Treasure Mountain, CO - Lost Frenchmens Gold

[Old Bookaroo]

Randy:

Good information! Thank you! I found a Xanthus Carson (has there been more than one?) born in 1910 who died in 1977 in New Mexico. It begins to look like Xanthus Carson was Xanthus Carson. Although his work sure does read like "Maurice Kildare's."

I also found:



Copyright entries often expose pen names. That's how I first learned KvonM was Charles Dean Miller.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

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[sdcfia]

Good to hear from you again Fred. The woman you are talking about is not Editha Watson. Watson wrote those articles in the mid 1930s and they were part of a series that were syndicated throughout the country. I've seen those "Golden Phantoms" articles in papers from one coast to the other during that period. I've managed to collect about 50 of them and transcribe them. Editha went on to write a great many papers and books about the Navajos and appears to have been well regarded in this discipline. ...

A collection of 50 of Ms Watson's treasure articles would be a significant asset to own. I have researched one of them (The Golden Giant) that provided details that were not available elsewhere, to my knowledge, except by word of mouth legends repeated by locals. Watson was primarily known as a Native American folklorist, but it would be interesting to know more about her and her methods of collecting the treasure legends.

 

[Randy Bradford]

A collection of 50 of Ms Watson's treasure articles would be a significant asset to own. I have researched one of them (The Golden Giant) that provided details that were not available elsewhere, to my knowledge, except by word of mouth legends repeated by locals. Watson was primarily known as a Native American folklorist, but it would be interesting to know more about her and her methods of collecting the treasure legends.

I agree...I'm fairly confident she got her stories from newspapers ala Jesse Rascoe. I have an idea on how to follow up but I'd have to travel to Arizona. The other issue s that even collected stories are a coin toss. Newspapers would delete information to make her columns fit where they are being placed. I've compared versions before and found subtle differences that can only be attributed to newspaper editing. 1935 was when her stuff started, prior to that I don't know of anyone doing treasure books save it be Dobie so I can only surmise that she was getting her sources from newspaper articles. that the bulk of her stories come from the same region of the country would bare that up as well.

 

[South Sea mariner]

A collection of 50 of Ms Watson's treasure articles would be a significant asset to own. I have researched one of them (The Golden Giant) that provided details that were not available elsewhere, to my knowledge, except by word of mouth legends repeated by locals. Watson was primarily known as a Native American folklorist, but it would be interesting to know more about her and her methods of collecting the treasure legends.

May years ago I read a magazine story about Giant skeletons found in South west USA absolutely fascinating.

The Following link might be interesting although some parts might be agenda driven, interesting all the same.

Mal

 

[Old Bookaroo]

SSM:

I don't know about giant skeletons - but your link appears to be a ghost.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Randy Bradford]

If memory serves me, The Golden Giant referred to a mine.

 

[mdog]

This article was part of a link that Sdcfia posted on one of his threads, yesterday. I thought I'd add it to Randy's thread, here. I don't know anything about these papers but, if somebody does, please post your information for us.

GET MCKENZIE!: The Treasure Mountain, the Beale Ciper and plagiarism

Does anybody know if there is any information, about this 4 page translation, on page 321 of the book"200 Trails to Gold"?

 

[South Sea mariner]

Does anybody know if there is any information, about this 4 page translation, on page 321 of the book"200 Trails to Gold"?

The book " 200 TRAILS TO GOLD" was first printed in 1976.

Here is a picture below of the book.



mal

 

[South Sea mariner]

Does anybody know if there is any information, about this 4 page translation, on page 321 of the book"200 Trails to Gold"?

I am a little confused.... But that does not take much these days...

According to this alleged document it was the actual 1861 translated copy by a Frenchman of the original 1756 document?

But it wasn't until 1867 that Christopher Latham Sholes of Milwaukee invented the first typewriter, later sold and turned into the successful Remington typewriter. An improved prototype by Sholes still sits in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History.

J A Bargabount did he actually exist? There would be a good chance of him existing in 1861 records would it not? one more thing if this J A Bargabount was one of the original French guys in 1756 isn't he a little too old be around in 1861 to typewrite a translation 105 years after the event on a type writer that did not exist until 6 years later?

Maybe a case of the author manufacturing evidence to flog books in 1976 to fit a pet theory? I am sure the Beale guys will sleep easy over this....

Mal

 

[mdog]

I am a little confused.... But that does not take much these days...

According to this alleged document it was the actual 1861 translated copy by a Frenchman of the original 1756 document?

But it wasn't until 1867 that Christopher Latham Sholes of Milwaukee invented the first typewriter, later sold and turned into the successful Remington typewriter. An improved prototype by Sholes still sits in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History.

J A Bargabount did he actually exist? There would be a good chance of him existing in 1861 records would it not? one more thing if this J A Bargabount was one of the original French guys in 1756 isn't he a little too old be around in 1861 to typewrite a translation 105 years after the event on a type writer that did not exist until 6 years later?

Maybe a case of the author manufacturing evidence to flog books in 1976 to fit a pet theory? I am sure the Beale guys will sleep easy over this....

Mal

I have some questions about this document too. It would be nice to talk to Frank Velarde Sr. and Jr. to see what they know about the document. It seems the document was translated at least twice, from French to Spanish and from Spanish to English. The written notes refer to Taos and Santa Fe but those two places are not mentioned in the translation. The date of 1756 isn't mentioned in the translation either, these things make me wonder if there might be more pages to the document. Also, anybody know what the Mexico Meridian is.

 

[kanabite]

I have some questions about this document too. It would be nice to talk to Frank Velarde Sr. and Jr. to see what they know about the document. It seems the document was translated at least twice, from French to Spanish and from Spanish to English. The written notes refer to Taos and Santa Fe but those two places are not mentioned in the translation. The date of 1756 isn't mentioned in the translation either, these things make me wonder if there might be more pages to the document. Also, anybody know what the Mexico Meridian is.

Heck pick one that works best , I guess that would depend on the when maybe .

https://books.google.com/books?id=D2GGBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=tenochtitlan+meridian&source=bl&ots=wszTyT0x1l&sig=PT4thdm6QfSpg7bmqngfKt_M0H4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4lvP_u6HRAhWhgVQKHa3sDo8Q6AEIIDAC#v=onepage&q=tenochtitlan%20meridian&f=false


The Chaco Meridian

https://books.google.com/books?id=dLRPAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA29&lpg=RA2-PA29&dq=teotihuacan+meridian&source=bl&ots=mzLZzA7BKv&sig=ft021jthv5ISOWBU6IGdOl9WHJU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjynanCwaHRAhXsyVQKHXg6BrYQ6AEIWDAR#v=onepage&q=teotihuacan%20meridian&f=false

The ancient monumental buildings. Incredible patterns | Encyclopedia of safety

 

[kanabite]

Hi m dog . The best guess I would have for your Mexican meridian would be where the temple mayor once sat. There's a big Catholic cathedral there now . Tenochtitlan was the center of the ruling class universe when the Spanish came. Tenochtitlan - Ancient History Encyclopedia

I can't remember the name of the cathedral and I've even Been there once but should be pretty easy to google earth it

 

[kanabite]

Are you talking about this ? https://www.meridianprocess.org
Boy I feel dumb

 

[mdog]

Hi Kanabite. I was kinda wondering if the document was talking about the New Mexico Principal Meridian which would have been 106° 53′ 40″ west. If this document was supposed to be relative to the Treasure Mountain legend, the location of one of the Treasure Mountains is on106 deg 49' 26" west. That would be the location in Mineral County, Colorado that author Maynard Adams wrote about in his Citadel Mountain books. If that's the case, the 1756 date doesn't make sense because the New Mexico Meridian wasn't established until 1855.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_meridian

Santa Claus spent a lot of money on the elves this Christmas but I might have to get a copy of 200 Trails to Gold.

 

[kanabite]

I'm still wondering about what Patrick said in another thread about using greenwich or some place in Spain to start . It's giving me a headache lmao

 

[PatrickD]

I'm still wondering about what Patrick said in another thread about using greenwich or some place in Spain to start . It's giving me a headache lmao

Greenwich is the current internationally accepted Prime Meridian from which all measurements are calculated against, or as a starting point. Prior to the international adoption of a set prime meridian accepted as Greenwich, countries and organizations (including masons, templars, and Jesuits) all used their own. This is why you have heard references to Greenwich Time in reference to a generally accepted starting point.

Having a Prime Meridian in another starting point, such as the founding chapel for the Jesuits, would be a strong indicator for the type and ownership of a cached site. Using that as a starting point when others are using England would encrypt the destination in celestial navigation.

The Prime Meridian is the starting point to count longitudinal time for navigational purposes. The Longitude assigned, let's say the 105 degree discussed in other threads, would be an arbitrary number depending where you started. If your count starts in Spain, your 105 is in a different physical location than if you started in Greenwich.

Another good example would be comparing it to driving directions. Let's say you have a starting point and are to drive 500 miles from that location in a westward direction. If your starting point is in Spain, the destination location is different than if you start in England. Obviously, I am not including water in this to cover the likelihood of not being able to drive across bodies of water. So, take a kayak for that.

We are also using modern logistical measurements to identify a location that might not have been the same to the originators. In the example above, we may refer to a longitude along the 105. The Spanish did not refer to it as the 105. Our 105 is based on Greenwich.

Another common issue was not accounting for declination during the navigation. (Declination is the variance between magnetic north and true north. The greater the distance traveled, the greater the distance from where one wants to be based on a map using true north and the direction followed using a compass.) Note: There are actually 3 north poles. Magnetic north, true north and the physical top of the world which varies slightly based on seasonality and earth rotation.

Any help? A more skilled navigator can provide better references or explanations to my generalizations.

P.

 

[South Sea mariner]

I have some questions about this document too. It would be nice to talk to Frank Velarde Sr. and Jr. to see what they know about the document. It seems the document was translated at least twice, from French to Spanish and from Spanish to English. The written notes refer to Taos and Santa Fe but those two places are not mentioned in the translation. The date of 1756 isn't mentioned in the translation either, these things make me wonder if there might be more pages to the document. Also, anybody know what the Mexico Meridian is.

Hello Mdog

This might be of interest. In regards to Frank Velarde SR and Jr. In the United States census records. There was a grain farmer called frank Velarde born 1890 in Mexico but lived in Gardner Colarado as a farmer in 1910. Frank Velarde JR was born in 1927 as per 1930 census.

It appears the father crossed over the border into Mexico and returned via Texas in 1962 . It appears he died in 1967. If this is correct father and son combination with this name in Colorado. The alleged document if it was prepared for both father and Son was prepared or typed some time between 1962 and 1967.

Of course if this is the correct father and son combination? As there was a father and son in California. They had a grand father that was a Spanish general. but which ones are actually connected to the document I leave that to you.

Mal

 

[South Sea mariner]

As I recall Spanish prime meridian was from the Royal Spanish observatory Madrid and The french Prime Meridian was Paris. If you making from a document originally written in French then perhaps with any direction its logic to look at the Paris prime Meridian.

Mal.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Magnetic variation is generally more worse toward north and south poles that affects compass bearing. There is another thing to consider all navigational sightings will never be 100% accurate. The earth is not exactly a sphere? It has a sight equatorial bulge that tappers to the poles. This when sighting a sextant like tool to a celestial body and the Horizon your calculation is always going to the out a little. As sea its even worse because everything is moving. With a sextant if you can get withing 60 km your doing well. Hell most officer on my ship has hardly if ever used a sextant these days. Computers and GPS can get you with in 3 m with a target. Any old chart will be actually out by several miles, unless the map has been made from a fixed bearings from a land mark.

Mal

 

[mdog]

Greenwich is the current internationally accepted Prime Meridian from which all measurements are calculated against, or as a starting point. Prior to the international adoption of a set prime meridian accepted as Greenwich, countries and organizations (including masons, templars, and Jesuits) all used their own. This is why you have heard references to Greenwich Time in reference to a generally accepted starting point.

Having a Prime Meridian in another starting point, such as the founding chapel for the Jesuits, would be a strong indicator for the type and ownership of a cached site. Using that as a starting point when others are using England would encrypt the destination in celestial navigation.

The Prime Meridian is the starting point to count longitudinal time for navigational purposes. The Longitude assigned, let's say the 105 degree discussed in other threads, would be an arbitrary number depending where you started. If your count starts in Spain, your 105 is in a different physical location than if you started in Greenwich.

Another good example would be comparing it to driving directions. Let's say you have a starting point and are to drive 500 miles from that location in a westward direction. If your starting point is in Spain, the destination location is different than if you start in England. Obviously, I am not including water in this to cover the likelihood of not being able to drive across bodies of water. So, take a kayak for that.

We are also using modern logistical measurements to identify a location that might not have been the same to the originators. In the example above, we may refer to a longitude along the 105. The Spanish did not refer to it as the 105. Our 105 is based on Greenwich.

Another common issue was not accounting for declination during the navigation. (Declination is the variance between magnetic north and true north. The greater the distance traveled, the greater the distance from where one wants to be based on a map using true north and the direction followed using a compass.) Note: There are actually 3 north poles. Magnetic north, true north and the physical top of the world which varies slightly based on seasonality and earth rotation.

Any help? A more skilled navigator can provide better references or explanations to my generalizations.

P.

Thanks Patrick. I think I get what you mean. The prime meridian can be wherever you choose it to be, is that right. So the Mexico meridian, described in the document, could be any meridian passing through Mexico and known only to the group of people who picked that meridian. Is that right?