Trail Signs and Monuments-Spanish or Somebody Else

[mdog]

There are these carvings that have been discovered around the western united states that are in that video. It seems no one knows who put them there our what they mean I sure would like to find out what they mean and who did it.

I spent some time looking at these and I think the best clue, for solving the mystery, is that petroglyph of the capital M and the eye right below it that Sdcfia posted on post #55.

 

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[releventchair]

Thanks Sdc.

I was thinking about those arrastras you guys find in the field. I read an article that said the gold ore could be crushed in the arrastra until it was reduced to a powder and, with the absence of quicksilver, it could be panned to remove the heavy gold. So, after that would you melt the panned gold in a field furnace and pour it into molds?

Also, I read that silver is found in small amounts with other metals. Is that why silver recovery is less efficient than gold. Can you reduce silver down like you can gold, with the other metals present?

What I'm looking for is a way to date silver bars found in a cache or determine if you can debunk a legend that includes Spanish silver bars. I've posted the Spanish Fight article before and it tells how Indians attacked a group of Spanish miners as they were moving silver ore in a pack train.

The Spanish Fight

I read another article that claims some of this silver ore was recovered and used to salt a claim in Illinois.

If a large group of Spanish were moving that much silver ore, I would guess that they were packing it as ore because they couldn't make bars in the field. Or, they were obeying the law and taking it back to Mexico to be refined by an authorized smelter.

Everybody jump in, if you like. You can tell I don't know anything about mining.

Enough about mining to get myself in trouble maybe...

The "patio process" , using mercury began around 1554.
Prior , smelting was done heating ore to extract silver.High grade ore was the desired deal. And less high grade was still being mined then.
The lower grade ores remaining meant less efficient extraction. Plus "The New Laws Of The Indies" took native American Indians off the table as semi slave laborers...
Silver production was not doing good.
The patio process got it going again.

That does not end previous methods. Does not ensure previous methods continued , but smelters were the end of the trail for ore regardless of its form prior.


Most ore was likely taken to a smelter pre patio process. Find a furnace/smelter in the bush and bars could have resulted. At risk of being caught though ,and dependent on fuel and labor , food for that labor ,ect...

Lots of reading here...
http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webclient/StreamGate?folder_id=0&dvs=1548650105375~770

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Thanks Sdc.

I was thinking about those arrastras you guys find in the field. I read an article that said the gold ore could be crushed in the arrastra until it was reduced to a powder and, with the absence of quicksilver, it could be panned to remove the heavy gold. So, after that would you melt the panned gold in a field furnace and pour it into molds?

Also, I read that silver is found in small amounts with other metals. Is that why silver recovery is less efficient than gold. Can you reduce silver down like you can gold, with the other metals present?

What I'm looking for is a way to date silver bars found in a cache or determine if you can debunk a legend that includes Spanish silver bars. I've posted the Spanish Fight article before and it tells how Indians attacked a group of Spanish miners as they were moving silver ore in a pack train.

The Spanish Fight

I read another article that claims some of this silver ore was recovered and used to salt a claim in Illinois.

If a large group of Spanish were moving that much silver ore, I would guess that they were packing it as ore because they couldn't make bars in the field. Or, they were obeying the law and taking it back to Mexico to be refined by an authorized smelter.

Everybody jump in, if you like. You can tell I don't know anything about mining.

There is a chapter in my book, about silver “dirty “bars.

About twenty miles south of my house, there was a pack train that was attacked in a creek crossing and a few mules were lost and silver lost.

Later on, down stream a few miles, a farmer was plowing a plot close to the creek. He hit several of these metallic bars and threw them into a pile.

Here is the link to this story...

This farmer was the father of a lady that my first partner knew when she was an elderly lady, and my partner was a young man.

He told me this story, that she had told him.

She had watched her father throwing the chunks of unknown material, and kicking the ground in frustration.

Here parents talked about it while eating supper, but she didn’t understand what it was about.

The next day a neighbor stopped by, on his way to town to see if they needed anything.

The man and her father talked then they went down to the creek and looked at the pile. They came up and took his wagon to the creek and loaded it up and they all went to town.

What she remembered most clearly was that she and the rest of the family got new shoes and brand new, Sunday clothes and Mom got a new cook stove.

My partner, Jim explained that the creek was in narrow banks where the old story about the silver was lost and that the farm was in the first open area for the water to loose speed and allow heavy objects to fall out of the flow during heavy flooding. So the bars were never going to be moved again by water.

The bars were not what we generally think of when we hear, silver bars.

They were made from low quality ore and poured into trenches carved into the ground, and when cooled they were pulled out and more were poured.

They were then shipped via pack mule , to another location to be purified and marked etc...

?? Were all of the parts of the story true and correct, that Jim told me

I have never had a reason to doubt him, and I have been his friend for most of my life.

I believe that your earlier posts seem to follow the same process and patterns.

#/;0{>~

 

[releventchair]

Not saying anyone did...But bars were held accounted for once created through proper channels.
Ore? If being transported a distance to a smelter could be high graded. A couple choice samples pinched and squirreled away. Enough trips and a couple samples per trip adds up.

How long such a cache remained would depend on multiple factors.

Piecework production I labored at a while had tickets/tags on each lot of parts. At shifts end tickets showed parts processed. On my process anyway.
Breaking rate was not good , so on a good day some tickets were "banked". Then rotated the next day with fresh tickets.
At weeks end on a good week , no parts had to be processed and rate was met.....

I doubt ore could be "banked" , but if the scale at delivery site was not accurate enough to note a couple choice oz's ,or poorer ore from other deliveries or smuggled out of a pile pre shipment weighing.......

But where to hide the cache , and when and where to get rid of it , or to extract the precious metal ; remains.

 

[releventchair]

There is a chapter in my book, about silver “dirty “bars.

About twenty miles south of my house, there was a pack train that was attacked in a creek crossing and a few mules were lost and silver lost.

Later on, down stream a few miles, a farmer was plowing a plot close to the creek. He hit several of these metallic bars and threw them into a pile.

Here is the link to this story...

This farmer was the father of a lady that my first partner knew when she was an elderly lady, and my partner was a young man.

He told me this story, that she had told him.

She had watched her father throwing the chunks of unknown material, and kicking the ground in frustration.

Here parents talked about it while eating supper, but she didn’t understand what it was about.

The next day a neighbor stopped by, on his way to town to see if they needed anything.

The man and her father talked then they went down to the creek and looked at the pile. They came up and took his wagon to the creek and loaded it up and they all went to town.

What she remembered most clearly was that she and the rest of the family got new shoes and brand new, Sunday clothes and Mom got a new cook stove.

My partner, Jim explained that the creek was in narrow banks where the old story about the silver was lost and that the farm was in the first open area for the water to loose speed and allow heavy objects to fall out of the flow during heavy flooding. So the bars were never going to be moved again by water.

The bars were not what we generally think of when we hear, silver bars.

They were made from low quality ore and poured into trenches carved into the ground, and when cooled they were pulled out and more were poured.

They were then shipped via pack mule , to another location to be purified and marked etc...

?? Were all of the parts of the story true and correct, that Jim told me

I have never had a reason to doubt him, and I have been his friend for most of my life.

I believe that your earlier posts seem to follow the same process and patterns.

#/;0{>~

Awesome!
Which begs the question(s) , where were those bars coming from , and where were they headed?

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

They were headed south.
But where did they originate?

There is silver in Madison County according to court records of the trial of two counterfeiters that were caught because the coins that they were making were of better silver than the silver coins from the mints.
The records stated that they both said that the mine was was within a half day walk from the court house.

Nobody ever got them to give the location, and they didn’t come back to Madison County when they got out of prison.

“Good speed report for Madison County Arkansas “


#/;0{>~

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks Sdc.

I was thinking about those arrastras you guys find in the field. I read an article that said the gold ore could be crushed in the arrastra until it was reduced to a powder and, with the absence of quicksilver, it could be panned to remove the heavy gold. So, after that would you melt the panned gold in a field furnace and pour it into molds?

Also, I read that silver is found in small amounts with other metals. Is that why silver recovery is less efficient than gold. Can you reduce silver down like you can gold, with the other metals present?

What I'm looking for is a way to date silver bars found in a cache or determine if you can debunk a legend that includes Spanish silver bars. I've posted the Spanish Fight article before and it tells how Indians attacked a group of Spanish miners as they were moving silver ore in a pack train.

The Spanish Fight

I read another article that claims some of this silver ore was recovered and used to salt a claim in Illinois.

If a large group of Spanish were moving that much silver ore, I would guess that they were packing it as ore because they couldn't make bars in the field. Or, they were obeying the law and taking it back to Mexico to be refined by an authorized smelter.

Everybody jump in, if you like. You can tell I don't know anything about mining.

Great story, dog, I think you've posted it before re origins of the Winnebagos being in the Southwest.

OK, the packtrain load was called "whitestone". This changes things a bit. As releventchair states in Post #142, silver was generally extracted from silver-bearing ore using the patio process, which required crushing the rock then spreading the fines in a big shallow rock basin mixed with water, mercury and salt to reduce the mess to more concentrated silver slimes. It took quite a while because the stew had to be stirred and mixed numerous times. Recovery percentage was fair to middling. Then the stuff was smelted. It was tedious. That's why I speculated that Spanish prospectors so far away from Mexico were much more likely to be seeking gold. It was easier and promised a better payoff if they were successful.

However, these miners in the story may well have found a deposit of native silver in their travels. From the historical account, it seems quite likely the miners were ambushed somewhere in southern CO, where native silver (pure metal) has a significant history all over the mining districts there. As you can see by the photo (from Creede CO), the stuff could well be called whitestone in its original form. If this was the case (speculation), the miners would not have needed to treat or smelt their find, since it was already pure out of the ground. Just pack up their lucky find and go home. As far as your cache is concerned, wherever the Winnebagos dumped it "in the woods", the stuff soon became tarnished black, wherever it was dumped.

 

[cyzak]

I have been looking for and Arrastra above Ouray Colorado that was either Spanish or Mexican but I have not located it yet it was in an area the they call the amphitheater. If you locate one of these there was a rich deposit nearby they did not build these for nothing same goes with the smelter.

 

[cyzak]

I spent some time looking at these and I think the best clue, for solving the mystery, is that petroglyph of the capital M and the eye right below it that Sdcfia posted on post #55.

I believe I know what that sign is but at this time I can not give any information on it because it ties into what I am looking for.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Thanks Mikel. I posted the link on post 49. Here it is. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ael1949.0001.001;view=1up;seq=3

It took me an hour to read the index.

Hope you're feeling better.

Thanks Mdog, and I am a bit better. Thanks for the link. I tried to read it on my phone..... bad idea.
The print was way too small. I finally downloaded the pdf version and have been reading it on my laptop. It is amazing and in parts it is downright comical, as they realized that they had turned everyone loose to find and work mines with no need to report them nor pay the crown their dues!

It seemed as if the village idiot had inherited the crown and had to eat his hat and rewrite the laws again..,
I had to stop reading for a while, but wanted to thank you for posting the link.

#/;0{>~

 

[White Heart]

I've tracked some old trails in the past. It's amazing how much you learn when you get out in the field and check out the terrain yourself. The trail I tracked was an old trade trail that followed a sandy bluff along a river. The trail was just below the bluff so you couldn't be seen from the prairie. All the sand drains the rain water so they had a dry trail and campsites.

mdog,
Following old trails I read about or see on old maps has been one of my life's joys, also. Lumholtz's "Unknown Mexico" was my inspiration and guide to explore from Basasciache, Chihuahua to La Bufa, in the Barranca del Cobre, exiting the Barranca at San Rafael.
I once followed a road shown on a 1765 map that went through country that presently has no road. It was a 40mile walk. All I had was a hat and a pocket knife, but I found a spring or a tank every hour or so and some beautiful rockwork along steep, wall clinging inclines.
Keep on truckin! You never know what's around the next corner.
WH

 

[sdcfia]

I have been looking for and Arrastra above Ouray Colorado that was either Spanish or Mexican but I have not located it yet it was in an area the they call the amphitheater. If you locate one of these there was a rich deposit nearby they did not build these for nothing same goes with the smelter.

I lived in Ouray in 1974. I remember the Amphitheater. I hope you're looking in the bowl, because those mountainsides around it are a killer. Good luck.

 

[sdcfia]

I believe I know what that sign is but at this time I can not give any information on it because it ties into what I am looking for.

Here's some more on that carving: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...-these-bars-should-not-exist.html#post6074895

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I just got off the phone with MDOG.

He is away from his computer for a few days.

He is in the hospital, dealing with a health issue that returns every year or two. He expects to be home in a few days.

He asked me if I would let everyone know, so that we would not think that he had abandoned us.

He gave a sigh of relief when I told him that he is in my prayers.

I offered to pass on that he would appreciate any prayers, so if you have a faith, your prayers will touch him.

He is a pretty nice guy, to worry about us, from a hospital bed.

 

[cyzak]

I hope mdog a speedy recovery and back soon.

 

[cyzak]

I lived in Ouray in 1974. I remember the Amphitheater. I hope you're looking in the bowl, because those mountainsides around it are a killer. Good luck.

One problem with Ouray is it is so well traveled know that it is tough to distinguish any thing any more people have destroyed some much stuff intentionally and unintentionally I am afraid it is lost to time. One thing about the mineral structure around that area the higher you go up the mountain the better it gets.

 

[releventchair]

Prayer for ya mdog.
If you feel you're getting poked with a stick ...It's working.

Hang in there.

 

[sdcfia]

Hey dog, good thoughts coming your way.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Prayer for ya mdog.
If you feel you're getting poked with a stick ...It's working.

Hang in there.

With sticky friends prayers like that, I'd be a thinkin' hard...
But what kinda' pokey knight mares would really need 'em...
...

Best wishes from here too mdog, hope ya' get healed up real soon...

 

[Quinoa]

Sorry to hear, I hope you are doing ok Mdog. Health and life are the biggest treasures we can ever hope for or have.