-net from PA yet, but I am sure more will join eventually. There are a few "bad apples" among us too, but they are a tiny minority among over 20,000 members. Remember too there are a lot of our fellow members here who are just very shy about posting, which may be from reading some of our disagreements I don't know, but I keep hoping that more of our friends here will join in the discussions. "The more the merrier"!

If you don't mind my asking, what part of PA do you now live in? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco - former PA resident
PS
Lamar wrote

The Pope was not the enemy of the Templars, my friend. The Templars themselves were their own worst enemy.

I wonder if Jacques de Molay would agree with your statements? Somehow I have doubts...

 

[JakefaePa]

So the Templers were issued warnings..not very generous ..change thier ways or what ?

By the way Lamar my friend , please call me Jake if you wish ,my friends all do , "fae" is simply "from" no need to type all that out.

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
The Holy Roman Empire was Germanic. And yes, Switzerland was a part of the Holy Roman Empire, therefore the Teutonic Knights would have had something to say about Templars being on their lands I imagine. Think of it as Medieval turf wars, as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR