the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

As residents of Florida for almost 30 years, where could my parents go and see "All artifacts recovered by archaeologists" since they are "forever accessible to scholars, students and the general public" ?

GENERAL PUBLIC????????
I would like to know, where's all the Recovered relic's from Saint Augustine O' my bad.
there in a Mildew Closet on Marine street.
I been down south for awhile Commercial Fishing, rules are changing too. Treasure Hunting,
and Commercial Fishing is in the same boat!!!!

Sapper
 

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Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

uh its "accessible" IF --you know in advance what it is that your looking for --then you go to tallahassee ( to the RA Grey building) during bussiness hours and ask to see it , then after filling out the proper forms and showing your ID you can the "see" the "public's treasure" -- in some very rare cases if you put on gloves you might be able to "almost" touch it --if your lucky that is -- yep its clearly open to the public no doubt about it. (note who its there for to be seen by --- #1 scholars (archies) #2 students (future archies) --and last of all #3 the general public ====who do not know exactly whats in the "collection" and where its and how to access it --- so really the general public has little to no real chance of seeing most of it -- they might see a bit that on display in the basement of the R A Grey building --but most stuff is not on display
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

bikerlawyer,
93 "written opinions"?? You must have had to swim back to shore father than Scott and I and have come in later than we did. There were over 800 (and still going on when we realized what a wasted day!! And many from the same person, and many who knows absolutely nothing about salvage or how items are handled and preserved. I would have thought that strength was in numbers but I was told most did not want their company represented there so as not to be singled out and shunned and ignored at permit time. Shame to have to be "unheard" to try and save an industry we so much believe in. Did anyone else see Dan McClearion sleeping??
The first thing I noticed at the museum was that all the artifacts on display do not even offer the name of the salver or salvage co. who spent their livelyhood and took the physical and financial risks to be able to offer it to the public to see.

Tough world we live in

Diverlynn
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

There were 900+ public comments, and about 10 of them were pro-treasure hunting. This is what I was trying to say, if we would have gotten off our butts and sent in comments, they would have had to read them as well, but instead, we let the zealots stack the deck. I posted one of the form letters above in this thread, it went out to over 600 members of the SAAA. LAMP had a similar email with even more parties receiving it.

We lost step one, that's for sure. Now we will be applying for salvage leases following the new rules, and when are denied...the lawsuits will begin. (step 2) I wish more people would have sent in an email. With the time we all spend on TNET each day, we could have stacked the deck AGAINST them, but only about 10 people managed a few minutes to send something. ::)
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

ACLU of Florida

Executive Director: Howard Simon
4500 Biscayne Blvd., Suite 340
Miami, FL 33137
Phone: 786-363-2700
Fax: 305-576-1106
E-mail: [email protected]

Northwest Florida Office:
ACLU Northwest Florida
PO Box 12723
Pensacola, Florida 32591-2723
Phone: 850-429-9128


Legislative Office:
Larry Helm Spalding
Legislative Staff Counsel
ACLU 314 West Jefferson Street
Tallahassee, FL 32301-1608
Phone: 850-425-1050
Fax: 850-425-5097
E-mail: [email protected]

West Central Florida Office:
P.O. Box 18245
Tampa, FL 33679-8245
Phone: 813-254-0925
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Well folks,I sent my e-mail in.I asked them to be fair and without prejudice,
and consider where many of the finds they have are from.Also to consider
the funding issues,as private enterprise uses it's own money,not taxpayers.
Am I suprised at the results of the meeting-not at all.Remember they have
access to all the people at the universities,and can get as many letters and
comments as they want.They just use the "herd " mentality,and all the
comments will be as they want them to be.It will have to come down to
"shining the light" on whats going on behind the scene.Like what Steve did
in Alabama.The corruption,misappropriating of funds,misuse of power,etc.,
all came to the surface.A law suit may be the only way to stop this arrogance.
It reminds me of terrorism-if you're not chasing them,they are after you.It's
hard to comprehend that type of narrow minded,prejudiced thinking from a
group of educated people.It's like the KKK of archeologist.Hope they don't
burn a cross on any of the salvor's lawns.It's time to fight.Good luck, Joe
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

This meeting that you all went to was supposed to be a secret meeting so that treasure hunters wouldnt be able to attend,but the info was leaked to a treasure hunter so that we could attend.The state was in direct violation of the laws they make by not notifying anyone else in the treasure industry.

Q. What is the Sunshine Law?
A. Florida's Government-in-the-Sunshine law provides a right of access to governmental proceedings at both the state and local levels. It applies to any gathering of two or more members of the same board to discuss some matter which will foreseeably come before that board for action. There is also a constitutionally guaranteed right of access. Virtually all state and local collegial public bodies are covered by the open meetings requirements with the exception of the judiciary and the state Legislature which has its own constitutional provision relating to access.

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A. The Sunshine law requires that 1) meetings of boards or commissions must be open to the public; 2) reasonable notice of such meetings must be given, and 3) minutes of the meeting must be taken.

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A. The Government-in-the-Sunshine Law applies to "any board or commission of any state agency or authority or of any agency or authority of any county, municipal corporation or political subdivision." Thus, it applies to public collegial bodies within the state at both the local as well as state level. It applies equally to elected or appointed boards or commissions.

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A. Federal agencies operating in the state do not come under Florida's Sunshine law.

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A. Florida's Constitution provides that meetings of the Legislature be open and noticed except those specifically exempted by the Legislature or specifically closed by the Constitution. Each house is responsible through its rules of procedures for interpreting, implementing and enforcing these provisions. Information on the rules governing openness in the Legislature can be obtained from the respective houses.

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The fight begins.....
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I was there at the start of the meeting, had submitted my written comments the day before, but could have sworn they said there were 93 written opinions.

I may be wrong, but if there were 900, at an average length of 1 minute of reading, it would have taken 15 hours to read them all!

I left around 3:00 cause I was so disgusted I couldn't listen to it anymore.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

ScubaFinder said:
...if we would have gotten off our butts and sent in comments, they would have had to read them as well, but instead, we let the zealots stack the deck. I posted one of the form letters above in this thread, it went out to over 600 members of the SAAA. LAMP had a similar email with even more parties receiving it.
.......
Click to expand...

Jason,

There are at least 8 of my associates that sent in the electronic comments from the link that I witnessed personally and I also know of more than a few that sent in snail mail - and that's just in tiny little Pensacola. You can bet your bottom dollar that if they had 3000 pro-treasure hunting letters they would have never let that stack be anywhere near their questionable anti-treasure hunting stack to read from. I do admire and respect your passion with this whole thing, I just wanted to point out that I do think many people from our side of the fence did send in their comments. Nothing you can do when they're playing with a loaded deck.

The only reason why they had a "meeting" was to be on record as it being a parliamentary proceeding that fits in to the loose term of democracy. If they truly wanted to "protect" these sites, they wouldn't have slammed the door on salvors - I think it's more a matter of them exercising their muscle to what they perceive as THEIR territory. It's almost as if they want to encourage the plundering of illegal sites. It just doesnt make sense. You can bet they just created a very large looting community.

Pcola
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

This type of argument for state action to "benefit the public" drives me crazy! I see more benefit to finding this lost treasure than letting it remain lost. Doesn't the public benefit more from having these items found and preserved than not ever having them see the light of day and possibly being lost forever. How much treasure over the years has been found and the state just sat on it and done nothing with it, not even put it on display for the "public" to enjoy? Also, what about the economic impact of this decision? How many more jobs and industries can Florida afford to loose to stupidity? Where would we be today if our state leaders had had the foresight to come up with an environmentally sound drilling policy for offshore oil? Do you think we would have 4 dollar gas today if they had. As with the oil issue, peoples opinions can and do change.

I do not understand why we cannot put a system together like they have in England. From everything I have seen it seems to work well and there seems to be a good relationship between Treasure Hunters/Salvers and the Archaeologist. Under the English system the public truly is benefited.

I think it is time that we took a more organized approach to this problem, that is what the Archaeologists did. If this rule change passes it will not only kill the salvage industry it will eventually result in the death of metal detecting in Florida. We need to come together and get sufficient numbers so our voices will be heard. If anyone else feels this way, please contact me so that we can start coming up with our own plan to deal with this situation. Besides being an avid treasure hunter (on weekends) I am a full time attorney here in Florida, so if my day job can help the cause out, I am ready.

We need to form a political action group and lobby for change in the state government. We need to do public service commercials to truly educate the public on the situation and the economic benefit of the industry. We need to get Archaeologist who would support a law similar to that of England on board with us. This is a fight that can be won, it will just take time and organized effort. An entire industry in Florida could be destroyed because of ignorance and stupidity, we need to take a stand.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

You'd think the overall goal of research, exploration, discovery, and learning that some acceptable common ground could be agreed upon.

To sit back and suggest that the resources are best left rotting is contrary to reality.

The other issue that is not getting raised is that all the wrecks in state waters were given to them under the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987. They were also given rather explicit guidelines with respect to managing them. At some point this get pushed to another level, I'm surprised no one has in TX and some other states.

Interesting reading: http://www.nps.gov/archeology/submerged/intro.htm

The state governments and university's combined don't have the resources to even begin to even locate and vaguely identify the vast numbers of sites and anomalies. As Jason said earlier we're willing to do it right on our nickle, how can you legally prevent it from happening.

The other double standard at play here is that there are permits being given to other interested wreck hunting groups with little or no training, supervision, and they are poorly funded and equipped. How is it that they are allowed to operate under the radar? And their actions are acceptable? Are they going to shut them down too, I suspect they'll soon have a dog in this fight too.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

To the lawyers here that want to help,or anyone else for that matter.There already is a organization that has been formed to fight this.Its called "HSSPC" Historic Shipwreck Policy Council of Florida.I dont know if they have a website or not.Those in charge are Jim sinclair,John Brandon and taffy fisher and a few others.
I would like to help but dont know what to do,im not a lawyer,all i can do is spread the word on the net an maybe keel haul a few that dont agree with us.I do have a 2 good friends thats are private investigators and friends in the media biz as well.

http://www.imacdigest.com/future.html
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Fisheye, I'm a member of HSPC, I mentioned the organization above. Biker Lawyer was also at the last meeting, so the one who wants to help is already there...it's coming. They don't have a website yet, but I'm getting ready to start on it, just need a few minutes with Taffi.

Jason
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

ScubaFinder,

In actuality, how many people went to the this meeting that have posted on this topic or thread?

I should say, actually attended the meeting w/ active participation and voice.

Taking a quote from your earlier post.
"I'd like to know from where so we can add it to our list of things to discuss at the meeting next week." Jason

Can you inform us as to what "you" actually voiced (in general) during the meeting and how much impact you feel it may have had? you are passionate about this we all see and commend you for your efforts and looking forward to your comments?

Trez
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

It's not that complicated. A lawsuit will be forthcoming. Who knows by whom? They better not focus on "fairness of rules," but focus on the current property of the people of Florida.

How much is really accounted for?
How much has been recovered by nonprofit vs. salvors?
Is the conservation between the two groups that different?
What is the current status of that conservation by the state? By salvors?
How accessible is it to the people they claim it belongs to?
How accessible are the artifacts salvors have recovered?

Answer these and a few more questions and it really shatters the core of their defense. Forget the looters - does the state think thieves will suddenly pay attention to these new rules? They're looters for crying out loud! You have to design the law for those who are trying to do it right. And those who are trying to do it right will have to show the state the error of their ways in a courtroom, not in "public" meetings or forums.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Darren makes a good point, but be prepared as a lawsuit is not a cheap solution. If that is the way this is going to go, everyone involved is going to have to be prepared for a long and costly fight. I think there needs to be a two prong attack on this issue: A lawsuit and lobbying efforts for a new law or overhaul of the existing law. If you choose one over the other you are limiting your chances of success in my humble opinion.

It might also be time to reinvent the public image of the industry and hobby. A few years back the American Trial Lawyers Association did some research and found that the term "Trial Lawyer" had a negative image with the public so they changed their name to the "American Association for Justice." I am not sure if it has made a difference or not, but it is something to think about. Public image today has a lot to do with the results you are able to achieve in business and in dealing with the government.

From what I have experienced, the general public misunderstands treasure hunters in general. They do not see the good that comes out of our activities. How much history has come to light because of the activity of treasure hunters? I would say a lot and it is time the public is made aware of that.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

The DHR has opened the door for changes in the rules, and changes are needed big time. We should, as a community embrace this opportunity to work within the states rule making guidelines to effect a positive change in our behalf. This will take allot of hard work as the deck is currently stacked against us. However, all is not yet lost. This will be a game of political brinks-manship that will have to be fought on multiple fronts both publically and politically.
Our numbers a small, and I believe that the treasure hunting community is up to the task. We need to unite and organize now!

Tom
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Treasure hunters seem to be apathetic to forming a united front. HSPC is powerless, the DHR just ignores them. They are not the first ones. It started 14 years ago with the Treasure Coast Coalition. Nothing happened. Then came ProSea and then Sea Rex. Again- nothing changed. What we need is to sue the DHR but like fllawboy pointed out it is going to be expensive. Who will pay?
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Hello All,
Having read along with this topic for awhile I am wondering......If the state of Florida requires "Approved" Archies on each treasure hunting boat and those archies can not work for a hunter that sells for profit his findings, the how do the Fishers do it? I have to believe they too must have the "Approved" Archie on each boat and we all know they sell some of what they find. Am I missing something? Are they Grandfathered in and don't follow the same rules?
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

grandfathered -- prior leases --so long as they are renewed the terms of the past hold -- these leases were before the archies had to be "state approved" most likely so a "normal archie" most likely covers the terms of contract --- besides their are a few "grandfathered" archies from the past --the state lost to mel fisher over the 1715 fleet and thus they fairly much leave them be via sepreme court order in the 1715 wreck site area -- the state and fed govt took a real "black eye" in that one
 

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