Treasure Trove Permits

[UncleMatt]

The posts by Scott near the beginning of this thread are a very good read. I wish he was still posting here!

 

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[UncleMatt]

Ryan, very astute observation! We often lament here on T-net about not hearing success stories from treasure hunters who have found lost mines or treasure, and the things you mention are the reasons why! I am not the first here to note that you will never hear the really good information on T-net, simply because it would implicate people, or give away information they have most likely spent a lot of time and effort obtaining.

But we discuss treasure trove permits on T-net as a way to educate ourselves, and perhaps avoid Imperial entanglements. Its not that we are necessarily advocating anyone actually seek to file or obtain them. Especially since most people lack the necessary hard evidence to ever get one issued. Wishful thinking, maps from treasure books, presenting natural formations as treasure monuments, and plain old delusions, will never get you a treasure trove permit in the US. Plain and simple.

 

[UncleMatt]

The only reality based reason I can think of for a treasure hunter to file for a treasure trove permit is if they know for a certainty they have already located their target, and they would be able to make more money off of the media and being famous for having found it than off of the treasure itself.

 

[UncleMatt]

For example, if someone actually located the Dutchman, I imagine it would be very much in their best interests to give notice to the government and to the public in a legal way, simply because the fame AND fortune they could generate from having done so would take much less effort than mining it out of the ground! They would make millions just off appearing on talk shows! They would make more millions on endorsements of products and services! They would make still more millions on the lecture circuit. And even more millions on the subsequent media opportunities like shows and movies. And that is before you even write a book about it! And you also would have the ability to make money from merchandising, like T-shirts and anything with your name on it related to prospecting, mining, and treasure hunting. And you would buy very few drinks at watering holes due to your fame....

 

[Hal Croves]

The only reality based reason I can think of for a treasure hunter to file for a treasure trove permit is if they know for a certainty they have already located their target, and they would be able to make more money off of the media and being famous for having found it than off of the treasure itself.

There may be other less selfish reasons to apply for one. What if obtaining one lead to the recognition of a previously unknown and historically important site? Would that be worth it?

 

[gollum]

I found out yesterday that Scott just retired from the USFS. Since his job would no longer be in any jeopardy, he jumped out yelling about the Resolution Copper Mine Deal.


Matt,

While, to us that may seem to be true, the truth is probably far less. You would be surprised at how many people have never heard of The Lost Dutchman Mine. Fifty years ago, treasure hunting was much more popular than today. Just the opposite of environmentalists that nobody gave a crap about fifty years ago, but are VERY big today. I bet you would top out at somewhere in the tens of thousands. Maybe $100K.

I posted a long time ago about the process, as a good friend had to do that for Tumacacori. He posts here occasionally as INFOSPONGE.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

Yes. If I were to find artifacts, I would definitely report them.

 

[UncleMatt]

Mike, where is Scott posting online these days? I would love to follow his comments.

 

[gollum]

There may be other less selfish reasons to apply for one. What if obtaining one lead to the recognition of a previously unknown and historically important site? Would that be worth it?

Hal,

A Treasure Trove Permit is for just THAT. A Treasure Trove consists of processed metal. Although, what can mess up your Treasure Trove Permitting, is the fact that before being granted an Archaeological Assessment of your site has to be performed by a Board Certified Archaeologist (at your expense). If that archaeologist finds anything of historical significance anywhere near your treasure site, then you will probably not get it approved.


Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

Take a look at what Ryan has experienced. He put a video he created himself on youtube about a hike related to the recent Superstition Mountain show, and has had over 11,000 views in less than a month! Now imagine if he had stumbled on the Dutchman while making his video. I imagine he would receive several hundred thousand just for an advance on a book from major publisher.

 

[Hal Croves]

I found out yesterday that Scott just retired from the USFS. Since his job would no longer be in any jeopardy, he jumped out yelling about the Resolution Copper Mine Deal.


Matt,

While, to us that may seem to be true, the truth is probably far less. You would be surprised at how many people have never heard of The Lost Dutchman Mine. Fifty years ago, treasure hunting was much more popular than today. Just the opposite of environmentalists that nobody gave a crap about fifty years ago, but are VERY big today. I bet you would top out at somewhere in the tens of thousands. Maybe $100K.

I posted a long time ago about the process, as a good friend had to do that for Tumacacori. He posts here occasionally as INFOSPONGE.

Mike

Mike can you please post a link to your posts? I would like to read them.
My advice is to forget about the Lost Dutchman, the Peraltas, the Jesuits, and the stone maps and start with what's actually there, waiting to be understood in the SWA. After understanding what it is or was, then work back in time to who put it there.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

A Treasure Trove Permit is for just THAT. A Treasure Trove consists of processed metal. Although, what can mess up your Treasure Trove Permitting, is the fact that before being granted an Archaeological Assessment of your site has to be performed by a Board Certified Archaeologist (at your expense). If that archaeologist finds anything of historical significance anywhere near your treasure site, then you will probably not get it approved.


Mike

Reading Scott's post, the arch survey is done by the Forest Service on their schedule and cost. But one can hire a licensed archeologist to expedite the process privately. They being permitted to work on Federal Lands. It's not an easy thing to do either way.

 

[deducer]

....if you can. It's not realistic to think that he would make time for someone outside Franks magic circle. Understandably so with everything that's been written about him and said behind closed doors. And from self proclaimed friends? Why would he?

Oro is one of the brighter lights on the TNet tree. I trust his opinion. Yours as well.

When its my turn, it will be by the book, with a focus on archeology, preservation and documentation. It's public land and whatever is found there belongs to the public, ...minus a modest finders fee. <|: )

Hal, you'd be surprised how much information you can get in private, if you're polite and exercise a little courtesy. If you ask Ron to describe his experience with the TT permit process, he'll probably be more than happy to tell you how frustrating it was. Naturally if you ask him what he found, he'll clam up, so keep that in mind.

 

[deducer]

Yes - or just watch the series A&E did with Feldman. It's called Treasure! The Lost Dutchman Mine.

They talk to Feldman as part of that episode, and say something to the effect of:

A&E - “Is the Lost Dutchman Mine still out there?

Feldman - “I cannot answer that question because if I do, I will incriminate myself”

The video can be purchased at the Museum, right next to Feldman’s book where he describes the process of how he did everything he did - of course, its written as Fiction.

I never pay attention to anything a self-respecting DH says in front of an audience. As has been mentioned many times, what a DH will say in public is very different than what he will say in private. Bob Schoss contradicted himself on two different shows.

I find it kind of funny - to be honest - that 90% of you here are gun advocates and owners. One of the biggest things "gun people" will say is "Making a law to get rid of the guns will only affect the honest owners of guns. If a criminal is going to go shoot someone, do think they care about gun laws?"

Yet - you think its necessary to post rules on how to get a treasure trove permit - where the chances of being approved on such a big "heist" is nearly impossible. If someone knows how to get millions worth of gold - they will do it without the permission of the gov't. They will find an area near by, perhaps a well, get a permit to give them a reason to be in the area - then dig up lots of gold at a different (but close) location -

I've been here a month - its really not that hard to figure out.

I don't recall discussing gun laws, only the mindset one should be in if one draws a gun.

Also don't think TT rules are really the subject here, only how hard it is to get a TT permit.

then post a vlog that is ALL about it, because you just cannot contain your excitement.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[KXMember]

The Funny Thing Is The Very Second One Year Ago That """"I Mentioned I Had Infact Found The LDM"""" I WAS INSTANTANIOUSLY put on ignore. Ive Come way past that now. And will be ignored No more!

Mad Oro Ranger Or Nelson....

You have found NOTHING

 

[Johncoho]

That was a very interesting writing. My wife and I travel to Apache Junction for the winter months and have been doing so for 4 years. I joined a local well known treasure hunting/ metal detecting club to learn where we could metal detect legally and enjoy our hobby. One of our first club outings was to the old Pinal City to metal detect and the entire club met there on a Saturday and didn't find much, but assumed that it was O.K. to metal detect there. Several weeks later my cousin and I went back up to metal detect on a Saturday, and in the process ran into a very irate Forest Service archeaologist that was ready to call law enforcement and have us arrested. We didn't find much other than old rusted cans, of which there must have been thousands thrown there and a shell casing for an older black powder weapon. This gentleman had us empty our pockets and turn over what we had found, so we did as we were told, after we had proof of who he was, and explained that we did not know what we were doing was illegal based on the fact that our club had taken us there for an outing. We parted ways with a discussion about him coming to our club to give us a talk on what is legal and what is not legal. I gave him the contact info and thought that sometime in the future he would give us some info. That was 4 years ago and the club officers and myself have never heard from him since. Our club has been back there for several outings over the last 4 years and have had no other contact from him. I guess we were in the wrong, but believed that the club officials would know where we could metal detect, and had done their research. Now we are very careful to do our own research before we do any detecting in the desert areas of Arizona. I have been to the Mesa ranger station many times and have been treated very well with the rangers I have talked with. I feel they do an excellent job with the amount of territory they take care of.

 

[gollum]

That was a very interesting writing. My wife and I travel to Apache Junction for the winter months and have been doing so for 4 years. I joined a local well known treasure hunting/ metal detecting club to learn where we could metal detect legally and enjoy our hobby. One of our first club outings was to the old Pinal City to metal detect and the entire club met there on a Saturday and didn't find much, but assumed that it was O.K. to metal detect there. Several weeks later my cousin and I went back up to metal detect on a Saturday, and in the process ran into a very irate Forest Service archeaologist that was ready to call law enforcement and have us arrested. We didn't find much other than old rusted cans, of which there must have been thousands thrown there and a shell casing for an older black powder weapon. This gentleman had us empty our pockets and turn over what we had found, so we did as we were told, after we had proof of who he was, and explained that we did not know what we were doing was illegal based on the fact that our club had taken us there for an outing. We parted ways with a discussion about him coming to our club to give us a talk on what is legal and what is not legal. I gave him the contact info and thought that sometime in the future he would give us some info. That was 4 years ago and the club officers and myself have never heard from him since. Our club has been back there for several outings over the last 4 years and have had no other contact from him. I guess we were in the wrong, but believed that the club officials would know where we could metal detect, and had done their research. Now we are very careful to do our own research before we do any detecting in the desert areas of Arizona. I have been to the Mesa ranger station many times and have had treated very well with the rangers I have talked with. I feel they do an excellent job with the amount of territory they take care of.

If this was recent, you probably ran into J Scott Wood's replacement. Scott was the Chief Archaeologist for The Tonto National Forest for almost forty years. He started this thread, but doesn't post here any more.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

That was a very interesting writing. My wife and I travel to Apache Junction for the winter months and have been doing so for 4 years. I joined a local well known treasure hunting/ metal detecting club to learn where we could metal detect legally and enjoy our hobby. One of our first club outings was to the old Pinal City to metal detect and the entire club met there on a Saturday and didn't find much, but assumed that it was O.K. to metal detect there. Several weeks later my cousin and I went back up to metal detect on a Saturday, and in the process ran into a very irate Forest Service archeaologist that was ready to call law enforcement and have us arrested. We didn't find much other than old rusted cans, of which there must have been thousands thrown there and a shell casing for an older black powder weapon. This gentleman had us empty our pockets and turn over what we had found, so we did as we were told, after we had proof of who he was, and explained that we did not know what we were doing was illegal based on the fact that our club had taken us there for an outing. We parted ways with a discussion about him coming to our club to give us a talk on what is legal and what is not legal. I gave him the contact info and thought that sometime in the future he would give us some info. That was 4 years ago and the club officers and myself have never heard from him since. Our club has been back there for several outings over the last 4 years and have had no other contact from him. I guess we were in the wrong, but believed that the club officials would know where we could metal detect, and had done their research. Now we are very careful to do our own research before we do any detecting in the desert areas of Arizona. I have been to the Mesa ranger station many times and have been treated very well with the rangers I have talked with. I feel they do an excellent job with the amount of territory they take care of.

the forest service doesn't have the authority to search you....if you had contacted a lawyer he would have been in a pile of trouble

 

[Hal Croves]

the forest service doesn't have the authority to search you....if you had contacted a lawyer he would have been in a pile of trouble

That particular individual (JSW?) may not have had the authority to search an individual in the SWA (its honestly not clear to me) however, the Forest Service has their own Law Enforcement department and they can legally do far more to you then just "search" if they suspect you of breaking the law. Arrest, detainment, and confiscation of personal property, all completely within their powers.

 

[KXMember]

That particular individual (JSW?) may not have had the authority to search an individual in the SWA (its honestly not clear to me) however, the Forest Service has their own Law Enforcement department and they can legally do far more to you then just "search" if they suspect you of breaking the law. Arrest, detainment, and confiscation of personal property, all completely within their powers.

If one truly understands/overstands their Constitutional Rights, then they can't do anything of that nature without an injured party claiming wrong doing. Period