The Tumacacori Treasure Room and Mines

[stilldign]

The Mission of Tumacacori, located south of Tucson, Arizona

 

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[Old Dog]

I am always interested in AZ stuff.
I don't live there any longer but do get out there once in a while.

New interpretations do incite interest and are always welcome..
Thom
OD

 

[djui5]

Why don't you go open it yourself if you've figured it out? Just curious.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

stilldign, why keep asking if anyone wants you to post something and then never post it? This is a treasure site. ANY and ALL leads you might have to a treasure should be posted. Some people won't like what you say, but others will.

 

[gollum]

Please have patience my friends. I have a multitude of other projects that I'm currently working on. I'll get the map posted asap.
As for pursuing this treasure...of course I did. I made a verbal agreement with a person that turned on me after he had purchased the property where this treasure room and mines exist. It was the second time that I got burned due to being in too much of a hurry. I pray that none of you go through such an ordeal.

A multitude of other projects, but you know exactly where a rich treasure room is located, and put that spot on the back burner? PUH-LEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE?!?!

Also, I don't know how to break the news to you, but all that property lies within the boundaries of the Coronado National Forest. I don't think they're selling it to anybody.

Two people who have used probably the same map you have (Molina Map) have had the land under patented claims since the 1980s.

Better luck next time.

Best-Mike

 

[stefen]

I have a map to this treasure site, and if anyone is interested in the interpretation of this complex piece of paper then I'll post it on this site.

I, for one, am interested in seeing the interpretation posted on this site. You have put forth a convincing argument and when everyone has had the chance to analyse its contents, they will become believers in this diatribe.

 

[BigRich]

i wouldn't mind taking a look at that map...........

 

[gollum]

gollum,
Believe what you wish. I am not here to impress people, only to help people understand what they're up against in their search for treasure.
This treasure is located on private property, and if you had any experience at all in deciphering, then you would already know this.
When you lose a site, let alone two, there is only one consolation, and that is being able to move on to the next treasure site.
You gollum, are obviously a little on the ignorant side when it comes to deciphering, and it shows.

You call me ignorant? That is a laugh!

Coming from someone who makes great claims with no sense.

I ask you again.... IF you have a map to a fabulous treasure, and you KNOW that you have deciphered it correctly, why on Earth would you ever say that you have many other things on your plate? To any reasonable person, you sound like one of the many nutjobs who claim to be the keepers of great secrets, yet never act on them. What I like to call "Armchair Treasure Hunters". If you truly believed what you posted, it seems to me (and any other reasonable person) that you would go and recover your fabulous treasure, then , after legally recovering it, you would post the entire story here with pictures. Unless............You are just another fruitcake with grandiose claims, and no substance with which to back them up.

See, all you do by calling me names is raise my ire, which in turn will get you publicly embarrassed, by my stating the facts to you and the rest of TNet which I might otherwise just ignore.

To say that I am ignorant regarding deciphering is ignorance in itself. Considering you know nothing about me, to call me ignorant of anything is ignorance. All I have done is state reasonable facts, and ask reasonable questions, and your only reparte is to call me a name? Who looks ignorant now? Why don't you show me as wrong by giving proof? Could it be because what proof you have is as flawed as your reasoning in calling me ignorant?

So, since you are "still diggin" instead of "still findin", I can only assume that you are just another kook not worthy of the time it takes me to type this reply.

What I will say is......Best of luck in your endeavor.

Mike

 

[gollum]

gollum,
Believe what you wish. I am not here to impress people, only to help people understand what they're up against in their search for treasure.
This treasure is located on private property, and if you had any experience at all in deciphering, then you would already know this.
When you lose a site, let alone two, there is only one consolation, and that is being able to move on to the next treasure site.
You gollum, are obviously a little on the ignorant side when it comes to deciphering, and it shows.

You call me ignorant? That is a laugh!

Coming from someone who makes great claims with no sense.

I ask you again.... IF you have a map to a fabulous treasure, and you KNOW that you have deciphered it correctly, why on Earth would you ever say that you have many other things on your plate? To any reasonable person, you sound like one of the many nutjobs who claim to be the keepers of great secrets, yet never act on them. What I like to call "Armchair Treasure Hunters". If you truly believed what you posted, it seems to me (and any other reasonable person) that you would go and recover your fabulous treasure, then , after legally recovering it, you would post the entire story here with pictures. Unless............You are just another fruitcake with grandiose claims, and no substance with which to back them up.

See, all you do by calling me names is raise my ire, which in turn will get you publicly embarrassed, by my stating the facts to you and the rest of TNet which I might otherwise just ignore.

To say that I am ignorant regarding deciphering is ignorance in itself. Considering you know nothing about me, to call me ignorant of anything is ignorance. All I have done is state reasonable facts, and ask reasonable questions, and your only reparte is to call me a name? Who looks ignorant now? Why don't you show me as wrong by giving proof? Could it be because what proof you have is as flawed as your reasoning in calling me ignorant?

So, since you are "still diggin" instead of "still findin", I can only assume that you are just another kook not worthy of the time it takes me to type this reply.

What I will say is......Best of luck in your endeavor.

Mike

Check the bottom of your shoes...maybe you stepped into something.

Stefen,

So, are you saying that someone who claims to have uncovered the exact location of a great treasure beyond any doubt, but still has other more important things to do, makes sense to you? Come on now! Previous to this you seemed more of a reasonable person to me. Maybe I was mistaken.

See, I am a person who actually climbs mountains and hikes deserts looking for forgotten historical artifacts (both historically and monetarily valuable). I just look at things from a simple point of view. Forget all the rigamarole and frufra extraneous crap. I try to cut things down to their bare essentials, and decide whether or not they make sense. My time is too valuable to spend chasing red herrings. If you wish to spend what time you have left on Earth listening to wishful thinking, then please, knock yourself out.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that stildign is shoveling crap, and I just stepped in it, then maybe we have some room for agreement.

I know many of the old time treasure hunters. We mostly tend to think alike, and judge peoples' stories based on our internal bullsh*t meters. I have found mine over the years to be pretty darn accurate.

Best-Mike

 

[BigRich]

gollum you're being ridiculous. He said you're a little ignorant about deciphering. Not that you're an ignorant person. So, if you're educated about deciphering, then he was wrong, and that's all you had to say. If you don't know much or anything about deciphering, then he was correct in what he said.

definition of ignorant:

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant

so again, he said you're 'lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact'. in this case, deciphering. which is absolutely no reason to go jumping down his throat.

and if he knows where a great treasure is.. what's it to you anyways? he was simply offering to show us a map and what he believes is the correct interpretation of it. Fine, no big deal. We'll wait for the map and his interpretation and then come to our own conclusions.. if his interpretation is not what people to believe to be correct, maybe it'll spark an idea in someone that may be correct and lead to finding the treasure. who knows, but it's responses like yours that would make somebody not want to share what they've researched because they just get jumped on.

As for calling him an 'armchair treasure hunter'. How do you know this? Like you said he doesn't know you, and you don't know him. What if he doesn't go out? what if it's health issues? what if the only way he can enjoy and do his hobby is with books and research? now who looks like a jackass? YOU gollum. Or maybe he does go out and stomp those hills, so good for him. You're just trying to insult him, which is childish.

and there can be plenty of reasons to not go out and recover a treasure yourself if you know where it is.. so i won't even get into that.

yeah, i'm defending stilldign. on another forum where i go by another name, a long time ago, he showed me that he could decipher maps. and that's all i'm gonna say about that right there.. i've had no contact with him since.. which is why when i saw this thread i got real interested in what he had to say.

The fact that you have almost 2500 posts on TNet, a charter member and a hero member, doesn't give you the right to be an asshole to someone. we all share the same passion for this hobby and we should be trying to help eachother up and not trying to tear eachother down.

 

[BigRich]

stilldign isn't my pal i've only had a couple conversations with him before. no i don't know gollum and i'm pretty sure he's not unable and goes out into the field.. seeing as he said so himself. i don't know stilldign any better than i know you or gollum. i'd just rather give people the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what they have to say or show. i'm not doubting gollums ability to be able to understand things out in the field... i too have done it. it's not that hard if you know what to look for. anyways this is gonna be a pointless roundabout argument so i'm done with it i've said what i wanted to say.

as War said... "why can't we be friends"

 

[stefen]

Gollum,

Yeah, I concur with you, somebody has stepped in it.

 

[Old Dog]

I would still like to see that map.

 

[gollum]

First off, let me say that if I came off a little hard on stildign, I apologize. I do have very good reasoning for it though. I have seen numerous people who post that they alone have unlocked the secrets to fabulous treasures, but their day jobs don't give them the time to go to the one spot they absolutely know is where the fabulous treasure is. A reasonable person would immediately think this to a another BS story. If I knew the exact location of a fabulous treasure beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would immediately call in sick, and head for the desert.

When it comes to Tumacacori (pronounced too-ma-KA'-koree), there is not much I don't know about the mines, the mission, the legends, and the truths. I know an old time treasure hunter who has lived in the town of Tumacacori for many years.

I know another man who has had the claim on the area in Javelin Canyon where there is a 150,000 cubic foot mine tailings pile with no mine to go with it (it is so big, it is visible in satellite pics). His name is Gary Oliver, and he has had the claim there since about 1986. He lives in Oregon and has written a book called "Enigma at Tumacacori". For anyone wishing to learn more about the REAL Tumacacori Story, I strongly recommend reading it. Here is a sat pic of the tailings pile:

I have heard numerous people (you know who you are) before stildign claim to know for certain that the lost Tumacacori Mine (there are two as yet still unfound: The Pure Concepcion and The Virgen de Guadalupe) was in one place or another. The Virgen de Guadalupe is the mine that supposedly houses the great store of silver and gold ingots, and in an adjacent hidden room, there is supposedly a copper chest containing maps to all the Tumacacori Mission Mines). I have seen insane rantings that the V de G Mine is in the Superstition Mountains, and other whacky theories. I just get sick of people posting crap without doing any REAL research into the area, or talking to any of the REALLY knowledgeable people.

I am more than happy to share any of the knowledge I have gotten regarding anything I am not bound by promises not to talk about, as anybody who I have dealt with knows. I also have very little patience for whackadoos, and their nutty theories. All it takes is a little research into the subject to know that ANYONE who claims to have simply deciphered the Molina Map ( and attached document), without having been to the area, stood in the ruins at Camp Loco, and seen the "Face of Christ" or the "Cross on the Cliff," has no clue what they are talking about!

So....forgive me if I am brusque with people who I know for certain don't have a clue regarding what is actually there. Before anybody can even think about solving the Molina Map:

one has to be familiar with all the nuances of Castillian Spanish word coding (as in writing incode). One has to understand how if the crossbar on a letter "T" is tilted to one side, it can be pointing at another letter or symbol that changes the entire meaning of the code. One has to carefully look at all the capitol letters, because they have their own coded meanings. There is a LOT more to Spanish and Jesuit Cryptography than looking at a map, and thinking you can work it out. It's just not that easy. Lots of people SAY they can do it, but in all the years I have been doing this, I have met precious few who actually can. Most of them are charging $2500 per week (or more) as archive researchers in Seville, Rome, or Madrid for shipwreck salvage people and companies.

Oh, and Rich; I know what ignorant means, and it is not often used in a non-sarcastic way. You see, there are many ways to say that someone may not be educated enough about a particular subject without using the word ignorant. That word is typically used as an insult, and if anyone ever uses it towards me, I ALWAYS consider it an insult. I have a very good command of the English Language in general, Vocabulary, and Grammar in particular.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

so again, he said you're 'lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact'. in this case, deciphering. which is absolutely no reason to go jumping down his throat.

and if he knows where a great treasure is.. what's it to you anyways? he was simply offering to show us a map and what he believes is the correct interpretation of it. Fine, no big deal. We'll wait for the map and his interpretation and then come to our own conclusions.. if his interpretation is not what people to believe to be correct, maybe it'll spark an idea in someone that may be correct and lead to finding the treasure. who knows, but it's responses like yours that would make somebody not want to share what they've researched because they just get jumped on.

As for calling him an 'armchair treasure hunter'. How do you know this? Like you said he doesn't know you, and you don't know him. What if he doesn't go out? what if it's health issues? what if the only way he can enjoy and do his hobby is with books and research? now who looks like a jackass? YOU gollum. Or maybe he does go out and stomp those hills, so good for him. You're just trying to insult him, which is childish.

and there can be plenty of reasons to not go out and recover a treasure yourself if you know where it is.. so i won't even get into that.

yeah, i'm defending stilldign. on another forum where i go by another name, a long time ago, he showed me that he could decipher maps. and that's all i'm gonna say about that right there.. i've had no contact with him since.. which is why when i saw this thread i got real interested in what he had to say.

The fact that you have almost 2500 posts on TNet, a charter member and a hero member, doesn't give you the right to be an #@!$%#@! to someone. we all share the same passion for this hobby and we should be trying to help eachother up and not trying to tear eachother down.

So Big Rich,

You seem to not completely read stilldign's post (at least you left part of it out), and didn't read mine all the way through either. Here is dign's full quote:

are obviously a little on the ignorant side when it comes to deciphering, and it shows.

If I were to say that to anybody, it would be meant as an insult. That is how I take it. Nothing to make me think different. I didn't start the name calling, dign did. I may have been a little brusque with him, but I called him no names. I jumped down his throat only after he resorted to name calling, and your jumping in on his side only makes YOU look like a horse's ass. Not me.

As for calling him an 'armchair treasure hunter'. How do you know this?

Once again, you're not reading my entire post! TSK TSK TSK! Looks like you missed a couple of words before that. See, in English, when we start of a sentence with the words "Seems like," it means that "I may not know absolutely, but from what I see, this is the way something appears." Once again, quoting me, either without reading my entire post, or just quoting whichever part makes your point does not make you "Seem like" you're doing such a good job.

As for him possibly not being physically able to get out and climb mountains, that has nothing at all to do with my argument that there is a LOT more to the Molina Map than just trying to decipher it. It has to be taken into context with both the Molina Document and the actual site itself. There are little things there, that guide you with the map and document, like :

If you haven't been to the site, you would not know that the "Ojos de San Ramon" (eyes of San Ramon) mean what is in the above picture. You might notice that "San Ramon" is also mentioned on the map. Hmmmmmmm. Just what does that owl "Seem like" he's looking at?

Mike

 

[BigRich]

yea i was outta line.. just was in a weird mood, i normally don't get involved. lets all sit around the campfire and have a few beers, lord knows i need one (a beer that is).

cool pic by the way. i don't know much about this story or mine.. but i 'think' i remember hearing that where the mission is believed to be isn't where the original mission was that is described or something and that it was rebuilt at a different location? i'm not sure, those aren't my neck of the woods down there... normally, anyways...

 

[El_Capitan]

Hey gang, not to intrude on the bashing going on (j/k), but how does a person get a hold of this map? I'd LOVE to start a little research and really divulge some time into this. Although I'm in MN right now, this is intriguing, and I'd like to help be a part of this if we can do so. Let me know, Thanks,

BTW, gollum, I'm not sure what you have circled on the pictures, I see some variances in terrain, and withthe red circle can see a vague line coming across, but what is that? I'm not sure what tailings are. Sorry as I am truly NAIVE and new to TH'ing.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Just what does that owl "Seem like" he's looking at?

Mike

Looks like he's looking at the smaller boulder in front of him.

 

[VICTORIO]

" you will find that these mines all exist within one huge tunnel system, and that the treasure room is to the very northern end of this tunnel system. Within this tunnel system are found many rooms, with one room containing a library, and the artifacts contained within this room alone could be worth millions. "

Stilldign, was this a common pratice for them to use the actual mine/Tunnel as an accumulation room.

 

[cptbil]

Victorio:
It SURE WAS in this area!
Just take a look at "The Pure Conception Mine"
Is is filled with silver bars!
All some 400 varas long ..... (Tunnel)
That's a lot of Silver bars! *
Plus!
25 varas, in, on the left handside, you'll find, is a small room that has Church Artifacts in it!
Man!
I love to find those!
OOPS!
DARN!
I HAVE! already found the mine's location!


* In case you'll don't know the size of a Spanish Mine..
Forget what you know
The Mines in this area are about 48" wide and about that high!
How do I know?
I have been into "Five" of them in this area/mnts!
I may have some photos around that I'll scan for you'se !




"BMB"