Trail Signs and Monuments-Spanish or Somebody Else

[sdcfia]

Yes, the Davenport Tablets were found in a couple of mounds, but were determined to be fakes. They were planted in the mound by jealous colleagues of the guy who was excavating the mounds.

Aha. When I was a kid in Des Moines, I remember a lady in the State museum near the capital building said they had some Egyptian-looking things in the basement, but never displayed them because they were too different. It seems like there are several examples of this sort of thing, some of the alleged discoveries very outrageous, like Burrows Cave in IL and of course Kinkaid's Grand Canyon cave. Others not so outrageous, like that carved rock egg in CO, or the Lovelock Cave in NV. Some of the true hoaxes are exposed and documented, with confessions from the hoaxers. Other anomalies are just flat denied by the experts. Us - it's impossible for us to really know one way or the other on lots of things. It's like the Columbus 1492 date - we know for a fact that Europeans were in North America much earlier, but that's still not what they put into young minds.

 

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[mdog]

Aha. When I was a kid in Des Moines, I remember a lady in the State museum near the capital building said they had some Egyptian-looking things in the basement, but never displayed them because they were too different. It seems like there are several examples of this sort of thing, some of the alleged discoveries very outrageous, like Burrows Cave in IL and of course Kinkaid's Grand Canyon cave. Others not so outrageous, like that carved rock egg in CO, or the Lovelock Cave in NV. Some of the true hoaxes are exposed and documented, with confessions from the hoaxers. Other anomalies are just flat denied by the experts. Us - it's impossible for us to really know one way or the other on lots of things. It's like the Columbus 1492 date - we know for a fact that Europeans were in North America much earlier, but that's still not what they put into young minds.

Did the lady describe any of these artifacts? The last time I was at the Putnam Museum they had the Davenport tablets displayed and I wondered why they would put fake artifacts on display.

 

[sdcfia]

Did the lady describe any of these artifacts? The last time I was at the Putnam Museum they had the Davenport tablets displayed and I wondered why they would put fake artifacts on display.

No details that I remember. I just remember the word "Egyptian", but then I've slept a few times since then too. I guess all the arrowheads, etc had my full attention at that age.

 

[mdog]

Here is a link that shows old roads and Coach Houses of the eastern United States in 1847. It's a handy tool.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3700.ct003227/?r=-0.394,0.012,1.82,0.714,0

At this time in our history, stage coaches would have been used to transport bullion and other valuables.

 

[mdog]

This picture shows a map that was drawn on paper by Indians of the Ioway tribe in 1837. The rivers on the map are shown as straight lines and nothing similar to the true path of the rivers. I'm showing this map just in case our Tnet members might find a bunch of straight lines carved on a rock, while wandering through the woods. If you find such a thing, look at a modern map of the area and see how they compare.





https://archaeology.uiowa.edu/1837-ioway-map

 

[Maverick1]

".................might find a bunch of straight lines carved on a rock, while wandering through..................." end quote.

Excellent Mdog, excellent.
You're the first one to acknowledge this on a public forum in an easy to understand format.

 

[sdcfia]

This picture shows a map that was drawn on paper by Indians of the Ioway tribe in 1837. The rivers on the map are shown as straight lines and nothing similar to the true path of the rivers. I'm showing this map just in case our Tnet members might find a bunch of straight lines carved on a rock, while wandering through the woods. If you find such a thing, look at a modern map of the area and see how they compare.

View attachment 1683054

https://archaeology.uiowa.edu/1837-ioway-map

That's not a bad map, dog, considering the Natives had no technology other than the sun and stars and their traveling experiences to create it. Great find. I've learned more Iowa history from your posts than in the 23 years I lived there!

 

[mdog]

That's not a bad map, dog, considering the Natives had no technology other than the sun and stars and their traveling experiences to create it. Great find. I've learned more Iowa history from your posts than in the 23 years I lived there!

It is a remarkable map. Just to the left of where the Rock River flows into the Mississippi, the trail is shown crossing the Cedar River. At that point, there is a rock bottomed ford that crosses the Cedar. On the west side of the ford, there was an Indian village that was abandoned about 1835. Remnants of this village were still standing in 1837 when the original survey was made and the surveyor made note of the location and actually sketched a few teepees.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Mdog, The largest pointer i seen out here is pointing Northeast, i can see it from,about 40 miles away, and i bet it can be seen even more miles away, thats the longest i have been from it. There no mistaking that its a direction pointer. Ill try and get to it and get a heading on it, and post it here. The deg. on it will probably confirm it for you if its a legit pointer. There is also two giant shadow alligator looking creatures looking east,towards the Rio, both with open jaws. I just have a cheap compass, and iam not real good with it, but the heading should be close enough,to see if it fits in with your research.

 

[mdog]

Mdog, The largest pointer i seen out here is pointing Northeast, i can see it from,about 40 miles away, and i bet it can be seen even more miles away, thats the longest i have been from it. There no mistaking that its a direction pointer. Ill try and get to it and get a heading on it, and post it here. The deg. on it will probably confirm it for you if its a legit pointer. There is also two giant shadow alligator looking creatures looking east,towards the Rio, both with open jaws. I just have a cheap compass, and iam not real good with it, but the heading should be close enough,to see if it fits in with your research.

Thanks Dtth. That would be nice but don’t risk your neck. You walk through some rough country.

Several years ago, I exchanged posts with a Tnet member who lived in North Africa. He told me that the ancients over there would use land and water animals to point to land or water trails. For example, a sea turtle, with flippers, would be used to show the direction to a water trail and a land turtle would show the direction to a land route.

 

[mdog]

The Tnet members who follow this forum, have an obvious interest in the signs and monuments that lead to treasure vaults. Three threads illustrate this interest.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-marks-signs/78421-basic-signs-symbols-you-have-found.html

This is Old Dog's thread. He started it in 2008 and it has had more than 625,000 views. Old Dog writes about Spanish sign.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-marks-signs/129235-treasure-signs-symbols-101-a.html

Rangler started this thread in 2009 and it has had over 337,000 views. A lot of information he posts, comes from another Tnet poster called Stilldign. Stilldign believed that the vault sites were set up by a secret society that has existed for centuries, and still exists. He has written that this secret society has created vault sites, all over the world, using identical signs and monuments.

Here is a more recent thread, started in 2016 by Sandy1. So far, Sandy's thread has had over 335,000 views. Sandy gives most of his observations in his first post, which makes it very easy to go back and look for information. He writes about Spanish and Church vault sites.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...5-guide-vault-treasure-hunting-condensed.html

I believe they are all excellent threads and they describe many of the same signs and monuments.

Because there is little or no historic documentation about monuments and symbols that lead to vaults, there has been a lot of debate about the material in these threads, some of it very heated.

I call the sites they describe, owl, heart, triangle sites. These items are common to their trails and vault sites. I've seen all three at the one site I've studied, over the past ten years. These signs and symbols have been pretty much beat to death so I don't plan on spending much time offering new information, because I don't have any. But, if anybody wants to talk about these symbols and monuments, please post your comments and pictures, if you like. These places exist, but instead of trying to explain the signs and symbols, I would like to find out where to look for them. I would also like to find evidence of when they were constructed and who they belonged to. I'll post a lot of random information, in the hopes that somebody will find something that grabs their interest and leads them to further research. I hope that our posters will share their research with the rest of us.

I'm trying to find out who constructed the Heart, Owl, Triangle sites so I thought I would take a look at the Spanish. Many claim that Charles Kenworthy is the modern expert on Spanish symbols and monuments so I thought I would take a look at what he had to say about the owl symbol. Owl monuments and carvings seem to be common at vault sites, as well as the related letters M and B and the number 13. Some searchers say that the owl sign is a certain indication of one or more vaults in the immediate area. I have five books by Kenworthy and I looked through Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs, as well as, Spanish Markers and Trail Signs to Treasure in the United States. Kenworthy claims that the King of Spain required specific symbols and monuments to mark trails going to and from mining/treasure sites. I was surprised to see no mention of the owl or the related letters and number.

So, what does this mean? If the King wanted his mining/treasure sites confirmed, why would he not require the owl monument to confirm such a site as having vaults? Perhaps the sites were constructed by Spaniards, but if they were adding monuments that were not required, did their allegiance belong to the King of Spain or some other group?

After looking through his books, I did notice that some of his monuments had ancient Old World characteristics.


The empty stone chair

Appendix: Sacred Emptiness Mention of sacred thrones must raise the question whether in Phoenician centres deities could be venerated not only in aniconic forms but also in "sacred emptiness". Not only is it common for a deity to be represented seated on a throne, or for a votive object in the form of a throne to support a baetyl or some other cult object, but there are examples of thrones which are empty and so sloped or shaped as to be unable to contain anything.',w An empty throne itself, like a baetyl, could be the object of veneration. Lucian (De Dea Syria, 34) describes such a throne at Hierapolis: "In the body of the temple, as you enter, there stands on the left hand side, a throne for the Sun god; but there is no image upon it, for the effigies of the Sun and Moon are not exhibited ... (not from any prohibition, but because) the Sun and Moon are plain for all to see." Such a practice appears to be another variant of the generally aniconic tendency of Semitic religions, otherwise exemplified by the use of the baetyl. 41

The stone pig

Kenworthy shows several stone pigs in his monuments book. Stone pigs, or verracos, were sculpted by an ancient culture of Iberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verraco

The egg shaped stone on a column, alpha and omega monuments

" Another form of making a boundary was a stone pillar
(at first unhewn), the sacred character of which was marked
by pouring oil upon it, and adoring it. The first attempt
at artistic development was by adding a head, and afterwards
other members of the body, at first with a symbolic meaning.
The phallus formed an essential part of the symbol; probably
because the divinity represented by it was, in th0 earliest
times, the personification of the powers of nature. So the
symbol is described by Herodotus, who ascribes its origin to
the Pelasgi. Pausanias gives a similar account, and adds
that the Arcadians were particularly fond of the four-sided
ornament."

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Mdog, out my way i see all kinds of hearts owls ducks 7 all the Classic supposed Spanish treasure signs, but all the pegan stuff to right there with it. Supposedly the Spanish would destroy that stuff and do the Christian thing. Nope not done out here. The say the 7 represents a camp ground, nope not out here. The say the faces all look south to Mexico city, nope not out here. Its just goes on and on out here with breaking the Spanish rule book stuff . Just telling you what i have seen. I can tell you this also. If your trail is taking you to the place of the Spanish didnt do this work. Your gonna be very unpopular.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Oh a the doorway notches in the mountains they say the Spanish cut. Nope, not out here,there full of pagan stuff, no christian stuff.

 

[mdog]

Mdog, out my way i see all kinds of hearts owls ducks 7 all the Classic supposed Spanish treasure signs, but all the pegan stuff to right there with it. Supposedly the Spanish would destroy that stuff and do the Christian thing. Nope not done out here. The say the 7 represents a camp ground, nope not out here. The say the faces all look south to Mexico city, nope not out here. Its just goes on and on out here with breaking the Spanish rule book stuff . Just telling you what i have seen. I can tell you this also. If your trail is taking you to the place of the Spanish didnt do this work. Your gonna be very unpopular.

I would like to see some surface artifact finds from around some of those places, even arrowheads. The stuff I study here was setup in the late 1800-early 1900. I’m still going to try to find some surface artifacts. I know the Spanish never did mine but there are owls all over the place, everything that is supposed to be Spanish is here. I can prove that a Spanish eye catcher, like what Kenworthy describes, was setup after 1880. You have ancient Phoenician like stuff. Definite Middle East influence.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I’m going to try to keep up on this thread, as long as there aren’t any POP QUIZZES!!!

I can relate my thoughts to most of what I read here, just not everything.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

I have a piece of worked chert, i guess its chert or something. Ill photo it tomorrow and post it here. I found it at a main camp ground in the mountains.

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Here you go Mdog. I thought it was worked, i may be wrong,its easier to see its been flaked off when in your hand. I found it at a camp,where a person had his workshop for making stone heads.

 

[releventchair]

Some curiosity is all Mdog. I've little else to offer this morning.
Some distribution mentioned in this article. Few answers. A question though might be , did the Hopewell culture come up with the figures they did on their own? Or were they influenced by another/other culture.
They seem to have been exposed to others through trade/distribution.
As they would any signs created by others .

I don't buy the shaman use of pipes to create a trance. Though I don't know what shamans did thousands of years ago...
Pipes more recently and by some were sanctified. As ceremonial items should be. Pipe bags were not uncommon. Maybe telling in their decoration of more than being just a pipe bag.

Etiquette (depending on nation/tribe) dictated how a pipe for ceremony (and folks just plain smoked too in less elaborate pipes) was filled . How it was lit. How it was held to pass. Direction it was passed. Where it's ashes went after , ect.. Importance was there. A process far from casual , so it can be expected that a pipes form was as well. Beyond just being neat to look at.

Why an Owl figure for a pipe?
Could it have been to represent a clan? Or simply an Owl? A particular spirit that the maker encountered? Or other inspiration?

Enigmatic 2,000 -Years-Old Carved Stone Owl Pipes ? An Ancient Unsolved Secret Of Illinois | Ancient Pages

 

[mdog]

Thanks for the pictures, Dtth. I always look close at what kind of stone the old artifacts are made from. A lot of the points I’ve found are chipped out of river rock that is found locally. However, I have found points that were made from chert that was brought here from other regions. That gives you some idea of where the trade was coming from.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Some curiosity is all Mdog. I've little else to offer this morning.
Some distribution mentioned in this article. Few answers. A question though might be , did the Hopewell culture come up with the figures they did on their own? Or were they influenced by another/other culture.
They seem to have been exposed to others through trade/distribution.
As they would any signs created by others .

I don't buy the shaman use of pipes to create a trance. Though I don't know what shamans did thousands of years ago...
Pipes more recently and by some were sanctified. As ceremonial items should be. Pipe bags were not uncommon. Maybe telling in their decoration of more than being just a pipe bag.

Etiquette (depending on nation/tribe) dictated how a pipe for ceremony (and folks just plain smoked too in less elaborate pipes) was filled . How it was lit. How it was held to pass. Direction it was passed. Where it's ashes went after , ect.. Importance was there. A process far from casual , so it can be expected that a pipes form was as well. Beyond just being neat to look at.

Why an Owl figure for a pipe?
Could it have been to represent a clan? Or simply an Owl? A particular spirit that the maker encountered? Or other inspiration?

Enigmatic 2,000 -Years-Old Carved Stone Owl Pipes ? An Ancient Unsolved Secret Of Illinois | Ancient Pages

Thanks RC,
I've been thinking about trying my hand at making a replica of the big stone owl that is in my present avatar.
Now i have a function to go with the form.

#/;0{>~