The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Bocaj]

To me the measurements look like are written on the island. Also the measurement on feet doesn't prompt to a measurement on the water. But everybody are free to believe in their theory, if there exists one.

Sure the feet measurements are almost certainly on land giving the dimension of the dugout roughly 1sqm and 1m depth which could contain three chests filled with all the content the 'Avery' letters mention.

In any case the lines containing the directions are most certainly not in feet. They are written like typical dead reckoning routes. Keep in mind that Dead Reckoning was the most used form of navigation before the GPS time. Coordinates were usual given by compass points and length to travel along those lines Distances are taken by measuring time multiplied by the boats speed. That's the only way to be that accurate like 515 SE. Also the first number is so much greater than the rest it is most certainly describing to location of the island from a known point (mainland or another island) while the rest is directing the boat on the south shore towards the treasure.

People wasted lives and fortunes on the search not understanding the nautical terms on this nautical map!

My opinion is Kidd never was in the China Sea.

I think we are all here in agreement on this one!

Good luck in roaming the oceans for the ghost island. More quickly someone will find Atlantis.

It would not be the first time one looks for one thing but finds another . Not totally out of question neither as both are of volcanic and as I mentioned earlier the island seem to be made of a greater volcanic cone that is mostly sunken back into the oceans. I assumed it to be a process that affects most volcanic islands that they sink back into the sea over millions of years and leave if at all coral atolls. It is also a possibility that the original islands volcano exploded much in the way Krakatoa did.

 

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[markmar]

Sure the feet measurements are almost certainly on land giving the dimension of the dugout roughly 1sqm and 1m depth which could contain three chests filled with all the content the 'Avery' letters mention.

In any case the lines containing the directions are most certainly not in feet. They are written like typical dead reckoning routes. Keep in mind that Dead Reckoning was the most used form of navigation before the GPS time. Coordinates were usual given by compass points and length to travel along those lines Distances are taken by measuring time multiplied by the boats speed. That's the only way to be that accurate like 515 SE. Also the first number is so much greater than the rest it is most certainly describing to location of the island from a known point (mainland or another island) while the rest is directing the boat on the south shore towards the treasure.

People wasted lives and fortunes on the search not understanding the nautical terms on this nautical map!


I think we are all here in agreement on this one!

It would not be the first time one looks for one thing but finds another . Not totally out of question neither as both are of volcanic and as I mentioned earlier the island seem to be made of a greater volcanic cone that is mostly sunken back into the oceans. I assumed it to be a process that affects most volcanic islands that they sink back into the sea over millions of years and leave if at all coral atolls. It is also a possibility that the original islands volcano exploded much in the way Krakatoa did.

I believe we have not the Kidd's boat speed for that region and the time he did that route in regards to find out the proper distance. Boats speed varied between different type of boats, not to say about winds which helped a lot. So IMHO, those measurements are for land. More stable and easiest to measure.

 

[Randawg72]

To repeat myself: Greenwich wasn't used as meridian before 1721,

I'm sorry Bocaj, but you are wrong.
The Royal Observatory was founded for the sole purpose of calculating accurate longitude at sea. And it was in use 46 years before being designated the UK's "Prime Meridian" in 1721.
I don't particularly care whether you believe that 'unpleasant fact' or not, but please don't confuse historical facts with my personal opinions.

Ref. The Observatory, Vol. 50, p. 272 (1927), by W.G. Perrin

 

[Bocaj]

I'm sorry Bocaj, but you are wrong.
The Royal Observatory was founded for the sole purpose of calculating accurate longitude at sea. And it was in use 46 years before being designated the UK's "Prime Meridian" in 1721.
I don't particularly care whether you believe that 'unpleasant fact' or not, but please don't confuse historical facts with my personal opinions.

View attachment 2195853
Ref. The Observatory, Vol. 50, p. 272 (1927), by W.G. Perrin

Maybe you should start reading your own text before posting them:

"but it was long before even the British took the meridian of Greenwich for their prime meridian."

seriously!

Maybe you have a issue understanding the terminology?
every dam place (apart from the poles) on earth have a meridian (the line running through the place and both poles. Even the toilet in your house has one! Doesn't mean anyone uses it. The Royal Observatory was used to calculate longitude and sure they had to use the meridian of the observatory to calculate positions but they would then transform those positions via simple addition/subtraction to whatever prime meridian was in use. Until they changed it to Greenwich in 1721!

 

[Bocaj]

I believe we have not the Kidd's boat speed for that region and the time he did that route in regards to find out the proper distance. Boats speed varied between different type of boats, not to say about winds which helped a lot. So IMHO, those measurements are for land. More stable and easiest to measure.

I simply tried (and apparently failed) to show how those numbers were calculated in the first place. Kidd did of course know the speed of his own boat.

How do you think People before google maps did calculate distances? Distance is mostly not measured by a ruler or tape but by either trigonometry or a clock (time x speed)!

515 yards are much easier to calculate on a boat with a more or less constant speed while sailing or rowing then to measure on land! speed on land is not more 'stable' and compass directions (obstacles, etc) less easy to take.

 

[Randawg72]

IMO, if the numbers 44106818 would be for degrees of latitude and longitude, then the only island which match 44*10' lat and 68*18' long is the Great Duck Island of Mein. It has a lagoon on the west side.
What is your opinion?

Hi Markmar,
William and Ellen Bigenho purchased most of Great Duck Island in 1949. The Bigenho's thought the island resembled Kidd's Island on the charts and spent many years searching for his treasure there.

 

[markmar]

I simply tried (and apparently failed) to show how those numbers were calculated in the first place. Kidd did of course know the speed of his own boat.

How do you think People before google maps did calculate distances? Distance is mostly not measured by a ruler or tape but by either trigonometry or a clock (time x speed)!

515 yards are much easier to calculate on a boat with a more or less constant speed while sailing or rowing then to measure on land! speed on land is not more 'stable' and compass directions (obstacles, etc) less easy to take.

I believe in the mid of 17th century, distances on boats were measured with days, weeks or moons, and all were with approximaty. They said: " Go west about two weeks until you will see that landmark and from there go NE about three days until you see the next landmark, catch that current which will leads you to the next landmark, etc., and always in comparison with the known stars, for this the trigonometry.

They had the landmarks on their maps bigger than the islands. Captains have to be familiar with a specific region in regards to avoid unpleasant circumstances, unless the captains would hire someone who knew the new route. Maritime leagues and miles came more later.

For land they had yards, feet and leagues for longer distances, with a league to be estimated to an hour of walking. The league later was used in treasure maps (usually by Spanish and their Latin brothers) as a 2,7 miles distance.

 

[markmar]

Hi Markmar,
William and Ellen Bigenho purchased most of Great Duck Island in 1949. The Bigenho's thought the island resembled Kidd's Island on the charts and spent many years searching for his treasure there.

Maybe they left out of their property the spot of Kidd's treasure. I did't know about Bigenho before post my opinion about the Great Duck to be a candidate for W. Kidd's treasure. Seems coincidences lead to a common thought.
IMHO, what I post in regards to the spot of the treasure on Great Duck, is, according to my experience in treasure hunting, very accurate. Maybe someone on the island should give a look to that spot. Just sayin..

 

[Bocaj]

I believe in the mid of 17th century, distances on boats were measured with days, weeks or moons, and all were with approximaty. They said: " Go west about two weeks until you will see that landmark and from there go NE about three days until you see the next landmark, catch that current which will leads you to the next landmark, etc.,

Under certain circumstances yes but in general they would use sea miles (which depended on the knot in the log they used), miles, leagues etc with each of them having quite a difference from country to country. nautical miles were defined 1/60th of a degree (one minute) of latitude but the circumference of earth was not known exactly neither.

Days or weeks would not be used in rutters and only given for a certain voyage on a fixed date where currents and winds were known or constant.

Landmarks and coastline were very important, also very high mountains,that's why the Teide in Tenerife was used as prime meridian.

and always in comparison with the known stars, for this the trigonometry.

Trigonometry was mostly used with landmarks and coastlines, the star only for oceanic navigation or on land.

The GPS unfortunately lets everyone forget about all the above. Anyway the instructions on the skeleton chart are typical for nautical dead reckoning (especially the 'and by') there should be no doubt about this if you are used to traditional sailing.

 

[BennyV]

I fished with guys in the early 1990s that used dead reckoning based off landmarks. ie Lineup the water tower to the north and the stone house to the west. Worked pretty well for them. I think we forget that GPS has really come mainstream in the last 20ish years.

I’d be interested to hear more about how Grest Duck comes into play for the treasure.

 

[Broken knee]

I have a great interest in the treasure "Lodged" by Captain Kidd. I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this 328 year old mystery, and am interested in the opinions and input of like minded treasure hunters.

View attachment 2179722

It’s believed that he stashed treasure on the first island in Sunderland on the Ct river

 

[BennyV]

It’s believed that he stashed treasure on the first island in Sunderland on the Ct river

There’s something in that area. But I’m not sure it’s his.

 

[Bocaj]

to give some idea how it could be applied:

- 515 SE from some other island or mainland port
- once coming around the head land enter the bay 50 N
'and by' means to sail into the bay max 50 but obviously before running aground! = -
- then sail or better anchor and row 36 NE until passing between the offshore rock/island
- continue further 36 NE until landing on the beach that is limited by a huge visible Rock on its eastern end.

Below that rock I would look for some cave or a similar structure. As there is a path drawn above it could be that this cave is only accessible from above but maybe better visible from below!

3x3x4 is simply the dugout so you know how far you need to dug in!

We don't know the length unit and probably won't until finding the island...

 

[Randawg72]

I want to add something very important IMO. On the map the "36 NE" is written twice. This prompt to a second cache near the first I have mentioned above, but because is under the words " 50 N " we have to go 5 degrees to the north from the marked tree. So, we have to go 72 yards 40 degres NE by N from the marked tree (green line). Seems there is a weird structure at the end of this third measurement.
Definitely, we have three directions with 5 degrees angle between each other from the marked tree, with the two directions for the caches to be reflections of the direction which is coming to the marked tree from the starting point.

Now let's do the math on what is written on one of the maps. IMHO, the most convenient spot to start a survey for this treasure, would be a specific stone (marked) on the west shore at the south end of the lagoon. From there we have to measure 515 yards SE and by 50* north (red line), which means 515 yards in a 140 degrees SW. Seems at the end of this measurement, there is a tree which would been marked somehow.
Now, from the tree we have to measure 36 yards NE (yellow line), which means we go by 45 degrees to the NE. Seems at the end of this measurement, there is a strange round shape with a sort of pile in the middle.
Also, the "ten turtles" clue from the map, could be rock shapes on the east shore of the island.

Good luck to those who will try to do this research, of course if they will be believe in this new info.

Markmar,
The directional info on the 'Coral' map has always been confusing. We don't know if Kidd meant feet, yards, or degrees. Or even the specific starting points. That is why the island's geography and landmarks are so important.

 

[Bocaj]

Markmar,
The directional info on the 'Coral' map has always been confusing. We don't know if Kidd meant feet, yards, or degrees. Or even the specific starting points. That is why the island's geography and landmarks are so important.

Feet certainly not as he explicitly write feet after each number on the last line to certainly distinguish them from the rest of the measurements!
515 deg? certainly neither
yards is a possibility, He did used yards on the skeleton map.