Treasure Trove Permits

ya know folks, i have never said what i post was true facts. never ask any of you to believe all or any part,and never even ask you to bother checking it out..
i do know what i found. it will be made public sometime in the next couple years, the after forest service archaeologist check the sites i found. i know i will never get anything out of them because they are historical sites and you already know laws about that type of site. :tongue3:
 

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there were so many trade routes between mesoamerica and what is now arizona, that anything is possible..but lamar is correct on the document side of the storeys...there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake...
the Aztec gave the spanish enough gold to satisfy a nation, and all it did was inflame their greed...the aztecs were only savages
in the ethnocentric world of the spanish...by throwing the gold in the lake, they hoped the spanish would leave.
 

Dear pippinwhitepaws;
"..but lamar is correct on the document side of the storeys...there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake..."
Was there ever any doubt, my friend? :wink:
Your wisecracking friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Tracker1;
What did you find, my friend? I am curious to know exactly what you have recovered. Can you post photographs of the recovered items? Of course, if you wish, you can put those black bands over the eyes of any and all people in the photo(s) in order to protect their identity(s). Why must we wait for a couple of years? Why can't we be informed of your find right now? I am extremely curious and I would like to share the excitement of your discovery my friend and I am quite sure others are just as curious as myself.
Your waiting on the edge of my seat friend;
LAMAR
 

Lamar,

"In reality, there is no question about WHERE the Aztec treasure lies, my friend. There is plenty of historical documentation that tells us EXACTLY where it's located at. I've seen and physically touched some of the actual archived documents which tells where the treasure lies and how it came to rest where it is now. It's currently resting quite peacefully at the bottom of the lake which Mexico City sits upon. There were over one hundred Spaniards who watched in horror and disbelief as the Aztecs sent their nation's treasures to the bottom. And there it now rests undisturbed, unless someone managed to figure a way to fish it all up from the some 200 feet of volcanic silt that it now nestles snugly at the bottom of. :-) The question now is, HOW can it be recovered? As to date, no one has yet to come up with a workable solution."

Are the documents you speak of Spanish, or Aztec?

Thank you,

Joe
 

pip,

"there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake..."

Can you tell us the source of this story?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo
 

HOLA mi amigo Tracker1 (and everyone),

Tracker1 wrote
oroblanco

I'm sure your info is closer to being right then what i posted, i was trying not to take up to much time and space, the only thing i have to go by is a little i can remember. when i turned 70 i packed all my info in boxes and took it to Cali, i give it to my nephew. all i have left is a few pictures and maps.

I quit looking in the superstitions when it was closed to mining.
Click to expand...

Well - I am not sure how good my info is, as I never found the Lost Dutchman mine so....? Thank you for sharing what you can recall, it is a great story! It seems many folks give little credence to the Indians versions of history, and rely only on the "Western" documented versions, be it Spanish, Church, or governmental archive. This approach, of complete reliance upon only those "Western" documented resources, may not be the best. After all, if these historical archives had the WHOLE story, the Lost Dutchman gold mine (and many other treasures) would have been found already!
One factor that gets ignored by the researchers who rely on the Western archives is that the people who recorded those documents were not always writing down the full truth, the whole story, and they definitely were telling things only from their own point of view. Those people had their own agendas - including the Spanish, the Jesuits, Franciscans, Mexicans and Americans. Secrets were not always written down for the very good reason that they were secrets, and such things as lost gold mines and treasures are very important secrets. To those people, the Indians were nothing but savage enemies - however the Indians also recorded history from their view, and passed on this history verbally. Oral histories have proven to be surprisingly accurate (check out Serbian oral histories of their wars with the Turks for proven examples) so we ought not dismiss Indian stories out of hand, simply because they do not always agree with our Western written histories.

I can understand your reasons for giving up the search when the Wilderness Area was created, but they cannot legislate away mens dreams. I believe that some day, someone will find it - and that with the right "deal" cut with the governmental authorities, the gold may yet come to light. There are some who believe that gold mine was already found and mined out, yet there are reasons not to agree.

If you can recall more details my friend Tracker1, I hope you will share them with us - and please do not take it personally if someone should disagree and point out that the story from the Apaches does not agree with a Spanish archive or Church documents. The Apaches story should be examined on its own merit and investigated, you never know what may be found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek. :thumbsup:
your friend,
Oroblanco :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco said:
HOLA mi amigo Tracker1 (and everyone),

Tracker1 wrote
oroblanco

I'm sure your info is closer to being right then what i posted, i was trying not to take up to much time and space, the only thing i have to go by is a little i can remember. when i turned 70 i packed all my info in boxes and took it to Cali, i give it to my nephew. all i have left is a few pictures and maps.

I quit looking in the superstitions when it was closed to mining.
Click to expand...

Well - I am not sure how good my info is, as I never found the Lost Dutchman mine so....? Thank you for sharing what you can recall, it is a great story! It seems many folks give little credence to the Indians versions of history, and rely only on the "Western" documented versions, be it Spanish, Church, or governmental archive. This approach, of complete reliance upon only those "Western" documented resources, may not be the best. After all, if these historical archives had the WHOLE story, the Lost Dutchman gold mine (and many other treasures) would have been found already!
One factor that gets ignored by the researchers who rely on the Western archives is that the people who recorded those documents were not always writing down the full truth, the whole story, and they definitely were telling things only from their own point of view. Those people had their own agendas - including the Spanish, the Jesuits, Franciscans, Mexicans and Americans. Secrets were not always written down for the very good reason that they were secrets, and such things as lost gold mines and treasures are very important secrets. To those people, the Indians were nothing but savage enemies - however the Indians also recorded history from their view, and passed on this history verbally. Oral histories have proven to be surprisingly accurate (check out Serbian oral histories of their wars with the Turks for proven examples) so we ought not dismiss Indian stories out of hand, simply because they do not always agree with our Western written histories.

I can understand your reasons for giving up the search when the Wilderness Area was created, but they cannot legislate away mens dreams. I believe that some day, someone will find it - and that with the right "deal" cut with the governmental authorities, the gold may yet come to light. There are some who believe that gold mine was already found and mined out, yet there are reasons not to agree.

If you can recall more details my friend Tracker1, I hope you will share them with us - and please do not take it personally if someone should disagree and point out that the story from the Apaches does not agree with a Spanish archive or Church documents. The Apaches story should be examined on its own merit and investigated, you never know what may be found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek. :thumbsup:
your friend,
Oroblanco :coffee2:

Hello Oroblanco
Thank you, Tracker was just relating a Apache story he had heard years ago. Just shows how closed minded people can become and not realize they have.
Eugene
Click to expand...
 

Dear Eugene Martin;
I thought it best to present the actual historical facts on the subject, both written and physical. I never told Tracker1 or anyone else how they were to think or to believe, however I feel that before someone invests time, money and effort into a project they SHOULD have ALL of the facts at their disposal in order to make an enlightened and INFORMED decision, my friend. Wouldn't you agree?
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear Eugene Martin;
I thought it best to present the actual historical facts on the subject, both written and physical. I never told Tracker1 or anyone else how they were to think or to believe, however I feel that before someone invests time, money and effort into a project they SHOULD have ALL of the facts at their disposal in order to make an enlightened and INFORMED decision, my friend. Wouldn't you agree?
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Dear LAMAR
Thank you for the facts Sir, But just the facts has not found the mines and if the effort to find the mines is to succeed than we'll have to consider the facts and the stories from all sources available to us.
Most of us has spent a lot of money and time to follow the stories and the trails, but this will not stop us from spending much more time and money to track these trails to the mines.
To you it might seem to be just a story, but to those of us who have lived the trials of these trails from these stories, we know the wheat and the carnal because of those trials of hard ship that bring us ever closer to seeing thru there eye's and understanding them and there world.
I'll take all information I can get and separate it with good old logic and life experiences.
Thank you.
Eugene
 

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Dear Eugene Martin;
Thank you kindly sir, and I would like to remind you that the fiction, myths, legends, suppositions, outright fabrications and tall tales have yet to find the mines either. :wink:
Your friend with the facts in hand;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear Eugene Martin;
Thank you kindly sir, and I would like to remind you that the fiction, myths, legends, suppositions, outright fabrications and tall tales have yet to find the mines either. :wink:
Your friend with the facts in hand;
LAMAR
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Dear LAMAR
Thank you for the facts, but again, that is facts and your opinion. If you have never walked in another mans shoes, you'll never see thru his eye's. Sir, you seem to be a man of faith, and yet you seem to have so little of it for your fellow man.
Thanks again for the facts.
Eugene
 

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Dear Eugene Martin:
My friend, I posted the facts but not my opinion of them. The facts always speak for themselves and no amount of yarn spinning will be able to alter them in the slightest. It was as it was, my friend. And no, I do not typically walk in the shoes of others. My own fit me just fine, thank you very much for the offer.

This is why when you walk into a debate with the facts firmly in hand, you will win, not part of the time, or sometimes, but all of the time. Because the other side cannot argue with the facts. Well researched historical facts makes a person seem professional and dedicated, whereas a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand, my friend. One pecular aspect to historical facts are that they can be PROVEN. We can take the recorded information and compare it to the physical information and if they match, then it's all true, but if a significant difference is noted then it becomes false or unverified.

For example, Tracker1 basically stated that the Aztec loaded up all of their treasures and lit out for the north to secret everything in the Superstitions. Fine. Can anyone prove this theory with historical documentation or with physical evidence? if a person were to propose this theory to an archeologist, I am fairly certain the archie would have some rather specific questions to ask, such as:
How were the Aztec able to accomplish this feat without horses, burros or wagons at their disposal?
Why would the Aztec risk so much to hide something which to them had no intrinsic value? (Gold was not coveted by the Aztecs, only by the Spaniards)
How did they survive the almost constant attacks from hostiles as they verntured away from the home territories?
How did they find water in the arrid region to the north?
How did they eat?
If an Apache knew about this feat, then how does/did he know about it?
If this legend has been passed down orally from generation to generation, why has it not been written down, by eithe Apache historians or general historians?
Why do all of the documents from the Conquisadores tell a completely different story?
And on and on, ad nauseum, my friend.

If one presents a somewhat radical theory then one should be able to defend it. This is the very basis of scientific research, my friend. Will all new technological advances and breakthroughs, first a scientist, or a group of scientists, does the research, then after exploring all possibilities writes a paper on the findings which is distributed throughout the scientific world via journals, letters or through the media.

It then becomes attacked by other scientists and it's validity is questioned, and if the theory survives these attacks it then becomes valid. For example, when Fr. Georges Lemaître (a very highly regarded Jesuit priest, by the way) first proposed a theory on the formation of the Universe, it was attacked by virtually every other accredited scientist in the world, including the famous Albert Einstein. Incidentally, the current name of Fr. Lemaître's theory was coined by an early detractor, the famed astronomer Fred Hoyle. Fr. Lemaître's theory was then confirmed by physical observations by Edwin Hubble and thus far, Fr. Lemaître's theory remains valid as is known as The Big Bang theory.

To conclude, when one proposes a theory, any theory, on an event or idea which is not within the realm of typically accepted historical written of physical facts, then the person proposing the theory should be ready to defend it. This is not a personal attack my friend, it's merely the only method we have at our disposal to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

LAMAR
Maybe you should teach your shoes where and how to walk! Sorry but all you win with me is MAYBE a 2 cent BOOBY PRIZE.

You ask before, for me to post proof of what I found. "I'm not stupid." If I did that, You and a couple thousand people like you would be out there blowing up mountains just like some did in the past.

You also stated you are not interested in mines or treasures, your only doing historical research. "You may fool some with that statement." I feel sorry for the ones you do.

You also state, your information is True and Historical Facts. you'll have to prove that to me.

Of-course we all know. hehehe, a Priest would (NEVER LIE) to Protect himself and or property.

You ask, If an Apache knew about this feat, then how does/did he know about it? Check your history AND your Historical Facts. Just so happens they lived in this area....

I ask you before, What i9s Montezuma's Castle? you couldn't answer me, "Have you checked it out yet?

Everything you have said so fare, is your opinion, as far as I can see. You Show NO proof!!!! Theory's are like Opinion's EVERYONE has ONE OR MORE....

Oh, one last thing, you keep calling me Friend, You don't know me and I don't know you.. We are NOT friends yet and probably NEVER will be, "(SO don't call me friend.""

TRACKER 1
 

Tracker 1,

Lamar has outlined the problem quite well, IMHO. He attacks your facts, and others as well, and you/they turn it into something personal. "X" is "X" and "Y" is "Y". When someone comes along and claims they are both "Z", they need to explain why that is so.

For those who have studied the historical records of the Aztec, Jesuit and Apache, your stories create considerable doubt. Unfortunately, your tales originate from treasure hunter's. In most cases, their stories are easy to expose as fiction. No one who believes in these stories will ever (almost) accept any evidence that is contrary to that belief. I know, as I was once a believer. It took a number of years of hard research, on both sides of the stories, to convince me it was pure fantasy.

Not long ago, bb was telling us the exact story that you are repeating now. Because of his confrontational manner, which seems to be mirrored by yours, he was not given much respect. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you can't stand honest debate on the merits of your story/evidence, you will find the same walls blocking any attempts for a treasure trove permit, that bb did.

Don Jose's claims that he has found Tayopa have been convincing to many on this Forum. To change history, he will need to convince the world. While you may convince many people on a Treasure Forum, it will take solid proof to change history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

HI MI Amigo Lamar: While I agree in essence, En garde for some of your points heeheh.

A) One peculiar aspect to historical facts are that they can be PROVEN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In broad general terms, perhaps, since many 'facts' are based upon first person observance, and many do not have any available true written data to back them up, only suppositions of varied observers or interpretations of various writers, many of whom, even in the scientific circle's, are not adverse to adding or subtracting a bit to further their belief or position.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B) a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Such as was commonly posted on Troy as being just a pretty legend, nothing more? Or even Allantis? (The Latter is still in the proving stages until we are capable of exploring it's site under 12,000 ft under water)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

C) a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately true, but in light of ongoing developments, later proven correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D) How were the Aztec able to accomplish this feat without horses, burros or wagons at their disposal?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since they never developed the wheel, and horses came with the Spanish, how did they construct their magnificent works? The same way, if they actually did move this treasure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

E) How did they eat? -- How did they survive the almost constant attacks from hostiles as they verntured away from the home territories
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not really not too relevent Lamar, since this also applies to their building up their empire originally. As for atacks, what tribe would seriously consider attacking them, since they would be a large army in any event. They would be better armed, trained in combat, disciplined, and most important, armed with their reputation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F) If this legend has been passed down orally from generation to generation, why has it not been written down, by eithe Apache historians or general historians?
Why do all of the documents from the Conquisadores tell a completely different story?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sheehs Lamar, who knows, it may well have been, but lost today. As for the Conquistadors, Much of their data and records are incorrect. What about the 7 Ciudades of Cibola? I will accept the Spanish data after the Jesuits had established missions and the Spanish court was well established in Mexico with multi copies of each transaction or expedition .

As has often been stated correctly The victors write the history. Today in Japan, the school children are taught that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in retaliation for the Atomic bombing at Hiroshima and Nagasaki ???
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G) If one presents a somewhat radical theory then one should be able to defend it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Defend yes, prove no, that comes with the development and time. Crude examples, "How was the Universe started?" Was the world created by GOD or a natural occurrence?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

H) it's merely the only method we have at our disposal to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agreed my friend, but remember it works both ways. Nothing that we know of or believe today is absolutely correct, all, including dying, and Religious beliefs, are subject to change.

Don Jose DE La Manchu
 

Cactus - Joe, snifff: You posted -->

'Don Jose's claims that he has found Tayopa have been convincing to many on this Forum. To change history, he will need to convince the world. While you may convince many people on a Treasure Forum, it will take solid proof to change history.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh ye of little faith Joe, sniff, get a shovel and come on down to do your part for history. Next you will be requireing that Moses, the seven commandments, and the ressurection of JESUS, must be proven. You forget that I am basically a Universal Saint, just ask ORO the sheep lover.

ALL THINGS COME WITH TIME, patience.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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