The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[Bocaj]

Marked them for you.

Kidd's map said: Skeleton of Leb
I never heard any solution to the meaning of 'Leb' but it could be that it describes a stone marker and not a real skeleton.

In any case the west coast is really out of boundary when it comes to Kidd's treasure. But it could help to know what kind of markers have been used in other places. Symbols those days were sourced from all kind of secret societies.

Kidd was Scottish so Freemasonry comes into mind. Skeletons related symbolism is popular with them as it was with the Templar Knights. This is also where the 'Scull and Crossbones' flag originated. It does make sense to mark treasures with those symbols as one likes to attract the attention of like-minded people to discover them again.

Reading about it also reveals that the winged scull was a quite common symbol on graves in 17th century America. Maybe you just found a poor man's grave.

 

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[CapnGeorge]

I have a great interest in the treasure "Lodged" by Captain Kidd. I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this 328 year old mystery, and am interested in the opinions and input of like minded treasure hunters.

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Read 'Anson's Gold' by George Edmunds, it's the full story of the fake 'Kidd' charts and where the real treasure island is.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Kidd's map said: Skeleton of Leb
I never heard any solution to the meaning of 'Leb' but it could be that it describes a stone marker and not a real skeleton.

In any case the west coast is really out of boundary when it comes to Kidd's treasure. But it could help to know what kind of markers have been used in other places. Symbols those days were sourced from all kind of secret societies.

Kidd was Scottish so Freemasonry comes into mind. Skeletons related symbolism is popular with them as it was with the Templar Knights. This is also where the 'Scull and Crossbones' flag originated. It does make sense to mark treasures with those symbols as one likes to attract the attention of like-minded people to discover them again.

Reading about it also reveals that the winged scull was a quite common symbol on graves in 17th century America. Maybe you just found a poor man's grave.

Read 'Anson's Gold', shows how the charts are fakes and why.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Sorry PGR,
But I think it may just be pareidolia. You will need more than that (and a sharper pic) if you want to solve Kidd's treasure puzzle.

It's solved! Read 'Anson' Gold'.

 

[Bocaj]

It's solved! Read 'Anson' Gold'.

you have made your point (without providing any real information but telling people what books they ought to read!). Whatever the book says you are on a rather bad track if you like to promote it the way you do!

In any case it just needed one post to make that rather shallow argument!

 

[CapnGeorge]

you have made your point (without providing any real information but telling people what books they ought to read!). Whatever the book says you are on a rather bad track if you like to promote it the way you do!

In any case it just needed one post to make that rather shallow argument!

Trouble is, the information needed, is book size!

 

[Bocaj]

Trouble is, the information needed, is book size!

So what is the argument then? That we are disqualified from expressing our ideas bc we didn't read your book and you are not able to argue your points without citing the whole thing. I think the book is about much more than just the maps so instead of wasting space on this forum try to be helpful and give us some idea why the maps are false in your opinion.

 

[Randawg72]

Read 'Anson's Gold' by George Edmunds, it's the full story of the fake 'Kidd' charts and where the real treasure island is.

Hi CG,
Thank you for your input but this topic was already covered back in post #59. To recap, "Kidd, the search for his treasure" by Edmunds is a very well researched and informative book. And I highly recommend it. "Anson's gold" was Edmunds' sequel "Kidd" book that he wrote out of frustration because he failed to find Kidd's treasure. I also feel that the narrative presents a false controversy in a weak attempt to sell books.
I urge anyone genuinely interested in the Kidd/Palmer charts to read Edmunds first "Kidd treasure" book and make your own conclusions.

 

[Randawg72]

PS: If the charts are Fake, how is it possible for them to point you to the "Real" treasure island?

 

[CapnGeorge]

hello, The journey>Kidd's charts to a lone island in the S Pacific is very complex and therefore impossible to cover in a few sentences here. 'Anson's Gold' spells it out in detail, which is why it is a big book. The book was not written out of frustration but because new research uncovered what really went on. And I don't make a penny out of the book, Amazon does that! What it reveals is for the benifit of you the treasure hunter, I am but the scribe. Thank you for your kind words re my Kidd book, but that is/was the first half of the story. The charts are a hoax/deception/fraud to lead you astray, very cleverly done because you need the key (100) to unlock them making you believe it really is an island in the South China Seas. Besides that, anyone with a knowledge of old English maps will tell you the cartography is modern, the creator trying to make them look like an old chart after that in 'Treasure Island'. Have you researched B Keiser on Juan Fernandez Island? Look at the island shape and turn it upside down, what have you got: the Kidd (Key) charts! Another stepping stone on the journey. I could tell you more but how much space/pages can I use?? (By the way, the author Harold Wilkins is the culprit!)

 

[Randawg72]

The charts are a hoax/deception/fraud to lead you astray, (By the way, the author Harold Wilkins is the culprit!)

Mr Edmunds,
If you really are George Edmunds, You are the world's leading expert on the Kidd/Palmer charts and I am a big fan and also a skeptic. I believe I have solved some of the clues and discovered a wealth of facts that the charts are genuine, and would love to discuss my findings with you someday.
Below is a re-posted response that I wrote back in November regarding the "Hoax" theory.

"So. You believe that the Kidd charts discovered by Hubert Palmer were an elaborate "Hoax"? If so, who perpetrated this Hoax and for what reason? And why would this alleged hoaxer 'hide' the charts in complex secret compartments not knowing whether or not Palmer would eventually even discover them?
Was it the various antique dealers?, Harold Wilkins?, or even Hubert Palmer himself?
Imagine the difficulty of locating four vintage 230 year old objects with hidden compartments (or modifying existing items with said compartments), Finding the correct era parchment paper and ink, then drawing four similar island charts, mimicking Kidd's handwriting, in which the subtle details evolve and interconnect. Then "fake age" them well enough to fool the leading expert on cartography at the time, the Superintendent of the Map Room at the British Museum.
Then you'd have to magically funnel these objects to Palmer over the course of Four years through multiple antique auctions and dealers. (Ten years if you count the Yunnan Parchment). And even though Palmer agreed to be interviewed for a book, he never published, tried to sell, or attempted to capitalize on the charts in any way for the rest of his life.

Sorry, But that is one giant Crock of S#!T!"

 

[CapnGeorge]

Mr Edmunds,
If you really are George Edmunds, You are the world's leading expert on the Kidd/Palmer charts and I am a big fan and also a skeptic. I believe I have solved some of the clues and discovered a wealth of facts that the charts are genuine, and would love to discuss my findings with you someday.
Below is a re-posted response that I wrote back in November regarding the "Hoax" theory.

"So. You believe that the Kidd charts discovered by Hubert Palmer were an elaborate "Hoax"? If so, who perpetrated this Hoax and for what reason? And why would this alleged hoaxer 'hide' the charts in complex secret compartments not knowing whether or not Palmer would eventually even discover them?
Was it the various antique dealers?, Harold Wilkins?, or even Hubert Palmer himself?
Imagine the difficulty of locating four vintage 230 year old objects with hidden compartments (or modifying existing items with said compartments), Finding the correct era parchment paper and ink, then drawing four similar island charts, mimicking Kidd's handwriting, in which the subtle details evolve and interconnect. Then "fake age" them well enough to fool the leading expert on cartography at the time, the Superintendent of the Map Room at the British Museum.
Then you'd have to magically funnel these objects to Palmer over the course of Four years through multiple antique auctions and dealers. (Ten years if you count the Yunnan Parchment). And even though Palmer agreed to be interviewed for a book, he never published, tried to sell, or attempted to capitalize on the charts in any way for the rest of his life.

Sorry, But that is one giant Crock of S#!T!"

Your opinion is respected and thank you for your kind words at the beginning. I don't believe, I KNOW they are a deception and you have described very well the circumstances of the finding of the charts. Wilkins was deviously clever in perpetrating the whole thing, The charts were meant to be found by someone clever enough to solve the (not so) subtle clues to guide you far away from the island where Wilkins knew there was a real treasure. They take you to Hei Ling Chou Island in the South China Seas, then by following the clues and knowing the bigger picture, - Juan Fernandez Island. B Keiser has been looking here for a long time. Why hasn't he found anything? It's not there! You have to know the bigger picture and what the Shugborough Monument code is all about to get to treasure island. Wilkins has put clues on his Mar Del charts in his book Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island. Rubbish charts but some real clues, which proved Wilkins was the instigator.
Does anyone know what happened to Paul Hawkings and his treasure hunt. He liked to rubbish my claims and said he had solved the charts - in the Indian Ocean, big expedition etc etc. Did he find it? I never did see any news or film of the recovery!

 

[Randawg72]

I don't believe, I KNOW they are a deception

At the risk of usurping Amazon's book royalties, is it possible for you to explain how you are so certain Mr Edmunds?

Wilkins was deviously clever in perpetrating the whole thing, The charts were meant to be found by someone clever enough to solve the (not so) subtle clues to guide you far away from the island where Wilkins knew there was a real treasure.

If Wilkins knew of the real treasure, then why didn't he ever attempt to retrieve it. Also, if he actually drew the Kidd/Palmer charts, why did he never pubish them in any of his books? And why are they so different from his "Mar Del" charts?

Juan Fernandez Island. B Keiser has been looking here for a long time. Why hasn't he found anything? It's not there! You have to know the bigger picture and what the Shugborough Monument code is all about to get to treasure island. Wilkins has put clues on his Mar Del charts in his book Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island. Rubbish charts but some real clues, which proved Wilkins was the instigator.
Does anyone know what happened to Paul Hawkings and his treasure hunt.

Keiser and Hawkins have been obviously looking in the wrong place. Shugborough Monument and the Anson's family connection is a convoluted and far fetched theory (Sorry, my opinion) and needless to say, Wilkins' influence has nothing to do with the location of Kidd's island.

He liked to rubbish my claims and said he had solved the charts - in the Indian Ocean, big expedition etc etc. Did he find it? I never did see any news or film of the recovery!

With due respect Mr Edmunds, you claimed "It's solved" in post #364 above. Where can I view the news coverage of your treasure recovery?

 

[CapnGeorge]

I left Kidd behind years ago. Because I am an underwater detectorist i happened across 'Treasure Net' and thought I would have a quick look. low and behold - Kidd's charts! and people still believe they are real! So frustrating, and of course I had to make a comment, and now look, dragged into a pot full of ridicule, disbelief and arguments. I am really not interested any more guys, I have a life outside of Kidd believe it or not, and am working on other books and projects more important that require my time. You are so certain of your opinions and know better, fine! go and find it using your solutions. Finally, to answer - I have explained how I am so certain in my book. If you are so keen on the subject, why don't you read it? might calm you down, and admit - 'Yes, of course'. If you think the Shugborough Monument has nothing to do with it, you are, sadly, disillusioned. Why do you think it's there? in Anson's home. Anson searched for this same treasure, which was Wilkins pot of gold. Why didn't he look? I think maybe a thing called WW2 got in the way. And me, never did! I wrote the book to tell the story and show the solution to the monument code, and anyway, I think it costs more than a back pack to mount an expedition in the South Pacific Ocean. Good hunting and goodbye, I'll look in again in a few months time to see how you are all getting on. But sorry, I have to say it; 'Nobody will ever find any treasure based on these charts that are nothing whatsoever to do with Kidd!'

 

[Bocaj]

The charts are a hoax/deception/fraud to lead you astray,

It can very well be that you are right but as long the treasure or at least the island isn't found I would not dismiss the maps. For my own research they fit nicely into my idea that Kidd's treasure is actually Avery's and that he somehow got the knowledge of it. Some data in the maps fit the description in the "Avery the Pirate" paper too well to be coincidental!

Besides that, anyone with a knowledge of old English maps will tell you the cartography is modern, the creator trying to make them look like an old chart after that in 'Treasure Island'.

The problem with that argument is that the Palmer Maps are no copies of nautical charts but seem to be a sketch made by whoever visited the place for the purpose of treasure not navigation. As drawing treasure maps wasn't common at the time its hard to know how a 17th century treasure map should look like! There are many small details on the Skeleton map that would never make it into a chart (not than, not now, not ever!). I didn't find any wording or drawing on them incompatible with the 17th century but I am willing to listen to arguments to prove it otherwise!

Have you researched B Keiser on Juan Fernandez Island? Look at the island shape and turn it upside down, what have you got: the Kidd (Key) charts! Another stepping stone on the journey.

I can show you many islands that not only are much closer in shape but with the right orientation as well! Apart obviously that many of the other features are totally amiss on Juan Fernandez!

We speak only of the Palmer Maps here as the Wilkins Charts are drawn by him from whatever information he could source from Palmer and treasure hunter groups of the day. Also Wilkins Charts are actual copies from a nautical chart with changes made to fit Wilkins narrative.

I could tell you more but how much space/pages can I use??

As much as needed - as long it contributes to our discussion here. We don't claim to have absolute prove of the maps being a total hoax or not. We are more than interested to hear your facts.

(By the way, the author Harold Wilkins is the culprit!)

It is very unfortunate that those two (Palmer and Wilkins) are always seen as one - which they are not, even they did know and correspond with each other.

 

[Bocaj]

I left Kidd behind years ago.

Good hunting and goodbye, I'll look in again in a few months time to see how you are all getting on. But sorry, I have to say it; 'Nobody will ever find any treasure based on these charts that are nothing whatsoever to do with Kidd!'

That is your privilege. But I call it uneducated behavior to basically shout "I solved it" without any prove and obviously not reading the posts we did before but mandating us to read you book (I didn't see any link where we can access it for free),

Al Fin - because of us not agreeing to your arguments that you aren't even posting here you basically call us stupid and goodby. We having a discussion here not a cult of any book or opinion and yes I have my strong reservation on the authenticity of the maps but honestly the rage of people when you not just agreeing that they are fake makes me curious.

And me, never did! I wrote the book to tell the story and show the solution to the monument code, and anyway, I think it costs more than a back pack to mount an expedition in the South Pacific Ocean. Good hunting and goodbye, I'll look in again in a few months time to see how you are all getting on. But sorry, I have to say it; 'Nobody will ever find any treasure based on these charts that are nothing whatsoever to do with Kidd!'

That's just your opinion sir and as you haven't found anything neither it is of little value by itself. It takes some courage to argue your ideas. So you came to discuss your ideas or just to shout at us and leave?

 

[CapnGeorge]

That is your privilege. But I call it uneducated behavior to basically shout "I solved it" without any prove and obviously not reading the posts we did before but mandating us to read you book (I didn't see any link where we can access it for free),

Al Fin - because of us not agreeing to your arguments that you aren't even posting here you basically call us stupid and goodby. We having a discussion here not a cult of any book or opinion and yes I have my strong reservation on the authenticity of the maps but honestly the rage of people when you not just agreeing that they are fake makes me curious.


That's just your opinion sir and as you haven't found anything neither it is of little value by itself. It takes some courage to argue your ideas. So you came to discuss your ideas or just to shout at us and leave?

But a proven opinion Sir, and like I said, I did not/could not look, the book was to tell the story for the benifit of interested parties. just trying to be helpful. laying it all out for you. Your choice whether or not you want to take any of it on board. That's all folks!

 

[Bocaj]

But a proven opinion Sir, and like I said, I did not/could not look, the book was to tell the story for the benifit of interested parties. just trying to be helpful. laying it all out for you. Your choice whether or not you want to take any of it on board. That's all folks!

Proven by whom? (if I may ask so)

I am all in for you and everyone else here being helpful. Your books have been mentioned before here so this is nothing new to anyone here. As for reading your books - if it is not a promotion but a help I expect you at least to post (or PM) us a link to a copy so that we can read it or alternatively post the relevant parts here.

As I mentioned before this isn't a forum discussing a specific book and while your input is certainly very welcome here please understand that we are no disciples of anyone here and each of us has the same authority and value to speak out. Maybe you haven't read my texts neither but that is neither diminishing nor elevating yourself.

Please do to us in return as you are expecting to be treated yourself Sir and start with you arguments here on this forum so we can discuss them here in a friendly manner of equals.

 

[CapnGeorge]

Proven by whom? (if I may ask so)

I am all in for you and everyone else here being helpful. Your books have been mentioned before here so this is nothing new to anyone here. As for reading your books - if it is not a promotion but a help I expect you at least to post (or PM) us a link to a copy so that we can read it or alternatively post the relevant parts here.

As I mentioned before this isn't a forum discussing a specific book and while your input is certainly very welcome here please understand that we are no disciples of anyone here and each of us has the same authority and value to speak out. Maybe you haven't read my texts neither but that is neither diminishing nor elevating yourself.

Please do to us in return as you are expecting to be treated yourself Sir and start with you arguments here on this forum so we can discuss them here in a friendly manner of equals.

There is no more I can say. I don't argue, just discussing trying to get a point over. If you want a link then I assume you have already read: AnsonsGold.com? The publisher has 'gone under' so copies are only available from Amazon. (they make the money, not me) . Last time I looked you could get a copy for as little as £12, The seller even has a write up/synopsis on it. To post the relevant parts would be to post half the book!! I don't have the time, and why should I? I've moved on, more important things to do. Twenty years of work and research for £12!! Bargain, I would have bought it. Can I go and lie down now?

 

[Bocaj]

There is no more I can say. I don't argue, just discussing trying to get a point over.

You don't 'argue' you are discussing - ok. What are you discussing exactly? You are promoting your book! I have not seen an argument. All I get so far are marching orders and "I know", "its proven", "its solved".

If you want a link then I assume you have already read: AnsonsGold.com? The publisher has 'gone under' so copies are only available from Amazon. (they make the money, not me)

Well then I am certain you loose nothing to send me a pdf version by PM (being helpful was your concern right?).

. Last time I looked you could get a copy for as little as £12, The seller even has a write up/synopsis on it. To post the relevant parts would be to post half the book!! I don't have the time, and why should I? I've moved on, more important things to do.

So you just pass by here and give you underlings some free (almost) advice and then move on to more important things your royalty has to be concerned about?

Now (after you had your snooze) do you have any direct prove that those maps are fakes?
Analyses of handwriting, paper, wording?
Do you have some better resolution, quality copies of the maps to analyze? Any unpublished photos and surveys of the furnitures?
Some information of substance so we can elevate this discussion above the character bashing level?