the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Okay, for someone who is stuck up north, and I mean north of Canada right now, can we get some solid information on here?

When/where are the meeting(s) to be held?:cussing:
What changes are being considered or proposed? :evil5:

(Please, dont post heresay on what you have heard someone else say. Post what is in writing somewhere, include a link if possible, so that all can read it, not just over hearing something in a conversation that may occur in a <heaven forbid> bar. :argue:
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

Jim,

Rule changes and meeting date.

http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:51:30 -0400
From: "Wheeler, Ryan J." <[email protected]>
To: "Wheeler, Ryan J." <[email protected]>


The Division of Historical Resources proposes amendments to Chapter 1A-31, Florida Administrative Code, Exploration and Salvage of Historic Shipwreck Sites. Interested parties are encouraged to attend the rule development workshop (see notice, below) or submit comments via our website at: http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

The purpose of this rule is to provide guidance and information regarding issuance of permits by the division for exploration and salvage of historic shipwreck sites by commercial salvors on state-owned sovereignty submerged lands. The rule also provides guidelines for transferring objects recovered by commercial salvors under permit in exchange for recovery services provided to the state. The rule amendment is also in response to suggestions from JAPC.


Notice of Development of Rulemaking

DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Division of Historical Resources
RULE NO: RULE TITLE
1A-31.0015: Definitions
1A-31.0035: Agreements for Exploration or Salvage of Archaeological Materials
1A-31.0055: Exploration Agreements
1A-31.0065: Salvage Agreements
1A-31.010: Supervision
1A-31.011: Boats to Carry Identification
1A-31.013: Prohibited Practices; Penalties
PURPOSE AND EFFECT: The purpose of this rule is to provide guidance and information regarding issuance of permits by the division for exploration and salvage of historic shipwreck sites by commercial salvors on state-owned sovereignty submerged lands. The rule also provides guidelines for transferring objects recovered by commercial salvors under permit in exchange for recovery services provided to the state.
The rule amendment is also in response to suggestions from JAPC.
SUBJECT AREA TO BE ADDRESSED: This rule is to provide guidance and information regarding issuance of permits by the division for exploration and salvage of historic shipwreck sites by commercial salvors on state-owned sovereignty submerged lands. The rule also provides guidelines for transferring objects recovered by commercial salvors under permit in exchange for recovery services provided to the state.
The rule amendment is also in response to suggestions from JAPC.
SPECIFIC AUTHORITY: 20.10(3), 267.031(1), 267.115(6), 267.13(2)(e) FS.
LAW IMPLEMENTED: 267.031(2), 267.031(5)(i),(k),(o), 267.061(1), 267.115, 267.13, 267.14 FS.

A RULE DEVELOPMENT WORKSHOP WILL BE HELD AT THE DATE, TIME AND PLACE SHOWN BELOW:
DATE AND TIME: June 26, 2008, 1:00 p.m.
PLACE: R. A. Gray Building , Heritage Hall, 500 S. Bronough Street , Tallahassee , FL 32399-0250

Pursuant to the provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act, any person requiring special accommodations to participate in this workshop/meeting is asked to advise the agency at least 5 days before the workshop/meeting by contacting: Charlotte Wheeler (850)245-6536. If you are hearing or speech impaired, please contact the agency using the Florida Relay Service, 1(800)955-8771 (TDD) or 1(800)955-8770 (Voice).
THE PERSON TO BE CONTACTED REGARDING THE PROPOSED RULE DEVELOPMENT AND A COPY OF THE PRELIMINARY DRAFT, IF AVAILABLE, IS: Stephen S. Mathues, (850)245-6536

Ryan J. Wheeler, Ph.D.
State Archaeologist and Chief,
Bureau of Archaeological Research

B. Calvin Jones Center for Archaeology at the Governor Martin House
1001 de Soto Park Drive, Tallahassee, FL 32301
Phone: 850.245.6301
FAX: 850.245.6452
E-mail: [email protected]

Please take a few minutes to provide feedback on the quality of service you received from our staff. The Florida Department of State values your feedback as a customer. Kurt Browning, Florida’s Secretary of State, is committed to continuously assessing and improving the level and quality of services provided to you. Simply click on the link to the "DOS Customer Satisfaction Survey." Thank you in advance for your participation. DOS Customer Satisfaction Survey
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Thanks John. Now I have something to read while I am here at work.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Let me ask a question then. Is this only for large operations. Can people still look for coins and wrecks as a hobby in shallow water.

If you dont find a wreck but you find the gold can you keep it?

Ian
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

This concerns all involved.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Look what's going around St. Augustine right now:

Help save Stop Treasure Hunting in Florida waters

Please distribute this Action Alert to the SAAA community:
ACTION ALERT!!! LET OUR STATE LAWMAKERS KNOW THAT TREASURE HUNTING IS NOT GOOD FOR FLORIDA ARCHAEOLOGY OR THE PEOPLE OF FLORIDA!!!

Dear SAAA members and others who care about Florida Archaeology,

Word is spreading about an opportunity that might lead to the end of state-sanctioned treasure hunting in Florida waters, but the time to act is now!. We encourage everyone who cares about Florida history and archaeology to visit a public comment webpage the state has established in conjunction with their proposed new 1A-31 regulations for treasure hunting. While these rules are a step in the right direction, they do not go far enough. We’d like to send the message to Tallahassee loud and clear that treasure hunting is detrimental to our state’s great archaeological heritage and that it should be banned outright.

The public comment webpage is http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

As any friend of Florida archaeology knows, our state has had an unfortunate legacy of treasure hunting which has been legal since the 1960s. At that time there were few if any archaeologists who were divers and none were working underwater. But today in the 21st century, there are dozens of underwater archaeologists working in our state and we are known as a center for underwater archaeological research and outreach programs. That treasure hunting is still allowed by the state, when it is banned in almost every other state and in many nations, is a blemish on the otherwise fine reputation of historic preservation, research archaeology, and public archaeology in the state of Florida. Dozens of historically significant colonial shipwrecks have been virtually destroyed by treasure hunters, it is time this practice came to an end.

The goal of archaeologists is to generate knowledge and increase our understanding of the past. This is done by using scientific methods, much like a crime scene forensic scientist, when excavating a historic shipwreck site. All artifacts recovered by archaeologists are analyzed by specialists but remain the property of the people of Florida, and they are either put on display or remain intact as a collection forever accessible to scholars, students, and the general public. The goal of the treasure hunter or commercial salvor is to make money for a few individuals by recovering and selling artifacts belonging to the people of Florida. The methodology used by treasure hunters is non-scientific, not up to the standards used by archaeologists, and often destructive in nature. Salvors cannot make profits by spending time on meticulous recording and expensive analyses like archaeologists do. Artifacts sold away—artifacts which are the property of the people of Florida—are usually never available for scientific analysis or available for museums or classrooms. A shipwreck site worked by treasure hunters always means a loss of knowledge about our past that could have been recovered if it had been investigated by archaeologists.

Why are some private individuals allowed to sell state property for their private gain, at the expense of our understanding of history? This is not responsible management of our cultural and archaeological heritage. In the 21st century, Florida should no longer be in the treasure hunting business.

Please go to http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/ and let the state know that treasure hunting is bad for Florida. You can express yourself however you’d like, and you might use any of the topics I’ve mentioned above. Or, you can certainly keep it simple and write one to two sentences such as these: “Treasure hunting should not be legal in state waters. Treasure hunting is not the same as archaeology and should be banned in Florida. These new rules are a step in the right direction but do not go far enough, treasure hunting should not be allowed at all. Why is it legal for treasure hunters to sell state property using unscientific standards when archaeologists conduct their research responsibly and the people of Florida retain ownership of all artifacts? Florida history should not be for sale, commercial salvage of historic shipwrecks should not be allowed.”

Many of us in the archaeological community feel that this rule change may be the first step in outlawing commercial treasure hunting in Florida, especially if we can show them that our communities appreciate archaeology and history and are united against treasure hunting. It is important that you ACT NOW! Please take a minute RIGHT NOW, visit the webpage, and leave a brief comment. A public hearing will be held on this issue next Thursday (June 26) so we need these online comments to be coming in mass before that date—only days away! If we act together, we can all play a role in protecting Florida’s rich archaeological record, and finally put a close to this unfortunate chapter in the story of Florida’s historic preservation.

If anyone will be in the Tallahassee area on June 26, the meeting is at 1:00 pm in the R.A. Gray Building, Heritage Hall, 500 S. Bronough St., Tallahassee, FL 32399-0250. Attend if you can and show your support for Florida archaeology. But if you make your comments and send them in your voice will be heard now!

Please share this message with anyone you know who is interested in preserving Florida’s archaeological and historical heritage.

Thank you for your support of good archaeological stewardship,


LAMP

I'll let you guys have a field day with this one...its pretty typical, but its out there, and we won't be the only ones at the meeting.

Jason
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

i hope my small salvage venture has a china mans chance in 09! Ben D.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Its the end of historic shipwreck recovery as we know it. No matter what the salvage community argues, the State has already made up its mind and will not change. I hope they completely shut down treasure hunting in Florida and then see all the cultural heritage disappear in the next few years, only to wind up on the black market. Bureaucrats :tard:have a way of making such huge mistakes.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

once they kill "joe everymans" dream of finding and legally salvaging a treasure wreck --it will spark a backlash they never had nightmares of in their wildest dreams -- it be a total everyone vs them war -- and if there are no permits--- well its "staff and budget cut time" -- since the function is no longer done --the people in that dept-- need to be laid off andits budget money cut out and returned to the state. -- you can not have the money to do the job if your not going to do it anymore simply put -- and you cannot just steal public money and shift it at a whim from place to place if it is not used as it was alloted for -- then it must be returned to state coffers, not just switched around elsewhere on a whim.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage pro

Not the end.The state of florida cant touch a Admiralty 3 miles off the east coast or 9 miles out in the gulf.Still lots of wrecks to be had,This meeting comming up is not the only one they are haveing.There will be alot more from what i hear the next one will be down our way near sebastian.The state of florida just cant change salvage laws without alot of flak from the public.Without treasure salvors the public will never see anything from any wreck ever again.The looters will be the archies that work for that state that is if they still have a job.You can bet that any artifact they bring up you will never see it.Just like all the treasure florida state has now.Where is it all?Time for a freedom of information act to find out where it all is and what is missing or stolen and those held accountable for it before they all get laid off from thier jobs.What i see comming is the domino effect.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I see you guys have plenty of time to type opinions about what the state is up to....how many of you have gone to the website and typed your comments to the people that matter?

Understand that "Rulemaking" is a vehicle used by government agencies to effectively circumvent state legislation. They already have the legislation done, the LAWS are in place....but by changing the RULES instead of the LAWS, they can do it quietly (in as little as 30 days) and without the support of the state legislation. The ONLY recourse you have against this, is the vehicle given to you known as public comment, if you haven't done your part in that arena, then you are just talking to hear yourself talk. Showing up at the meeting will allow you to voice your public comment in person, and is the prefferred method, but for those who can't go, please send them an intelligent and "semi-non-threatening" comment at the link posted above.

Everyone on the shipwreck board (no matter where you live) should have already gone to the website and posted your comments...if you haven't, then you've missed the only opportunity to do something about it (other than to gripe and speculate on TNET).

Here's what I sent them:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs,

I understand the need to protect underwater archaeological sites from looters and even from un-informed amatuer treasure hunters, but I also understand the need to protect these wrecks from the environment they lie in. These wrecks are a non-renewable resource, and the more time they sit on the bottom of the oceans, the less there is available to learn from them. Destroying the wreck sites to get at gold and silver is not acceptable, but neither is leaving them there to rot and further deteriorate in the harsh seas.

The state archaeological team does not have the finances or the resources to properly excavate and conserve even 5% of Florida's nautical history. Moreover, the legislation you have put in place is preventing it from being recovered for study, thus it WILL be lost forever. This is not why you were appointed to your respective positions, and it is the equivelant of archaeological heresy to sit by and watch this history disappear forever.

My only point of contention is that new salvage leases are not being made available to reputable salvors. There are several teams of well-educated, well-funded, well-equipped, and well-intentioned amatuer archaeologists who are willing to do your work on our dime. To let that resource sit idly on the shores of Florida, or force us to hunt for historically insignificant scraps from known wreck sites is a serious error. This error will permanently dispose of much of our nautical history that could be properly excavated, conserved, and studied at no cost to the state.

As a serious historian and shipwreck explorer, it is my sincere hope that the Bureau of Historical Resources will correct the errors of the past, and allow reputable salvors to again recover and preserve our maritime history with the dilligence many of us have shown you in the past. To quote King Phillip II in regards to the government of Spain trying to regulate every detail of colonial shipping, he had this to say; "It was a task to great for a government unassisted by the inducements and initiative of private enterprise". With this statement, he began allowing Castilian merchants to help him transport goods to and from the new world. King Phillip V later made an almost identical statement when he released the grip of the Casa de Contratacion in Seville and opened new world shipping to the well apportioned (and commercially operated) port of Cadiz in 1717. With that one statement, both men greatly expanded Spain's capability for exploiting the new world by allowing private enterprise to help them.

This statement could be used to examine the current state of affairs in Florida also...the task of saving Florida's nautical history is also too great for a government without the help of private enterprise. The private enterprise you currently have available is ethical, historically minded, and the last thing any of us want to do is sub-par archaeology. We are prepared for (and deserving of) the right to explore and preserve our country's nautical heritage. To not allow us that right by way of refusing to issue salvage permits is pure negligence on your part, both as legislators and as historians.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Well said, Jason. Well said indeed.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

well thought out and well spoken
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Dell, many of us "treasure hunters" are indeed organized, which includes almost all of the major players in the professional salvage industry. I happen to be flying over to the meeting with legal counsel, and sitting with several archaeologists in my corner....so say all you want now, but I'm no idiot, and am certainly not naive to the workings of my government.

For the record, did you send anything in for the public comment phase? Are you attending the meeting? Have you conferred with state representatives and legal counsel? I can assure you that I have, and I am not going into this blindly.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

Dell Winders said:
and anxiously await to hear the generosity the State Archaeologist are going to bestow on it's Florida Treasure Hunter citizens.
Click to expand...

Funny Dale! I'm not expecting any generosity from them. And I certainly didn't mean to imply that your opinion didn't matter or shouldn't have been posted. I've just got too much preparation into this meeting to accept "naive" as a good adjective for my approach. ;)

We could easily all sit around and say "it's not going to do any good, so why waste the time". I feel like I'd be wasting my time if I didn't at least try...no matter how futile it may turn out to be. Time will tell I guess.

Jason
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

hell even if the deck is "marked" and stacked against --we gotta play --cuz its the only game in town ,
and if you must go do not go quietly and meekly , into the night , but rail rail against the fading light.
or in plain ole redneckense -- I ain't getting on my knees and begging and I 'm not going down without a fight. -- Ivan
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

The rules will say anything, their application will be anything a whole different matter to see how it plays out. :coffee2:

If you haven't done so you need to read the actual language and submit intelligent comments and questions.

http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

All this actually weighs into things so please speak up and ask questions, your comments do become part of the record. Go to the meeting tomorrow if it's possible for you.
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

oh yah the part I like in the rules change is "permits will not be issued if there are human remains present" --- DUH its a shipwreck-- theres always a chance that human remains will be present * --- talk about your stupid legal "catch 22" phrazes-- uh nope --theres a chance that people died during the shipwreck so "no permit for you" --geez
 

Re: the state of floridas " catch 22" why they HAD to change their salvage process

I'm sure the "humans remains" concern applies to more recent wrecks. It wasn't too long ago that a dive shop arrogantly displayed remains of German soldiers from a uboat. It obviously was uncalled for and demanded a response. They got one. It's a small community and the incident hasn't been forgotten, thus the concerns. I happen to agree with the ruling.
 

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