The Treasure of El Pensamiento (including Ruminahuis stash)

[Corporate Investigations]

Hi CI

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Had a feeling as much. Sanders' attempt to make it seem as he was on the cusp of discovery, has given much ammunition to distractors and it might even be possible that the silver cross he uncovered was planted. He also played a foolish game with the Bolivian authorities when he discovered they were opening his mail, and his stunt backfired spectacularly.

I recall the article you mentioned which really tore shreds from Sanders' account, and all in all, it was a spectacular failure from him and considerable funds wasted.

I am waiting on the book from the chaps who went to Sacambaya in the 1960s, if possible, I will attempt to make contact with them to see the comment one of them made about "it (the treasure) being in one of possible 30 sites". Was this because they came across further information afterwards or even that they should have searched elsewhere at the location?

In your opinion, was the site a church, convent, monastery, fort, administration centre or even a combination of these?
It would seem that the site acted as a local headquarters of sort and if gold was accumulated, then perhaps there is possibly a cache or two.

IPUK

Hello I have not visited the site. So I cannot give an accurate determination of the site. Nor has Crow as a matter of fact. Kanacki came to conclusion that site was built or earlier Inca site crudely smelting bronze. And colonial metal smelting site that was mistakenly believed to be a ruins chapel was in fact a crude reverberatory furnace. probably used for smelting copper gold and silver from various mines around the areas. He noted one side of the mountain was denuded of trees which could of been used in smelting process.The mining camp had a chapel of course by by no means a full size monastery. The old walls of a fort nearby was of original Inca construct but seems to have later Spanish modification of the upper walls to a fort of 18th century European influence.

Amy

 

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[Interested Party in UK]

Thanks CI, interesting food for thought.

So it was used for smelting purposes and was used by the Incas and later the Spanish.

The mining camp could have been an interesting indicator to whether it was Jesuit, native or European. The modifications from the 18th century to the fort/wall fit-in with the timeframe of before and during the expulsion order. If it was abandoned shortly thereafter, maybe it wasn't a Spanish Crown site and more to do with the Jesuits?

The absence of trees is as interesting one. Were they used in the smelting process, chopped down during the Sanders' expeditions or some other unknown reason?

If there was a chapel made of stone, it indicates some sort of permanence and all-year round activity....

This one is really getting me hooked!


IPUK

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Next IUP, you'll start to get itchy feet - yer hooked as a treasure hunter

 

[Interested Party in UK]

My esteemed Don

I had been ignoring the symptoms...Even when others clearly saw the signs...I would hide my addiction...I have now finally acknowledged my 'condition' and will now attempt to address it!

IUK

 

[Corporate Investigations]

IPUK

Kanacki suspected that plazula monastery was not a monastery, just a mistaken for one. but a very basic mining outstation settlement with small processing plant, built on top of an old Inca mining site. Similar to the one in the illustration. with a small crude chapel.



A collection point for various mines in the surrounding hills. Much illegal mining was going on under the noses of the vice royalty. Some no doubt was connected to Jesuit activity providing labor hire and mineral processing expertise. Most likely a similar set up like Tayopa and area being unofficially mined by Spanish with the Jesuits providing secondary services as smelting of the ore and labor hiring of natives.

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

IPUK

Stratford Jolly made of map of the key sites at Sacambaya.



Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Not too far away there is a cave that is a mass grave.




Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Kanacki believed that idea of the monastery is based on peoples interpretation of the ruins of the old furnaces to process ore. You can see in the following illustration of old furnaces could be in ruined state believed to be Latin American styled church building.



As you can be see below in the picture. Flat ground was at a premium and area of operation was rather scattered.



Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Here is a 1912 newspaper story



It mentions a discovery of treasure years before?

Was that the president of Bolivia who later fled to Lima Peru where he was assassinated in exile by a Sanchez



Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

IPUK

Another question we should ask ourselves the Sanders expedition was a huge expedition of many men. 45 tons of equipment and worked the site for 4 months to no avail. What make anyone else think they could do any better with much less resources?

There are too many unanswered questions to really come to definite conclusion.

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello CI

We are getting in deeper and deeper into this intriguing mystery....

So the big fella Kanacka confirmed that in his view it was almost certainly used, the site that is, by Incas, Spanish and the Jesuits. It would have been an important location then that served some strategic importance. The fact of the matter is that even though some had variously labelled it a "monastery","chapel" etc., is not a priority as we can safely assume that the location was relevant. The good fathers kindly used their powers of persuasion to hire out native labour and their specialist mining and refining technical skills. If the treasure was stored by them prior to expulsion, it would confirm in some way that the mining of the gold was only possible with them being there and all large scaly operations ceased with their removal. The Spanish civilians and natives pretty much stopped after the Jesuits left. It would also explain, why, if any, treasure was buried so deeply and securely, as the area and site would have been known to many and it would only have been achievable by a large workforce working over an extended period. Interesting.

That illustration from Jollie's book is very alluring. I have not read his book - only extracts - and have today received my copy of Howell's and Morrison's book. Will let you know how that goes.

The picture of the bones shows another aspect of the story to be true: the large number of bodies at the site of "Black Dead/Negro Muerte". But it is debatable if they belong to the natives who helped bury the treasure.

I completely agree with you about how the ruins could be described by some mistakenly as a church or other religious building. Add in the factor of weeds and the plant life around those parts, and it is an easy and simple misrepresentation to make.

The Fawcett article is another fascinating one. He claimed that the treasure was recovered by a Bolivian in about 1870 - 1880. Would that tie-in with that ex-president that allegedly found it? But would not Prodgers have known about this or even Sanders? Is there conclusive proof of this? If so, then the search is simply over.

You make a valid point about Sanders and his well-funded and equipped expedition. But if he simply followed and enlarged Prodgers' chosen site, what if they were both looking in the wrong place. Prodgers based his search on the stone egg location and where the native told him he believed it to be.

What still puzzles me is this: was there more than a single site?
Prodgers claimed that a native, whose wife actually visited Prodgers camp, had found a then valued £20,000 worth of gold and during his own search, to herders had uncovered a then valued £1,500 worth of silver plate and even the native caretaker had uncovered a 40lb golden bell.

More questions than answers, but this is good as it shows that in searching for the truth, no stone is being left uncovered (excusing the pun please).


IUK

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello IPUK

The trouble we have is we are making too many assumptions without seeing the original documents. At present the story no doubt has added extras that we take for granted they are facts.

Best course of action it seems would to hunt down descendants of Corina San Roman Caballo pictured below. Of course a discreet inquiry are in need with the subject of Sacambaya treasure topic.



Ideal ice breaker would be researching the family connection to Miguel de San Roman Reza. Then slowly lead in with a blurb wanting to produce a book researching the truth behind such legends connected with the family.Since the fellow already has an interest in his family history, you with have a connection then let him slowly lead you to what you want to know. (I learn't that off hard luck!) absolute master. Reminds me a story Kanacki told me.

The trio once had a bet who could get the most information from the next total stranger they saw. And yes you guess hardluck in 10-15 minutes had the quarry spilling all personal family details willingly without realizing it. He uses cold reading and observation of the person breaks the ice then gains affinity with them.

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Again

Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia (13 April 1820 – 23 November 1871) was the 18th President of Bolivia, from December 28, 1864, to January 15, 1871. It interesting to note that he was family lived in Cochabamba Bolivia not very far from Sacamabaya. 900 thousand pounds in value suggested was allegedly recovered in 1870. Calculating 1870 current values English pounds to US dollars 3- 1 ratio 2700,000 dollars divided by 1870 gold values we could roughly estimate the size of gold recovered. 1870 was $18.70 per ounce. 2700000 divided by say rounded off at 19 and ounce 142105 ounces. Equated roughly to around 6 tons of gold. Roughly 180 million give or take in today's value. Of course that is a very basic premise because maybe two thirds was silver then in case there may be many tons of silver in equivalent value?

Quite a substantial amount on anybody's terms.

Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

IPIU

If that premise is proved to be correct perhaps the treasure is no longer in Sacambaya? But in hidden on the property in the ex Presidents home.

see you tube clip of his home in Cochabamba Bolivia. casa el presidente Mariano Melgarejo.




Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia died in Lima in exile in 1871. Perhaps he was never able to take with him the treasure he allegedly recovered from Sacambaya in 1870



Corina San Roman Caballo and her family a distant relation to Migeal de San Roman Meza. The information was sourced via Migeal de San Roman Meza's grandmother's brother. However Migeal de San Roman Meza had no way of searching for treasure. Because there was no way Bolivians was ever going to let a Peruvian president look for treasure on their territory. Migeal de San Roman Meza was long dead in 1863 before Bolivian president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia searched for treasure at Sacambaya in 1870 just be he was over thrown, and exhiled to Peru.



So perhaps what ever was allegedly discovered might not now be at Sacambaya but in main city nearby of Cochabamba buried on the property of the late overthrown president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia, who died in exile in 1871?



Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello IPUK

One undeniable fact that all the land at Sacambaya was owned by the "Company" Jesuits right up to the expulsion.



Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello CI

This gets better and better...!

I am just on the way out and will reply to your super posts just as soon as I return.

Many thanks to you again for the brilliant and exquisite research.

Regards

IUP

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello IPIK

Going back a little on cave Hardluck and kanacki rediscovered.



There was a newspaper article that gives a figure of 280 skeletons in the cave Sanders found in 1928. Its tallies up the cave that Kanacki and hardluck found saying there was about 300. Was if the same cave or even related to the alleged events at Sacambaya?

That is of course open for conjecture.



Amy

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello again another factor to take in consideration.

When the "Companies" Jesuits assets was sized by the Crown their total Peru, and upper Peru (Bolivia ) assets in 1767 was valued at 1.6 billion in today's value. Liquid assets was a mere 38 million the rest was in real estate, sugar refines sugar plantations, mission churches schools, colleges and various properties, cattle, wineries.

Back in 1767 it was roughly 96000 pesos ( pillar silver dollars ), Today's value depending on quality and grade taking a rough average would be about 38 million.

I imagine this story has strong similarities with Don Jose research on Tayopa. However each region to a certain degree had various autonomy with Jesuit hierarchy in Europe. Their agendas varied from those of South America to the Mexico. However other through their collages at least was fostering dangerous ideals among an emerging class of people with very little ties to the Spanish throne.

Amy

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hi CI

Have made a quicker return than anticipated. The weather (do we Brits ever talk about anything else?) is awful here at the moment. Which reminds me that if I do visit Sacambaya towards the end of this year, I shall have not been more fortunate in picking a more improper time...

Going back to your detailed posts, number 112, details Corina San Roman with the added name of "Caballo". Is this how the supposed hill with the egg-shaped stone was called the "Caballo Cunco"?

Post 112 also details Hard Luck's powers of persuasion, I am starting to believe he must be a Welsh version of Superman.

If we focus on if the story is real, then it is imperative, as you quite rightly state, to track down Corina's descendents and dig a little deeper there. But if we take it that Megarejo did actually uncover the treasure in 1870 just prior to being disposed, then would it still be the priority? It could very well be that Fawcett was alluding to this ex-president when he claimed that the treasure had already been discovered. Can we assume that Prodgers, Sanders and even the native caretaker that was paid by the San Romans to supervise the site was off-mark as well?

What is more and more likely is that, there must have been something there in the first place....

Too many factors that cannot be dismissed easily.

Also, you have confirmed that the Jesuits did own the land around Sacambaya!!
These chaps were bright and practical. There would have been many reasons for them to purchase the area around and including the site. As most history books suggest, where there was decent mining going on, you could usually find the holy fathers in the vicinity...

The cave is an intriguing one. I place little stock in Sanders' theory about the number of individuals interred there and why. If the Kanacka and Hard Luck believed about 300 bodies or so, I am more inclined to accept these figures. Of course the next question is, why so many in such a confined space, and I presume this, over a relatively short period as they bones' positioning would seem to indicate that the bodies were stored relatively quickly and then sealed. On all the literature and documents I have come across pertaining to Central and South America, not to mention many other cultures and religions, the dead are treated reverentially and their burial is normally carefully taken care of as the living are deeply connected to the departed spirits of their kin and ancestors. Seems like those bodies were placed there in a rush and under stressful circumstances.

If Melgarejo did really discover the treasure, then the site of Sacambaya/Plazuela itself is perhaps not that practical to search..., but do you reckon there was more than a single treasure buried there?

IUP

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello IPUK

If we look deeper into the history of Bolivian president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia.

(Cochabamba, 1818 - Lima, 1871) Military and political Bolivian president between 1864 and 1871. emblematic leader of the "barbaric caudillo" has been considered by some historians as the most disastrous president in the history of Bolivia.

It probably abandoned by his parents, he entered at an early age in the army, only training institution attended. He fought in the wars of the Confederation and in the battle of Ingavi, and participated in numerous rebellions. Being second sergeant Oruro rebelled against the government of Velasco, a fact that earned him down and banishment to the regions of Huanay. In 1853 she revolted again in Santa Cruz; He was arrested and sentenced to death, and Belzú spared his life at the behest of Cochabamba ladies, but not before warning that someday would repent of it; the warning proved prescient, as the Belzú own die at the hands of Melgarejo.

In 1858 he rebelled against Linares, who, instead of running, confined him to San Matias, on the border with Brazil. During the government of Acha, Melgarejo, with the courage that gave her almost constant state of intoxication, he began the attack against the armies of Gregorio Perez (who wanted to overthrow President Acha), and won a victory that allowed Achá continue in the power.

In return, despite his reprehensible past, Melgarejo was elevated to the rank of general. With the support of the oligarchy Mariano Melgarejo overthrew President Acha and took office on December 28, 1864, when it began an administration of dictatorial regime that was one of the most ominous that has Bolivia in its history . Shortly thereafter, General Melgarejo toured the interior of the country, which was used by Manuel Isidoro Belzú to take the city of La Paz and hold office. Melgarejo returned to the city and, accompanied by a small escort, entered the Government Palace, where Belzú performed a party to celebrate his triumph. Wordlessly, as some witnesses reported, he fired a pistol shot that ended his life.

During his rule the use of the postmark and the metric system was decreed (although this would not apply until fifty years later). He established steam for minting in Potosi and irresponsibly increased circulation feble. During this period simultaneously they increased international prices of guano and saltpeter, which meant a true economic revolution for the country, revolution a system of order and honest could have leverage with magnificent results. But it was as bad management of those interests that concessions were made to foreign companies, with catastrophic consequences for Bolivia.

The government of Melgarejo was devastating for Bolivia. He plundered the public treasury, centralizing public funds in a single box that drove him to his discretion; He suppressed municipalities and decreed forced loans that were made effective with death threats. Soon he realized the country that a drunken whimsical controlled everything "with the constitution in his pocket," as he used to say. Protests erupted everywhere, but they were crushed one to one by the force of an army that all excesses were permitted. The Melgarejo himself executed in the battle of Cantería, the poet Nestor Galindo and other prominent intellectuals. Human life does not deserve any respect for him.

Melgarejo lived and drunk orgy orgy with his closest collaborators and his favorite concubine, Juana Sanchez, whose family took advantage of the funds in the country. He stripped the indigenous communities of their land for their own benefit and their friends by denigrating wiles. On May 20, 1866 issued a decree in which owners of their land declaring the Indians, provided they follow a legal process and pay twenty pesos. Since the Indians were not aware of the decree, and, if you came to learn, could not meet the conditions imposed, their properties were awarded by auction, which could obtain in exchange for paltry sums favorites tyrant. During the robbery, which took effect the national army, true Indian massacres occurred.

There is the possibility the story of murdered peons in the cave was not from the Jesuits but from the atrocities of president Manuel Mariano Melgarejo Valencia in his war to suppress the natives. Thus over time that story became connected with the Jesuits?

Amy