sdcfia
Silver Member
- Sep 28, 2014
- 3,743
- 9,093
- Primary Interest:
- Other
Thanks much for the information, mdog. The French presence in North America is becoming a very fascinating subject for me.
Treasure Mountain, CO - Lost Frenchmens Gold
- Thread starter Randy Bradford
- Start date
Thanks much for the information, mdog. The French presence in North America is becoming a very fascinating subject for me.
Elliott_C
Jr. Member
I think we have two different legends going on there. The three men who found the gold bars and took some of them to town is the legend of Deadman's Cave. Details of that legend have the cave on the west side of the Sangre de Cristos, somewhere along Deadman's Creek.
The other legend is that of Spanish Cave (La Caverna del Oro) on Marble Mountain. That is on the east side of the Sangres.
I hiked up Deadman's Creek last fall looking for Deadman's Cave, and I also hiked up Marble Mountain looking for Spanish Cave. Sadly, I didn't find any caves of any sort, but given the information in this thread, I have to wonder if one of those legends is true, and the other is a total farce. Furthermore, if I was an 1800's prospector, and I found a cave with 1,000 pounds of gold on the east side of the mountains, I would probably tell people that it was on the west side so as to divert them away from the truth, and vice versa.
One question, though: The 1993 account about the Ortiz guy and the haunted tunnel on Treasure Mountain - is that story believed to be concocted by the writer who published it, or was there ever any follow up to it?
You're welcome, sdcfia. Many people know the French were active in the fur trade, but the French were also searching for precious metals and a water route to the Pacific. If more attention were given to the French archives from the colonial period, I'm sure there would be a lot of surprising information uncovered.
sdcfia
Silver Member
- Sep 28, 2014
- 3,743
- 9,093
- Primary Interest:
- Other
Marble Mountain Spanish Cave (w/coordinates, Maltese cross, other pics) Spanish Cave of Marble Mountain
Elliott_C
Jr. Member
Interesting. I believe that conflicts with the location of Spanish Cave in the book "The Essential Guide to The Great Sand Dunes National Park." Perhaps not, though. Maybe I just don't remember what the book says, but I thought for sure it said that it was on the left side of Spanish Gully and just bellow the limestone area. Now I'm all confused. Looks like I need to head back up there and not come down 'til I find it!
sdcfia
Silver Member
- Sep 28, 2014
- 3,743
- 9,093
- Primary Interest:
- Other
Good luck and please keep us informed about what things you might find and how you interpret them. I for one would like an explanation of whatever associations would link the cave to the Spanish, the French and the Knights of St John.
Chapter 3 starting on page 10 tells of some Knights of St. John influence in New France.
https://books.google.com/books?id=N...epage&q=knights of st john new france&f=false
After doing some brief research, it seems that most of the knights were French and that King Louis the XIV of France was a benefactor of the order. Louis the XIV was interested in seizing the Spanish mines of New Spain and some of the French exploration that took place in North America, during his reign, was undertaken with that in mind.
It also seems that there were very few Spanish Knights of St. John in colonial New Spain.
With that in mind, there might have been Knights approaching New Mexico from the north, probably following the Platte River into what is now northern Colorado.
This could be an interesting subject for research.
This is a description of a medal that the descendants of Louis de Villemont claim was awarded to him.
A French Cross of Honor, with the date 1693 inscribed (probably date of Order), is in
possession of DeVillemont's heir, Bynum 0. Blackmon, 105 Chula Vista, El Dorado, Ark.
It was awarded to Louis De Villemont probably sometime during the period from 1782 to
1792, which covers the period of his service in the Queens Bodyguard of Louis XVI and
Marie Antoinette. The Cross has four wings, each with two gold points. These are
gold, set in white enamel. The center is round, with engravings on both sides. One
side is a full-length figure of a King, engraved in gold, complete with a crown and
white ermine robe. Around the edge of the center are the letters: L U D M INST 1693.
The other side of the center is a gold sword standing on its point, with a wreath around
the blade, and on a background of red and gold. Around the edge of it are the letters:
KRIL VIRTUTIS HR AE M. Consideration should be taken, when reading this description,
that some of the letters are worn, and may not be exact.
Here is a link that shows, what I believe, is the medal he was awarded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Louis
You will notice that the Order of St. Louis was founded by King Louis XIV who was a benefactor of the Knights of St. John.
Here are examples of the cross of the Knights of St. John.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cross+of+knights+of+st.+john&rlz=1C1TSNO_enUS538US543&espv=2&biw=1082&bih=510&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxjc_t0-zMAhVIUVIKHWLaDs4QsAQINg
I don't know if this means that the Order of St. Louis was somehow connected to the Knights of St. John or did Louis XIV incorporate the Maltese Cross into the design of the Grand Cross of the Order of St. Louis. I'm not sure he would do that without the blessing of the Knights of St. John. And if there was a connection between the two orders, does that mean that Villemont was associated with the Knights of St. John?
Sdcfia, just to confirm, was the Maltese Cross carved at the entrance to the Spanish Cave?
A French Cross of Honor, with the date 1693 inscribed (probably date of Order), is in
possession of DeVillemont's heir, Bynum 0. Blackmon, 105 Chula Vista, El Dorado, Ark.
It was awarded to Louis De Villemont probably sometime during the period from 1782 to
1792, which covers the period of his service in the Queens Bodyguard of Louis XVI and
Marie Antoinette. The Cross has four wings, each with two gold points. These are
gold, set in white enamel. The center is round, with engravings on both sides. One
side is a full-length figure of a King, engraved in gold, complete with a crown and
white ermine robe. Around the edge of the center are the letters: L U D M INST 1693.
The other side of the center is a gold sword standing on its point, with a wreath around
the blade, and on a background of red and gold. Around the edge of it are the letters:
KRIL VIRTUTIS HR AE M. Consideration should be taken, when reading this description,
that some of the letters are worn, and may not be exact.
Here is a link that shows, what I believe, is the medal he was awarded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Louis
You will notice that the Order of St. Louis was founded by King Louis XIV who was a benefactor of the Knights of St. John.
Here are examples of the cross of the Knights of St. John.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cross+of+knights+of+st.+john&rlz=1C1TSNO_enUS538US543&espv=2&biw=1082&bih=510&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxjc_t0-zMAhVIUVIKHWLaDs4QsAQINg
I don't know if this means that the Order of St. Louis was somehow connected to the Knights of St. John or did Louis XIV incorporate the Maltese Cross into the design of the Grand Cross of the Order of St. Louis. I'm not sure he would do that without the blessing of the Knights of St. John. And if there was a connection between the two orders, does that mean that Villemont was associated with the Knights of St. John?
Sdcfia, just to confirm, was the Maltese Cross carved at the entrance to the Spanish Cave?
I don't know why the links didn't take. Just google Order of St. Louis and Cross of the Knights of St. John.
sdcfia
Silver Member
- Sep 28, 2014
- 3,743
- 9,093
- Primary Interest:
- Other
I haven't been there, so I can't say for certain. The descriptions I've read (and that one photo in the link I provided) indicate that the cross was painted, not carved. It seems to me that if the cross was painted on rock exposed to Colorado winters at 11,000 ft elevation (or colored with some sort of dye or mineral), it would not likely remain intact for more than two hundred years.
- Jun 27, 2004
- 551
- 1,010
- Thread starter
- #171
Not being familiar with Colorado at all, is this the same Treasure Mountain and perhaps its related?
Pagosa Springs, Colo.—The most unusual treasure-hunting expedition in the history of the state is now marching on Treasure mountain near hero firm In the belief that It has been delegated by God to unearth the famous bullion treasure buried centuries ago by Spanish soldiers fleeing from Mexico.
The party is made up of men, women and children and is much in the nature of a holy crusade with Spanish gold as the enemy to be captured. It started as the result of a dream or vision that came to one of the members of the Holy Rollers, an organization that has long maintained a settlement In Archuleta county.
One of the members of the camp In a vision perceived the spot where the treasure which has been hunted by hundreds of parties in the past was located. On coming from his trance ho drew a map of the mountain and marked the spot where he believed that the treasure could be found.
After conference the leaders of the congregation of Penitentes, as they are called in this country, decided that Providence has decreed that they should become treasure seekers.
After several days of prayer the entire community, men. women and children, set out for Treasure mountain. The party attracted much attention and all along its route people turned out to see the fanatics on the march.
When they reach the spot designated by the map it Is declared that they will dig in the vicinity all summer if necessary to unearth the gold which they are certain is buried there.
HUNT HIDDEN MILLIONS
DREAM CAUSES RELIGIOUS SECT TO SEEK TREASURE.
Holy Rollers Start Expedition to Unearth|Bullion Supposed to Have Been Buried By Spanish invaders.
Western Newspaper Union News Service. DREAM CAUSES RELIGIOUS SECT TO SEEK TREASURE.
Holy Rollers Start Expedition to Unearth|Bullion Supposed to Have Been Buried By Spanish invaders.
Pagosa Springs, Colo.—The most unusual treasure-hunting expedition in the history of the state is now marching on Treasure mountain near hero firm In the belief that It has been delegated by God to unearth the famous bullion treasure buried centuries ago by Spanish soldiers fleeing from Mexico.
The party is made up of men, women and children and is much in the nature of a holy crusade with Spanish gold as the enemy to be captured. It started as the result of a dream or vision that came to one of the members of the Holy Rollers, an organization that has long maintained a settlement In Archuleta county.
One of the members of the camp In a vision perceived the spot where the treasure which has been hunted by hundreds of parties in the past was located. On coming from his trance ho drew a map of the mountain and marked the spot where he believed that the treasure could be found.
After conference the leaders of the congregation of Penitentes, as they are called in this country, decided that Providence has decreed that they should become treasure seekers.
After several days of prayer the entire community, men. women and children, set out for Treasure mountain. The party attracted much attention and all along its route people turned out to see the fanatics on the march.
When they reach the spot designated by the map it Is declared that they will dig in the vicinity all summer if necessary to unearth the gold which they are certain is buried there.
sdcfia
Silver Member
- Sep 28, 2014
- 3,743
- 9,093
- Primary Interest:
- Other
I wonder if this is an offshoot the Los Hermanos Penitentes, the, uh, zealots from Northern New Mexico. These guys like to crucify each other, whip each other with thorn straps, and other fun stuff to cleanse their souls. A little corporal punishment might come in handy to motivate the guys when the digging gets tough.
Free use photo, NM State Records Center and Archives
Rebel - KGC
Gold Member
- Jun 15, 2007
- 21,663
- 14,726
Well, NOT my kind of "Gig"... WHEW!
audigger53
Hero Member
I also, I'll pass on that one.
PatrickD
Hero Member
- Jul 23, 2012
- 845
- 704
- Detector(s) used
- Garrett AT Pro
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Hi Randy,
I was looking at this very treasure lead today. (I recently relocated and now live in Colorado.)
There are some flaws in that story. I was trying to map it out in my topo software and there were some anomolies. For example:
A party of Canadians were trapping on the Snake River when they were discovered by American trappers, who attacked. In their hasty retreat, the Frenchmen lost their furs and traps to the Americans.
(The Snake river is in NW Colorado.)
Traveling south into western Colorado,
(Traveling south does not take one into western Colorado.)
one of the four found a gold nugget in the headwaters of the Gunnison River. Here they spent the next month successfully panning the gravel bars. Ute Indians discovered the Frenchmen and attacked them. In the running battle which lasted several days, three Frenchmen were killed. The fourth managed to escape over Cochetopa Pass (just west of Saguache).
(Cochetopa Pass has no mountain around it referred to as Round Mountain. There is a Round Mountain in another part of Colorado but that would conflict with the locations in this treasure lead. There is a 'Dome' on the mountain near Cochetopa Pass and perhaps that is the origin of the reference for Round Mountain.)
Sensing that his pursuers were closing in, he buried the gold on Round Mountain with the hopes of later returning for it. The Indians caught and killed the lone French-Canadian near the summit of Poncha Pass.”
(This is one of those common treasure lead tidbits that have always stymied me. I see these commonly in different leads. In this example, if the Indians caught and killed the last guy, who survived to tell the story that it was near Poncha Pass? Was the guy's body found there? It just gets to be murky water sometimes filtering out the embellishments, generalizations, modifications, etc., separating the fiction from the fact.
Maybe it is just me, but these types of facts seem unverifiable. If the guy sensed pursuers were closing in. He buries his gold to hide it. He gets caught and killed. I can see... maybe... that one of the attacking Indians told someone they got the interloper near Poncha Pass. Even so, who alive knew about the nuggets in the first place to make it back to where the legend could be told and passed down. Some of these treasure leads remind me of some kind of Encyclopedia Brown mystery to solve.)
I also got a subscription to Newspapers.com and try to find referenced newspaper articles embedded in a treasure lead. In this example, I could not find any newspaper article that referenced the stated facts.
Glad to see you are still around. (I was out at my LUE cache site doing some more field research a couple days ago. Moving to Colorado was a good thing.)
Patrick
I was looking at this very treasure lead today. (I recently relocated and now live in Colorado.)
There are some flaws in that story. I was trying to map it out in my topo software and there were some anomolies. For example:
A party of Canadians were trapping on the Snake River when they were discovered by American trappers, who attacked. In their hasty retreat, the Frenchmen lost their furs and traps to the Americans.
(The Snake river is in NW Colorado.)
Traveling south into western Colorado,
(Traveling south does not take one into western Colorado.)
one of the four found a gold nugget in the headwaters of the Gunnison River. Here they spent the next month successfully panning the gravel bars. Ute Indians discovered the Frenchmen and attacked them. In the running battle which lasted several days, three Frenchmen were killed. The fourth managed to escape over Cochetopa Pass (just west of Saguache).
(Cochetopa Pass has no mountain around it referred to as Round Mountain. There is a Round Mountain in another part of Colorado but that would conflict with the locations in this treasure lead. There is a 'Dome' on the mountain near Cochetopa Pass and perhaps that is the origin of the reference for Round Mountain.)
Sensing that his pursuers were closing in, he buried the gold on Round Mountain with the hopes of later returning for it. The Indians caught and killed the lone French-Canadian near the summit of Poncha Pass.”
(This is one of those common treasure lead tidbits that have always stymied me. I see these commonly in different leads. In this example, if the Indians caught and killed the last guy, who survived to tell the story that it was near Poncha Pass? Was the guy's body found there? It just gets to be murky water sometimes filtering out the embellishments, generalizations, modifications, etc., separating the fiction from the fact.
Maybe it is just me, but these types of facts seem unverifiable. If the guy sensed pursuers were closing in. He buries his gold to hide it. He gets caught and killed. I can see... maybe... that one of the attacking Indians told someone they got the interloper near Poncha Pass. Even so, who alive knew about the nuggets in the first place to make it back to where the legend could be told and passed down. Some of these treasure leads remind me of some kind of Encyclopedia Brown mystery to solve.)
I also got a subscription to Newspapers.com and try to find referenced newspaper articles embedded in a treasure lead. In this example, I could not find any newspaper article that referenced the stated facts.
Glad to see you are still around. (I was out at my LUE cache site doing some more field research a couple days ago. Moving to Colorado was a good thing.)
Patrick
Last edited:
PatrickD
Hero Member
- Jul 23, 2012
- 845
- 704
- Detector(s) used
- Garrett AT Pro
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Hi Randy,
I found a few more interesting additions on the old LUE map. There is a subject matter expert on celestial navigation out of England that I was conversing with awhile back. I showed him the map purely from the standpoint of being a celestial map. He was able to get into Colorado from England but too far away from the 105. In our discussions, it occurred to me that the prime meridian would have been in a country east at a certain religious group's HQ. He was using Greenwich. When he used the new prime meridian, bingo, right on the 105. Specifically, when he used the 105, he was able to navigate backwards like following a maze from the end to the beginning. He explained further celestial navigational symbols in the arrows and columns that would calculate it. He ended up at the identified prime meridian.
This opens up another target of research in that country's available archives.
Patrick
Also, we had indepth discussions about the curves on the map as well. They are isoperimetric curves used in celestial navigation. Dispels the old theory that they represented rivers.
0.
Elliott_C
Jr. Member
I believe, as a result of excellent, scholarly discussion in this thread, that we have determined this treasure legend to be a hoax, and have revealed that it is simply a colorful story thought up by a Denver journalist. The details escape me as I haven't looked back over the thread in quite some time, but I'm pretty sure that is the conclusion.
However, the basis for the legend - hidden/lost load(s) of French gold - is possibly true. Some of it was recovered by a later expedition (the second of two recovery expeditions?), but some of it was not . Where the remaining gold lies is anyone's guess, but I suspect it is in the Sangres.
This article was part of a link that Sdcfia posted on one of his threads, yesterday. I thought I'd add it to Randy's thread, here. I don't know anything about these papers but, if somebody does, please post your information for us.
GET MCKENZIE!: The Treasure Mountain, the Beale Ciper and plagiarism
GET MCKENZIE!: The Treasure Mountain, the Beale Ciper and plagiarism
Old Bookaroo
Silver Member
- Dec 4, 2008
- 4,475
- 3,801
Just for the record - I believe "Xanthus Carson" was one of the many pen names used by Gladwell Richardson (aka "Maurice Kildare").
KvonM wrote about a series of lost mine articles written by a woman for a wire service (something to do with "Phantom" in the title) published by several Colorado newspapers in the 1930's. He said modern treasure yarns are based on these pieces. When I first started reading this thread I thought one of hers was the seed. I'll look this up and see if I can come up with more information.
2.0:
Steamboat Pilot May 26, 1938
Good luck to all,
The Old Bookaroo
KvonM wrote about a series of lost mine articles written by a woman for a wire service (something to do with "Phantom" in the title) published by several Colorado newspapers in the 1930's. He said modern treasure yarns are based on these pieces. When I first started reading this thread I thought one of hers was the seed. I'll look this up and see if I can come up with more information.
2.0:
Steamboat Pilot May 26, 1938
Good luck to all,
The Old Bookaroo
Last edited:
- Jun 27, 2004
- 551
- 1,010
- Thread starter
- #180
Good to hear from you again Fred. The woman you are talking about is not Editha Watson. Watson wrote those articles in the mid 1930s and they were part of a series that were syndicated throughout the country. I've seen those "Golden Phantoms" articles in papers from one coast to the other during that period. I've managed to collect about 50 of them and transcribe them. Editha went on to write a great many papers and books about the Navajos and appears to have been well regarded in this discipline.
The woman you are referring to was named Sarah Rasbaugh and she actually lived in New York as i recall. That was Karl's big gripe was she wrote her material on treasure stories without ever stepping foot in the Southwest. I'd have to look, perhaps Journals of Eldorado has her, but she wrote two books on the Anza-Borrego Desert in California. Both were books on the Aztecs and her belief they had been in California, I have never confirmed either book exists and know of at least one collector who has it on his wish list. Karl, I believe, felt the Lost Pearl Ship of the Desert story was directly attributable to Rasbaugh and that it was was purely fictional and created by her purely from imagination.
Xanthus Carson, I always assumed that was a pen name for H. Glenn Carson, I'd have to do some checking. Maurice Kildare and his many aliases tended to use lots of photographs in his stories so his handiwork is usually pretty easy to spot. I beleive there wasa good sized article in the Treasure Hunters Confidential about Gladwell Richardson that outlined nearly 30 pen names he used. Other known pen names include:
Maurice Kildare (and Kildaresen)
Ormand Clarkson (and Klarkson)
Cary James
Pete Kent
Calico Jones
George Blacksnake
Frank Warner
John "R. Winslowe (and Winslow)
Warren O'Riley
Sinclair Bower
Buck Coleman
Jeff Corner
Robert Davis
Stuart Flag
M.I. Ford
John S. Haines
Lolliard (?)
Jack Lowence
Charles McAdams
Grant Maxwell
Higgs Meador
Asdzani Noodi Naalte
Earl Price
"Toney" Richardson (as he was often called)
John Robert Ringo
Don Teton.
Top Member Reactions
-
3488 -
2073 -
1984 -
1141 -
1139 -
923 -
840 -
811 -
806 -
783 -
754 -
535 -
499 -
464 -
446 -
422 -
416 -
E
413
-
412 -
405
