Trail Signs and Monuments-Spanish or Somebody Else

[releventchair]

The later cattlemen built cairns along trails too.

 

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[sdcfia]

And again, here is the Camino Real from Mexico City to St. Louis. This trail goes through a huge silver producing area at San Luis Potosi.

View attachment 1674539

View attachment 1674540

That Potosi mining district has been the world's greatest silver producer since Spanish days, and still is today. This fact alone sheds doubt on the general belief that the Spanish did such extensive mining in today's USA. They did some, of course, and the Mexicans did more after Independence as the population began to move further north. Expeditions into the Northern Frontier and beyond was a very risky and expensive option for the Spanish mining contractors, when to me, a better option seems to have been sticking with Potosi - a relatively sure thing.

 

[sdcfia]

The later cattlemen built cairns along trails too.

So did the military, surveyors and other settlers.

 

[mdog]

Here is the Spanish El Camino Real in Florida. There is a mention, in this article, about a suggestion to transport silver coins overland from Vera Cruz, Mexico to St. Augustine, Florida.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Camino_Real_(Florida)

View attachment 1674538

It seems that the Royal subsidies were sent to St. Augustine by sea and there were losses because of pirates and shipwrecks during storms.

Here's something else to consider, when looking for bullion trails.

While it is thus true that the missions were supported to a very
considerable degree by the royal treasury, it is just as plain that the
amount of government aid, and the ease with which it was secured,

depended largely upon the extent to which political ends could be
combined with religious purposes.

The importance of political necessity in loosening the royal
purse-strings is seen at every turn in the history of Spanish North
America. Knowing the strength of a political appeal, the friars
always made use of it in their requests for permission and aid.
While the monarchs ever used pious phrases, and praised the
work of the padres — without hypocrisy no doubt — the royal pocket-
book was not readily opened to found new missions unless there
was an important political as well as a religious object to be gained.


Striking examples of this fact are found in the histories of
Texas and California. The missionaries of the northern frontier
had long had their eyes on the " Kingdom of the Texas " as a
promising field of labor, and had even appealed to the government
for aid in cultivating it. But in vain, till La Salle planted a French
colony at Matagorda Bay. Then the royal treasury was opened,
and funds were provided for missions in eastern Texas. The
French danger passed for the moment, and the missions were with-
drawn. Then for another decade Father Hidalgo appealed in vain
for funds and permission to re-establish the missions. But when
St. Denis, agent of the French governor of Louisiana, intruded
himself into Coahuila, the Spanish government at once gave liberal
support for the refounding of the missions, to aid in restraining the
French.


The case was the same for California. Since the time of Viz-
caino the missionaries had clamored for aid and for permission to
found missions at San Diego and Monterey. In 1620 Father As-
cension, who had been with Vizcaino eighteen years before, wrote,
" I do not know what security His Majesty can have in his con-
science for delaying so long to send ministers of the Gospel to this
realm of California", and, during the next century and a half, a
hundred others echoed this admonition. But all to no purpose till
the Russian Bear began to amble or to threaten to amble down the
Pacific Coast. Then money was forthcoming — partly from the con-
fiscated Pious Fund, it is true — and then missionaries were sent to
help hold the country for the crown.

https://archive.org/stream/jstor-1837685/1837685_djvu.txt

So, the gold and silver not only moved to Mexico City, along the bullion trails, they also moved back to the frontier as silver pesos.

 

[cyzak]

I've spent quite a bit of time up on Continental Divide trail there are some very big cairns and small ones up there along its path.

 

[mdog]

I would like you people who know about Spanish mining law to take a look at this and tell me what it means.

"Art. 77. Also, we ordain and command, that no person
shall presume to treat for, contract, sell or purchase gold
in dust, or bars, or ingots (rieles), without being stamped
with our Royal stamp; which we command to be kept by
the person who shall be appointed in our name to collect
the proportion which to us may belong: and that there
shall also be a smelter who shall smelt and make bars
(vergas) of the gold which shall be taken out, and who
shall also act as the Trusty to weigh it ( Fil del Peso), and
he shall smelt, weigh and stamp the same with our Royal
stamp aforesaid, in the presence of our said Administrator,
or in the presence of the person appointed by him, and
the proportion which shall belong to us shall be given
and delivered to our Treasurer who for that purpose shall
have been designated, and the remainder shall be deliv
ered to the owner; and the said Treasurer shall keep a
book wherein he shall enter the said parcels, with the day,
month and year, and also whose gold it is, from what Mine
it came, and how much there is, and what proportion belongs to us, of what the said Treasurer has taken charge,
and what has been given to the owner of said parcel,
which shall be signed by the said Treasurer, and by the
said party, if he know how to write, and if not, then by
some other person for him, and by the smelter and the:Notary before whom it is passed; which said Notary shall
keep a book in which the same shall be entered, and he
shall sign it, as aforesaid; and no person shall be at liberty
to sell or contract for said gold, unless it shall have been
smelted and marked as aforesaid, under the penalty prescribed in the ordinance with regard to silver which relates
to this subject, and the like penalty shall be incurred by
him who shall purchase or contract for it, as is prescribed
in said ordinance in regard to silver."

It seems to me that they want all gold to be taken to an authorized place to be smelted and stamped.

 

[sdcfia]

I've spent quite a bit of time up on Continental Divide trail there are some very big cairns and small ones up there along its path.

It's a common tradition for hikers to mark the CDT with rock cairns along the way, usually where the trail is not well established.

 

[cyzak]

It's a common tradition for hikers to mark the CDT with rock cairns along the way, usually where the trail is not well established.

LOL I know there is know way in telling who put them there but some of them are pretty impressive its one of those moments were you wish you had a time machine that is why it is so madding about this type of exploration the prove it.

 

[cyzak]

This was how the King could keep control of his gold this makes it so you can not run around with unprocessed gold.The place you need to find is were they did this processing of the gold.

 

[releventchair]

For lack of anything else to add at the moment.....
Carl Von Mueller (?) wrote of
quills" of gold being recovered in the ruins of a mission. Think it was Carl anyways.

Carl's credibility can be challenged as much as anyone's , but it made me curios about quills and who and whys of their being hidden.
I thought those from the mission were sewn leather.
Then in looking for other references to quills found this... Vague as it is about credibility , multiple references arouse curiosity. There is mention of Aztecs with gold filled quills here somewhere. Elsewhere along with them were bags of cacao. Which led me to a T-Net thread about Aztec money.( http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/aztec-gold/229966-pictures-aztec-money-2.html)


Was There Gold In Them Thar Quills? | CALIFORNIA CONDOR: PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE

 

[sdcfia]

This was how the King could keep control of his gold this makes it so you can not run around with unprocessed gold.The place you need to find is where they did this processing of the gold.

Absolutely correct. The Spanish were extreme bureaucrats - their bean counters kept close records of all the details. By the marks on the bars, they knew who recovered it and since they also controlled all the mercury that the contractors needed to concentrate the ore, they also knew pretty much what their tax share should be, and they expected to be paid in Mexico.

Treasure hunters' only hopes for finding "lost gold bars" would be legitimate mining contractors never returned to Spanish authorities for some reason. If that was the case, we wouldn't know exactly where to look for their lost party, except in very general terms, as their claims were registered in mining districts with no specific locations given. THers wouldn't know if the missing miners had a successful mine or not - they would have just never returned.

Free-agent miners theoretically could have operated illegally, totally under the radar with no records kept and no marks on any bars they recovered. The whole thing would have been a covert black market deal, although getting mercury to process the ore would have been extremely difficult for them. Their smelted bars would have been low grade as a result.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

What and excellent interview thank you for posting that Crosse De Sign seems there was a lot of activity in that area by the Spanish mining and smelting and building vaults to hide there silver and gold.

Thanks for bringing it to my (our) attention, LOL...

 

[mdog]

Absolutely correct. The Spanish were extreme bureaucrats - their bean counters kept close records of all the details. By the marks on the bars, they knew who recovered it and since they also controlled all the mercury that the contractors needed to concentrate the ore, they also knew pretty much what their tax share should be, and they expected to be paid in Mexico.

Treasure hunters' only hopes for finding "lost gold bars" would be legitimate mining contractors never returned to Spanish authorities for some reason. If that was the case, we wouldn't know exactly where to look for their lost party, except in very general terms, as their claims were registered in mining districts with no specific locations given. THers wouldn't know if the missing miners had a successful mine or not - they would have just never returned.

Free-agent miners theoretically could have operated illegally, totally under the radar with no records kept and no marks on any bars they recovered. The whole thing would have been a covert black market deal, although getting mercury to process the ore would have been extremely difficult for them. Their smelted bars would have been low grade as a result.

Sdc, I have a hypothetical scenario, maybe you can help me figure it out. Suppose I'm out in the mountains and I find a H.O.T. (Heart, Owl, Triangle) site. I figure out the puzzle and actually find a stack of bullion bars hidden in a vault. While following the monuments to the treasure vault, there are several 18th century Spanish artifacts laying on the ground. Is it more likely that the bars are going to be gold, or silver?

I guess what I want to know is, if you have a primitive recovery operation, in the wilderness, is it going to be easier to produce silver bars from silver ore or gold bars from gold ore?

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I would like you people who know about Spanish mining law to take a look at this and tell me what it means.

"Art. 77. Also, we ordain and command, that no person
shall presume to treat for, contract, sell or purchase gold
in dust, or bars, or ingots (rieles), without being stamped
with our Royal stamp; which we command to be kept by
the person who shall be appointed in our name to collect
the proportion which to us may belong: and that there
shall also be a smelter who shall smelt and make bars
(vergas) of the gold which shall be taken out, and who
shall also act as the Trusty to weigh it ( Fil del Peso), and
he shall smelt, weigh and stamp the same with our Royal
stamp aforesaid, in the presence of our said Administrator,
or in the presence of the person appointed by him, and
the proportion which shall belong to us shall be given
and delivered to our Treasurer who for that purpose shall
have been designated, and the remainder shall be deliv
ered to the owner; and the said Treasurer shall keep a
book wherein he shall enter the said parcels, with the day,
month and year, and also whose gold it is, from what Mine
it came, and how much there is, and what proportion belongs to us, of what the said Treasurer has taken charge,
and what has been given to the owner of said parcel,
which shall be signed by the said Treasurer, and by the
said party, if he know how to write, and if not, then by
some other person for him, and by the smelter and the:Notary before whom it is passed; which said Notary shall
keep a book in which the same shall be entered, and he
shall sign it, as aforesaid; and no person shall be at liberty
to sell or contract for said gold, unless it shall have been
smelted and marked as aforesaid, under the penalty prescribed in the ordinance with regard to silver which relates
to this subject, and the like penalty shall be incurred by
him who shall purchase or contract for it, as is prescribed
in said ordinance in regard to silver."

It seems to me that they want all gold to be taken to an authorized place to be smelted and stamped.

MDOG, that’s the most convincing quote that I have read , demonstrating that there was, and still remains, a control system that has an historical authority over the handling of precious metals in the new world [emoji289]!

Article 77, implies that there are at least 76 other articles....

Good work, amigo!

#/;0{>~

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Oh and by the way. I drove over a short stretch of the Butterfield Coach trail today.


Shortly after I took that photo, the street turned westward and I was curious what happened to the trail, so after getting home I checked it out.

I used my map app and set it to the satellite view and was able to trace the trail several more blocks and then, off and on I could see bits and pieces that were still on the same northernly heading.

I lost it and the old wire road, as they lead into, Cross Hollows, which was an important strategic location during the Civil War.

#/;0{>~

 

[cyzak]

Thanks for bringing it to my (our) attention, LOL...

There are these carvings that have been discovered around the western united states that are in that video. It seems no one knows who put them there our what they mean I sure would like to find out what they mean and who did it.

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc, I have a hypothetical scenario, maybe you can help me figure it out. Suppose I'm out in the mountains and I find a H.O.T. (Heart, Owl, Triangle) site. I figure out the puzzle and actually find a stack of bullion bars hidden in a vault. While following the monuments to the treasure vault, there are several 18th century Spanish artifacts laying on the ground. Is it more likely that the bars are going to be gold, or silver?

I guess what I want to know is, if you have a primitive recovery operation, in the wilderness, is it going to be easier to produce silver bars from silver ore or gold bars from gold ore?

Hmmm ... I assume you are searching in today's USA southwest, and not Mexico, during the Spanish era. If so, I would say your cache would much more likely be gold because since gold has a much greater value, it is a more desirable prospecting target. The gold recovery process was also more efficient than that for silver.

 

[mdog]

MDOG, that’s the most convincing quote that I have read , demonstrating that there was, and still remains, a control system that has an historical authority over the handling of precious metals in the new world [emoji289]!

Article 77, implies that there are at least 76 other articles....

Good work, amigo!

#/;0{>~

Thanks Mikel. I posted the link on post 49. Here it is. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ael1949.0001.001;view=1up;seq=3

It took me an hour to read the index.

Hope you're feeling better.

 

[mdog]

Oh and by the way. I drove over a short stretch of the Butterfield Coach trail today.
View attachment 1675241

Shortly after I took that photo, the street turned westward and I was curious what happened to the trail, so after getting home I checked it out.

I used my map app and set it to the satellite view and was able to trace the trail several more blocks and then, off and on I could see bits and pieces that were still on the same northernly heading.

I lost it and the old wire road, as they lead into, Cross Hollows, which was an important strategic location during the Civil War.

#/;0{>~

I've tracked some old trails in the past. It's amazing how much you learn when you get out in the field and check out the terrain yourself. The trail I tracked was an old trade trail that followed a sandy bluff along a river. The trail was just below the bluff so you couldn't be seen from the prairie. All the sand drains the rain water so they had a dry trail and campsites.

 

[mdog]

Hmmm ... I assume you are searching in today's USA southwest, and not Mexico, during the Spanish era. If so, I would say your cache would much more likely be gold because since gold has a much greater value, it is a more desirable prospecting target. The gold recovery process was also more efficient than that for silver.

Thanks Sdc.

I was thinking about those arrastras you guys find in the field. I read an article that said the gold ore could be crushed in the arrastra until it was reduced to a powder and, with the absence of quicksilver, it could be panned to remove the heavy gold. So, after that would you melt the panned gold in a field furnace and pour it into molds?

Also, I read that silver is found in small amounts with other metals. Is that why silver recovery is less efficient than gold. Can you reduce silver down like you can gold, with the other metals present?

What I'm looking for is a way to date silver bars found in a cache or determine if you can debunk a legend that includes Spanish silver bars. I've posted the Spanish Fight article before and it tells how Indians attacked a group of Spanish miners as they were moving silver ore in a pack train.

The Spanish Fight

I read another article that claims some of this silver ore was recovered and used to salt a claim in Illinois.

If a large group of Spanish were moving that much silver ore, I would guess that they were packing it as ore because they couldn't make bars in the field. Or, they were obeying the law and taking it back to Mexico to be refined by an authorized smelter.

Everybody jump in, if you like. You can tell I don't know anything about mining.