the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

if the dive shop had german remains from a WW2 (sub) vessel they sould have been charged with disturbing a war grave -- all military vessels are covered by this international law --no looting or removing items from warships * ---I myself think its ghoulish to remove human remains for public "display" items -- man made items yes --bodies no let them rest in peace where they are -- removing items of worth or use from a wreck is one thing --(the dead no longer can use or have need of them -- however we the living do )-- but there is no need to haul the dead from their place of rest . (ps this "rule*" is already "on the books" so why redo it again?)

I'm just worried about the rule being "twisted" or abused to deny permits at will.
 

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Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Dell, I was with L. Frank Hudson when they arrested him and charged him with racketeering. The poor old guy spent 3 weeks in the jail infirmary and then they just let him go. The stste archaeologist at the time, Jim Miller claimed we had dug up human remains. I pointed out that it was the remains of my lunch from KFC!
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I see that the state HRD has conveniently scheduled this hearing at the start of the dive season.

Tom
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

yes a thursday at 1 pm in tallahassee at their "home turf" --- a very logical time / place if you do not want "normal" folks to show up and want to "rail road " something along while being able to say see we had a meeting -- and no one came --- so we can just do as we please cuz no one objected -- notice the meeting info was put out only 3 weeks before hand (short notice) --- I am a bit leery but hopeful about the meeting --- we shall see.-- Ivan
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Can anyone give a report of the meeting?
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

ScubaFinder should have one. ::)
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

there was a good bit of salvors there --we got up --spoke our piece about this badly flawed bit of rule making ideas -- afterward they brought "forth" --90 e mails that were almost all totally anti treasure hunter in nature -- they said "shut down all treasure hunting" in the state of florida--- the state read them "into the the record" in effect stuffing the ballot box -- so they can say later that according to their "data" the "public" supports them in this matter. its a sad attempt at trying to say that the public at large is anti treasure hunting rather than pro treasure hunting--we badly need for folks to e mail them and tell them that you support salvors rights to make a honest living and point out that salvage projects allow archies to be in the feild and allows the state to earn money via fees paid by the salvors and selling off of excess items to other measums and that legal salvage helps stop looting --and that most of the many unique items in states collections today came from the efforts of salvors of the past. ----- please see fisheyes post 2 below to leave you comment for the state --- let your ":voice" be heard -- however please keep it clean and thoughtful --- Ivan
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Ivan,
I will be glad to do just that if you will post an email addy to send it to.
I bet the whole of T-Net will do the same.

Thom
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

old dog,


Spread the link all over t-net and the net and on forums all over.tell them to support us.

http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

Leave your comments.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Fisheye,
You got it Buddy,
You might want to post this in the Florida State section as well.
With an explanation it will probably gat a great response.

Thom
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Hello All:

I have been blessed with the opportunity to be a state approved underwater archaeologist. I could see the hand-writting on the wall years ago and realized that without an archaeologist, little or no underwater work could be done in the future. I went to East Carolina University and studied under Gordon Watts, (a true pioneer in the field of u/w archaeology). I did my thesis on the U.S.S. Peterhoff. The Peterhoff was the first shipwreck ever to be placed on the National Register of Historic Places. In spite of that fact, no detailed survey had ever been performed on the site. I had to obtain permits from the North Carolina Division of Historical Resources, National Park Service and the U.S. Naval Historical Center (since the US Navy retains ownership of all their vessels) In college we spent 8 weks diving in Bermuda and had the opportunity to meet Teddy Tucker. some of my fellow graduate-students were appaled that we "future archaeologist" were going to me a "treasure hunter." Gordon Watts told us..."this treasure hunter has FOUND more wrecks than you will ever SEE in your lifetime." YES THERE IS SO MUCH TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER!!!

Some professors probably wouldn't agree with what I have done since graduation. When I later took a job with HRD, Gordon told me it was easy for academic archaeologist to say "thou shalt not work with treaure hunters." But I am the one who needs to support my family, (not to mention pay back $40,000 + in student loans.) I don't see them lining up to help me.

I have worked on shipwreck projects ranging from blockade runners to Spanish galleons. Projects like Queen Anne's Revege to Great Lakes schooners. I have worked in Bermuda, Haiti, VA, SC, NC, FL, Cape Cod, Mexico, the Bahamas, the Great Lakes, etc. It has been a rewarding career.

In Florida I have done work for Historical Research & Development, Inc., Historical Maritime Surveying, LLC, Florida Research Recovery Group, Maritime Explorations, and the Maritime Archaeological Research Institute, among others. I know my work is under exception scrutiny since I am working with treasure hunters. I know my work and reports need to be "above and beyond" the expected. I have had tremendous positive feedback from the BAR. I feel I have a good working relationship with them.

Still the problems are there. The recent updates made to be a registered professional archaeologist are a catch 22. To be an approved archaeologist in Fl you need to be an RPA archaeologist, yet to be an RPA archaeologist, you need to agree to their code of conduct which prohibits you from working for for profit companies. I am still an RPA approved archaeologist. I am working with several companies, but once one of these exploration premits gets turned into salvage, I would need to resign from RPA and thus the company would suddenly be without an archaeologist...DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE PARADOX HERE?

Likewise, I just talked to a company that wanted to know if I was qualified to work in VA. I worked on several confederate gunboats scuttled in the James River a few years ago. The problem they were having was that their archaeologist they had for three years WAS qualified to supervise projects in VA. They passed some new regulations and that person no longer meets their minimum requirements...WHAT has changed? He has the same education he did three years ago, now he has 3 years MORE experience...suddenly he is NO LONGER QUALIFIED!! How can more experience unqualify you??

It is a difficult world out there, and not just for the treasure hunters. For all you archaeologist bashing, there are many of us who feel your plight and are often facing the same kind of opposition. Both sides can learn a lot from each other. if I can be of any assistance to anyone, please feel free to contact me.

Rob Westrick MA.
nautical archaeologist
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

that little catch "22" is called restrait of trade / livelyhood -- it prevents BOTH THE SALVORS AND THE ARCHIES THAT WISHED TO WORK FOR THEM from making a living --either PRA has to drop the " members will not work for for profits" from its ethics creed --or else the state has to drop being a member of PRA as the basis for being "a qualified archie" -- because to require that you have a archie from a group that doesn't work for "for profeit" gruops in effect bars you from ever getting a salvage permit --because once you apply to recover / salvage --the achie WILL HAVE TO QUIT OR LOSE "APPROVED STATUS" WHICH WILL THEN "FORCE" HIM OUT --EITHER WAY ONCE YOU GO SALVAGE NO ARCHIES TO WORK FOR YOU --ITS A IMPOSSIBLE BAR TO JUMP

trust me its an open door to a "slam dunk" lawsuit
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

After having to swim in off a very rough sea, traveling 6 hours, $140 in gas (one way) to Tallahassee for this so called "meeting" then another 5 hours driving home I can honestly say WHAT A CROCK!!! Scott (our now Archie hopeful, due to being ignored by the state, now that he has spent years and $35K on his education and is now qualified to be a full blown Archie but has yet been recognized as such by the state due to his associations) and I made the meeting late. Meeting?? Only a handful of folks made the meeting that we could see. Maybe most has left before we got there due to the yahoo who spent hours reading emails from "concerned citizens" against the "plunders and looters of the oceans". I came into this industry with respect for the state and what they stood for, now? Just educated politicitions who will see their day in court for the injustices they have and are causing.
Are you all aware that the university received their salvage permit off the Gulf Coast within 24 hours of applying for it? Yep.
Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it...
Diverlynn
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

Diverlynn,

Which university got a salvage permit? And wheres thier wreck in the gulf?What wreck is it?Maybe some ole fashioned investigative reporting needs to be done there to see what is going on.What they are bring up.What human remains are there.Do they have a archie on site all the time.Who got paid off to get them thier salvage permit so fast.Its all public information.anyone here go to the university?
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Fisheye ,im not for sure but it could be u.w.f. they just found a shipwreck in pensacola bay 1720.........The state is good at getting what they want..They know how to make something good look bad ,and also something bad look good....Like toxic areas,trust me i know from exp....... Goodluck to yall,its not going to slow relicdude down much ... They made all the red snapper fishermen sell there boats around me,nobody wants to pay 200 dollars to go and catch 2 fish anymore..They can go to red lobster for alot less..
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

ScubaFinder said:
I see you guys have plenty of time to type opinions about what the state is up to....how many of you have gone to the website and typed your comments to the people that matter?
...........
Click to expand...

Even though I'm not a professional salvor (I'd certainly like to be), I have written snail-mail, called my state representative, and have done the online comments. It's clear that the state intends to place a sort of blanket imminent domain on things that it doesn't bother to "research" and "collect" for itself. This all goes back to my arguement that this is driven by a small number of high-profile archaeologists that want to wield unprecedented power for their own self-preservation and interests - even at the cost of letting countless shipwrecks disintegrate to the elements.

Get involved and get others involved!!!

Pcola
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I hate to say it Dell,

But that is what it is down to everywhere.
Not just Florida,
Look at all the things that are just taken away
From the tiny all the way up the ladder.

And there are guys on here who just can't figure this out.

Thom
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I must say I was very disappointed in the results of the meeting.

It was interesting, however, that the people supporting the salvage world dropped everything and traveled all the way to Tally on short notice to have their voices heard, only to be thumped viciously by the 93 "written opinions" that were read into the record, of which probably 99% were anti-treasure hunting.

Was it just me or did those written opinions sound kind of like a form letter that someone sent out to "interested parties" to ensure a healthy negative response? I mean, come on, one of them was from someone in Australia!

First of all, how did all these people find out about the rule change and more importantly, why should their input carry as much weight as the voice of someone who has devoted their life to these projects?

I went downstairs into the museum and was in awe of the artifacts they have there, what a bunch of history! They argue the stuff belongs to the people of Florida, but how are the people ever gonna get to see it and learn history from it if it just sits in the ocean decaying or worse, being looted?

Better sharpen your pencils folks, if this business is to survive, we're in for a fight!
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

ScubaFinder said:
All artifacts recovered by archaeologists are analyzed by specialists but remain the property of the people of Florida, and they are either put on display or remain intact as a collection forever accessible to scholars, students, and the general public.
Click to expand...

Now its been a while since I lived in Florida, but can any of you tell me if this is true?

As residents of Florida for almost 30 years, where could my parents go and see "All artifacts recovered by archaeologists" since they are "forever accessible to scholars, students and the general public" ?

Thanks for some great posts Jason, and good luck!

-Jeff
 

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Tommy Gore in Stuart

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