The Square Round Table

[barnhse]

Hey Barn...From what I could tell on my study of the KGC... Houk, Howk, The Hawk, Lee Haw, Jesse R. James, Jesse Lee James, Jesse James III and the other names that he went by were used on most of these KGC Maps. I researched authors, blogs, downloaded free books or read them on free trials online or audiobooks and also went through the maps online. Howks are pretty easy to identify as I'm sure you know.

Dalton, Houk and Rousch were friends... more so Houk and Rousch due to Dalton dying earlier... which is why he has posted maps. He believes that Dalton was JJ... I don't, but I respect others thoughts as long as thoughts or beliefs are not stated as fact..without proof.

The map that Griffith and Brewer were using on the Gillespie Sisters property that Brewer told you about is a well known area in Oklahoma for Outlaw activity. Some of the maps if you look at them side by side have been added to or parts left out. According to the Gillespie sisters (they've since sold that land) the money was recovered by trespassing without their permission... they had put up trail cams.

There's also more maps out that are linked to other families that claim their ancestor was Jesse or Frank James. I know of one in Missouri besides the obvious one, one in Oklahoma, Pastore's Kansas claim, and one for sure in Texas that is trying to sell a map for One Million $$$ even though he's been proven not to be JWJ and possibly another in Texas. There's two in Arkansas that claim Jesse and Frank James were their ggrandfathers and there's several more I haven't mentioned. No wonder it's hard to weed things out... Tell 10 random people to meet you at Jesse James Grave and see where everyone goes..lol! Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts though.

We can't post links to other discussion groups here but I can post maps if there's more you want to see. You've probably found them though in your research... you can let me know if there's something you want to see and if I have it I'll get it to you.

If you haven't done this go back all the way here in the KGC sub forum and look at those maps and read the discussions. You've probably already done that though.

Kace

Hey Kace,

I'd be interested in any treasure maps in north-east Texas.

Thanks!

 

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[barnhse]

For those interested in my KGC hunt in NE Texas.

This was my week to visit my elderly mother, so only Sunday was left to go to the marsh.

I relocated the rock that I found last weekend, the only rock on the surface in the whole area.
I cleaned off the top, and still did not see any carvings.

So I dug up the rock and cleaned off the bottom.
There were still no carvings.

I placed my cell phone "compass" on it, and the heading looks like this (north on the top):

Very uninteresting, as my search areas are all to the south, and no corner of the rock points that way.

I did look for tree markers in the direction of each of the rock four corners and did not find any markers.
I have never found a tree marker anywhere in the marsh, no carvings on trees or bent trees like the Indians used to make.

I went back to digging another hole, but the tree limbs on the hill slope kept getting in the way with my long pipe extensions on my hand-auger.
Therefore, I will have to dig my "grid" of test holes in the flat area of the marsh, in the sun.
Very uncool in every sense of the word.

If it were easy, the safes would have been found already...that is what I keep telling myself...over and over again.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, I would look to the South-East... (Rock).

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Yes Kace, I meant to say Rulo Nebraska. The marker on the compass point is big, but the writing carved into it is small and you have to look for it. It says L.O.P. with two other letters A.J. below and to the right of that. I don't think they are initials. In the near future I will show more about this marker and its messages to the hunter, but right now is not a good time for us to reveal it or its location.

L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Barn, the fellows you are dealing with were in the inner circle of the K.G.C. and they had big money to play with. The Southern boys made use of trees and rocks in the field but these guys were known to make the trees and rocks and place them in cemeteries and elsewhere. They love to use an enemy or a foe if they could. I believe in your particular case you may have to look for something more extravagant than a rock. It will be handmade by a professional and within 20 miles or so of your site that will give you a proper heading and maybe a distance across the area you are looking at. If it is big, chances are that they probably would not have marked anything in the immediate area of the cache. Just my opinion.

 

[barnhse]

Barn, the fellows you are dealing with were in the inner circle of the K.G.C. and they had big money to play with. The Southern boys made use of trees and rocks in the field but these guys were known to make the trees and rocks and place them in cemeteries and elsewhere. They love to use an enemy or a foe if they could. I believe in your particular case you may have to look for something more extravagant than a rock. It will be handmade by a professional and within 20 miles or so of your site that will give you a proper heading and maybe a distance across the area you are looking at. If it is big, chances are that they probably would not have marked anything in the immediate area of the cache. Just my opinion.

L.C, I hope you are as right as you usually are.

I hope this rock is just a rock, and not a marker.
If it were a marker, then I am way off base.

I made a map, no hills where it "points" to.
You will have to click on the map to see details.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Barn I have been wrong many times on the trails, but I try to learn from every mistake I make and get better at it.

L.C.

 

[Kace]

L.C, I hope you are as right as you usually are.

I hope this rock is just a rock, and not a marker.
If it were a marker, then I am way off base.

I made a map, no hills where it "points" to.
You will have to click on the map to see details.
View attachment 1600853

Barn.. I agree with LC... that rock isn't significant IMO and insignificant like you originally thought.

No matter what someone hid, markers tend to be something they thought would be permanent.

I'm not a big follower of a lot of bent trees either... a few yes and you can tell if they were manipulated.

Acorns for instance, are just like human genes, if they fall from a tall straight tree, unless they suffered an animal bite or were stepped on or something hard injuring them... they will be tall and straight. If they fell from a bent or deformed tree, the trees from those acorns will be bent and deformed.

If there's a cluster of bent trees or any of the same shape that's why. If you see one different in a cluster... maybe look at that, but folks have always known there's a lifespan to trees or weather related danger. Any that were chosen back in the 1800's as landmarks were used for a fairly quick recovery... if whatever was put there wasn't recovered, that tree is gone now. Some say look at the new one planted that looks just like the old one, but some acorns or seeds take 20-50yrs to sprout into a tree.

With Acorns or any seed or spore, gravity, water, birds, squirrels and other animals carry them off, drop some, bury some etc

Cemeteries were always thought to be permanent. Of course now some have been moved for lakes or roads or forgotten... until historical societies became involved in restoring the old overgrown forgotten ones. That could of been what your friend told you about the drums they used to fill with valuables on the Hiway construction.. an old cemetery point of burial like Baker said or fake cemetery.
They wouldn't of called it in which is a law after finding that stuff. How they kept the uninvolved in recovery quiet is a mystery.

Let me know what maps you've got of NE Texas and I'll see if I have different ones... You very well could have all that I do but I'll definitely check for you. If you don't want to post, PM just what you have and from who. You don't have to give details.

Kace

 

[barnhse]

Barn.. I agree with LC... that rock isn't significant IMO and insignificant like you originally thought.

No matter what someone hid, markers tend to be something they thought would be permanent.

I'm not a big follower of a lot of bent trees either... a few yes and you can tell if they were manipulated.

Acorns for instance, are just like human genes, if they fall from a tall straight tree, unless they suffered an animal bite or were stepped on or something hard injuring them... they will be tall and straight. If they fell from a bent or deformed tree, the trees from those acorns will be bent and deformed.

If there's a cluster of bent trees or any of the same shape that's why. If you see one different in a cluster... maybe look at that, but folks have always known there's a lifespan to trees or weather related danger. Any that were chosen back in the 1800's as landmarks were used for a fairly quick recovery... if whatever was put there wasn't recovered, that tree is gone now. Some say look at the new one planted that looks just like the old one, but some acorns or seeds take 20-50yrs to sprout into a tree.

With Acorns or any seed or spore, gravity, water, birds, squirrels and other animals carry them off, drop some, bury some etc

Cemeteries were always thought to be permanent. Of course now some have been moved for lakes or roads or forgotten... until historical societies became involved in restoring the old overgrown forgotten ones. That could of been what your friend told you about the drums they used to fill with valuables on the Hiway construction.. an old cemetery point of burial like Baker said or fake cemetery.
They wouldn't of called it in which is a law after finding that stuff. How they kept the uninvolved in recovery quiet is a mystery.

Let me know what maps you've got of NE Texas and I'll see if I have different ones... You very well could have all that I do but I'll definitely check for you. If you don't want to post, PM just what you have and from who. You don't have to give details.

Kace

Hey Kace,

I don't really need any more maps, what I need is a magnetometer!

The wife said I could not go to New Mexico to search for Fenn's treasure for a Father's Day present.

So I asked her if I could rent a cheap magnetometer for a month at $260 plus shipping
Earth Magnetometer Model EM2
trifield@trifield.com

She asked if it would really find the safes if they were there.

I said, "I don't know".

Hence the jury is still out on that gift suggestion.

Crummy-buttons.

 

[Kace]

Hey Kace,

I don't really need any more maps, what I need is a magnetometer!

The wife said I could not go to New Mexico to search for Fenn's treasure for a Father's Day present.

So I asked her if I could rent a cheap magnetometer for a month at $260 plus shipping
Earth Magnetometer Model EM2
trifield@trifield.com

She asked if it would really find the safes if they were there.

I said, "I don't know".

Hence the jury is still out on that gift suggestion.

Crummy-buttons.

LOL!... I'm sorry you didn't get your first request for a Father's Day present! You're second request is very reasonable though.

Will a Magnometer work you think? Since you've done so much work there, might as well try anything you can.

Or.... Go buy her a really nice piece of jewelry put some dirt on it and tell her you found it while digging! I'm Just Kidding!... but I do have friends that get all sorts of support from formally reluctant spouses after they come home with nice jewelry they've found. HA!

Kace

 

[barnhse]

LOL!... I'm sorry you didn't get your first request for a Father's Day present! You're second request is very reasonable though.

Will a Magnometer work you think? Since you've done so much work there, might as well try anything you can.

Or.... Go buy her a really nice piece of jewelry put some dirt on it and tell her you found it while digging! I'm Just Kidding!... but I do have friends that get all sorts of support from formally reluctant spouses after they come home with nice jewelry they've found. HA!

Kace

Now yer talkin'!

What a great idea! Too funny!

Regarding the magnetometer, all technology I have tried has failed me so far.

But like the ole treasure hunter saying...."Leave no stone unturned".

 

[barnhse]

Hi KGC Enthusiasts,

For the KGC treasure that I am going after,
I am using a story from Jesse James III published in Roush's book containing an accompanying treasure map.

So now that my credibility is shot (ha),
let's pretend for a moment the story is sort of true,
kind of like seeing a movie loosely based on true events. (popcorn time)

As the story goes, the gold was transported in two wagons pulled by 10 oxen each.
And also one more wagon pulled by only 8 oxen.

So, how much gold could these poor beasts have moved?

According to my friend Google, depending on age, sex, and breed, oxen can weigh 1,500 to 3,000 pounds and pull an amount equal to or greater than their own weight.
http://www.lancasterfarming.com/content/tncms/live/#1

Hence, using the minimum number above
(because the wagons, men, hollowed out logs, and other things are on top of the wagons, too):

10 oxen team pulling capacity: 10 oxen times 1,500 pounds is 15,000 pounds of pulling power
So two 10-oxen teams can pull 30,000 pounds in total

8 oxen team pulling capacity: 8 oxen times 1,500 pounds is 12,000 pounds of pulling power

Adding up the pulling power of the three teams of oxen, they could all pull
30,000 lbs + 12,000 lbs = 42,000 lbs (21 tons) total pounds of gold.

So how much would all that gold be worth today if it was all melted down into bullion?

42,000 lbs of gold would be $769,453,912
Your Weight In Gold
(I know, gold coins bring more money, and less pure gold brings less money)
(the story does say about a billion dollars...that is Jesse James III's words, so there is that)

So the 3 safes might contain $256,315,182...er, each(!)

If Jesse James III story is off by a factor of 10, 100, or even 1000, that is STILL enough to dream about a bit.
(just like in the movies).
"The End"

 

[Kace]

Barn... like I’ve said a million times... I don’t believe a Damn Word That Man Ever Said... However.. that’s just my opinion and I REALLY WANT YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG... if I was closer to you, I’d even help for free... meaning I’d bring shovel and auger operators.. and I’d pay them. I’d also bring the RV with AC!

I look at this thread everyday... heck I’m working now and still I check it... There’s always the chance that he overheard something and it’s true. I want YOU to find these safes. Or Oil.

If I thought your wife would listen to me I’d call and ask her to happily let you go back to Sante Fe!

All I can do from here is cheer you on everyday and I do!

As Always...Best Of Luck To You!

Kace

 

[barnhse]

Barn... like I’ve said a million times... I don’t believe a Damn Word That Man Ever Said... However.. that’s just my opinion and I REALLY WANT YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG... if I was closer to you, I’d even help for free... meaning I’d bring shovel and auger operators.. and I’d pay them. I’d also bring the RV with AC!

I look at this thread everyday... heck I’m working now and still I check it... There’s always the chance that he overheard something and it’s true. I want YOU to find these safes. Or Oil.

If I thought your wife would listen to me I’d call and ask her to happily let you go back to Sante Fe!

All I can do from here is cheer you on everyday and I do!

As Always...Best Of Luck To You!

Kace

Thank you so much for your very kind words, Kace.
Kind words are rare on some forums, that is for sure!

“You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
― Paulo Coelho

BTW, I have started some research and sent off some notes to historical folks in Texas on cemeteries that are:
1) still around today
2) that also existed in 1872
3) nearish the dig site

I think there are one or two of those within 20 miles of the dig site and hope to visit them this weekend after my digging.

 

[Kace]

Thank you so much for your very kind words, Kace.
Kind words are rare on some forums, that is for sure!

“You can either be a victim of the world or an adventurer in search of treasure. It all depends on how you view your life.”
― Paulo Coelho

BTW, I have started some research and sent off some notes to historical folks in Texas on cemeteries that are:
1) still around today
2) that also existed in 1872
3) nearish the dig site

I think there are one or two of those within 20 miles of the dig site and hope to visit them this weekend after my digging.

I think that’s a Great Idea to visit those cemeteries !! Make sure and take plenty of photos!

If you have a few minutes on your google earth, see if you can find any family plots or graves... they might have some LIDAR shots where you could tell if there’s been anything buried on some land close to you. It doesn’t mean it’s always a real grave... you’ll have to research whatever name is on the stone if there is any and also research who’s owned the land.
Ya don’t wanna dig into a real grave! eek!
Kace

 

[barnhse]

Well, we can always argue about whether or not there is (or ever was) KGC treasure...
but...

“In the end, one detail is unarguable:
There will always be those searching for treasure.
Never forget: We are a country founded on legends and myths.
We love them, especially legends of treasure.”
― Brad Meltzer

If I don't find the KGC treasure out in the marsh...well..I have been disappointed before and carried on.
If I do find it....well...not sure what I'd do with it (other than quit my job)...I can only imagine all the ways how I'd give most all the rest away.
And perhaps make a movie...loosely based on true events

to all you treasure hunter folks in this forum!

 

[Kace]

Well, we can always argue about whether or not there is (or ever was) KGC treasure...
but...

“In the end, one detail is unarguable:
There will always be those searching for treasure.
Never forget: We are a country founded on legends and myths.
We love them, especially legends of treasure.”
― Brad Meltzer

If I don't find the KGC treasure out in the marsh...well..I have been disappointed before and carried on.
If I do find it....well...not sure what I'd do with it (other than quit my job)...I can only imagine all the ways how I'd give most all the rest away.
And perhaps make a movie...loosely based on true events

to all you treasure hunter folks in this forum!

You would Never get an argument from me that there's lots of buried treasure in the US. I Am A Believer.

The only debate anyone ever gets from me is regarding the sources that originally told the stories of massive vaults of treasure and the ones who repeat that same stuff in a factual manner as authorities on the subjects when they've never found anything and turn to writing books, lecturing or TV shows talking about something that in reality they know nothing about to make money off of others dreams. I don't like that as everyone knows.

Just recently I was approached to be an investor in a treasure recovery that at first was presented to me as the location was known without a doubt...they just didn't have the resources to get it out... as the talks unfolded this turned out to be someone's thoughts only.... maybe they are right.. maybe not. I did some research into it since I wasn't that familiar with this one and decided it wasn't for me due to it being so popular in that treasure hunting community for over a century and hundreds if not thousands of 'thoughts of locations'. If it's real, I hope someone deserving recovers it... but it's just another example of when no recovery of a treasure happens, people get desperate to try and get money anyway they can..this guys written a book that hasn't sold well and needs funds... as have others peddling their thoughts.

What I would appreciate in authors, lecturers or TV reality treasure hunting personalities is telling the whole truth, not just riding the coat tails of unproven legends and stating it as factual... In other words, do some stuff like you are doing now and have done in the past. That's Real Life... treasure hunters don't always recover tangible items, but you've done a lot of research and boots on the ground..that's what it's about. I believe you eventually will find a valuable, tangible treasure. Whether or not it's KGC... Or Jesse James touched it...Does it Really Matter? It doesn't to me.

What I like about your approach is that you are unassuming, you've done independent research and do not seem to be relying on any one opinion but are gathering different outlooks and combining those with your own thoughts and beliefs without stating anything as fact... you seem to be of the belief that the map you are working on for instance could be off somewhat if it's true and are covering all bases the best you can. To me that's what treasure hunting is about.

I think we could all agree if treasure hunting authors, lecturers or TV shows put KGC/Knights of the Golden Circle and Jesse James in their titles, it sells better than if they weren't included.

Did you or anyone here see the Pastore show done in Kansas? If so, what are everyone's thoughts on that? I'm not even including the Jere Miah James part in that question.

I really do admire your approach to treasure hunting Barn, you didn't lose credibility with me by admitting you started following a story and map by Rousch and Houk... because you took it farther than just that, so far you are the first to actually admit what led you to follow this trail that I've seen, although by what others have written they've done it too... your figures on the oxen, wagons and hollowed out logs and weight are or were on this very site although the events occurred in another state by another believer in Houk, Schrader and Rousch. The difference is your research in other avenues and knowing this might be not be true as much as it might be true and being open to others experiences and taking it all in. Nobody can ever say you didn't do enough or that you just missed it. That's something to be proud of I think.

Still Rooting For You and what you said you would do with the treasure if you found it is exactly what I envisioned you would do!

Kace

 

[barnhse]

Hi All,

I took Kace's and L.C.'s advice and did my research on the graveyards near my dig site.
Between my friend Google and one of the local historical society nice ladies, I located the three closest ones that would have Civil War graves and went to all of them.

What was really cool is that when I went to the last one on my list, there was some guy putting rebel flags on the Confederate graves.
When I went up to him to introduce myself, he thought he was in trouble...too funny.

I told him he was not in any trouble and just wondered what he was doing.
It was just some great-grandson of one of the soldiers and not a caretaker.

He was not only putting up little Confederate flags, he was applying something called D2 on the headstones to restore them to their original color (white).
He explained that he was just visiting his great-grandfather's grave and wanted to do something nice.

Their family lived in Mississippi during the war.
His great-grandfather was only 16 years old when he was in the Confederate army.
His great-grandfather was wounded and was recovering at his mother's place in Mississippi when some Union soldiers came and stole 5 of her best horses.
Although recovering, and only 16, he tracked down the Union soldiers, shot and killed them all (I don't know how many there were), and returned the horses to his mother.

His name was John Robert Irwin in the pictures below.

Anyway, The man I was talking to in the cemetery said that most male graves who were born in the 1840s probably were in the war.
He also told me how to spot from a distance the gravestones that the State of Texas put up for them.
They would all have a point at the top and be thick and would all have the Confederate Cross with a wreath in at the top.
He said that there were also Union soldiers in the cemeteries who had moved to Texas after the war.

Here are some pictures that I took there.


This guy said that his whole family moved in a wagon train from Mississippi to Waco Texas in 1880.
The reason was that the Union soldiers were hunting men who served in the Confederacy after the war and whole families had to move from Mississippi and Louisiana to Texas for safety reasons.

I thought it was such a great coincidence that I met him out there in one of the cemeteries.

Anyway, after searching all three cemeteries, I didn't find any graves that were around 1872-ish.
The oldest one I found was in 1879.

 

[Kace]

Hi All,

I took Kace's and L.C.'s advice and did my research on the graveyards near my dig site.
Between my friend Google and one of the local historical society nice ladies, I located the three closest ones that would have Civil War graves and went to all of them.

What was really cool is that when I went to the last one on my list, there was some guy putting rebel flags on the Confederate graves.
When I went up to him to introduce myself, he thought he was in trouble...too funny.

I told him he was not in any trouble and just wondered what he was doing.
It was just some great-grandson of one of the soldiers and not a caretaker.

He was not only putting up little Confederate flags, he was applying something called D2 on the headstones to restore them to their original color (white).
He explained that he was just visiting his great-grandfather's grave and wanted to do something nice.

Their family lived in Mississippi during the war.
His great-grandfather was only 16 years old when he was in the Confederate army.
His great-grandfather was wounded and was recovering at his mother's place in Mississippi when some Union soldiers came and stole 5 of her best horses.
Although recovering, and only 16, he tracked down the Union soldiers, shot and killed them all (I don't know how many there were), and returned the horses to his mother.

His name was John Robert Irwin in the pictures below.

Anyway, The man I was talking to in the cemetery said that most male graves who were born in the 1840s probably were in the war.
He also told me how to spot from a distance the gravestones that the State of Texas put up for them.
They would all have a point at the top and be thick and would all have the Confederate Cross with a wreath in at the top.
He said that there were also Union soldiers in the cemeteries who had moved to Texas after the war.

Here are some pictures that I took there.
View attachment 1602866 View attachment 1602867 View attachment 1602870 View attachment 1602871

This guy said that his whole family moved in a wagon train from Mississippi to Waco Texas in 1880.
The reason was that the Union soldiers were hunting men who served in the Confederacy after the war and whole families had to move from Mississippi and Louisiana to Texas for safety reasons.

I thought it was such a great coincidence that I met him out there in one of the cemeteries.

Anyway, after searching all three cemeteries, I didn't find any graves that were around 1872-ish.
The oldest one I found was in 1879.

That's way cool Barn... Great Stories from that man! Thanks for sharing and the photos!

I was wondering what 1872-ish that you mentioned had to do with looking through cemeteries or for people? Is that the date on that map or from the story?

Did you get your second request for a Fathers Day Present?

Kace

 

[barnhse]

That's way cool Barn... Great Stories from that man! Thanks for sharing and the photos!

I was wondering what 1872-ish that you mentioned had to do with looking through cemeteries or for people? Is that the date on that map or from the story?

Did you get your second request for a Fathers Day Present?

Kace

Hey Kace and Folks,

According to the story, the wagons with the gold were inspected in Texas twice en route (once by "carpetbaggers" and once again by a Union Army Patrol), so had to be after 1865.
Then the Corps of Engineers blew up Port Jefferson in 1873, so they had to move it before then.
So my time frame is 1865-1873.

If they were to mark a grave, I would think the death date would be around the time they moved it.
Of course, that may be a really bad assumption, and that was just my initial thought.

Actually, I am not really sure what to look for if I found a suspicious grave.
The headstones put up by private individuals (not the ones provided by the State of Texas) are really hard to read at all.
I would not know what to say if I asked to have the grave exhumed....yikes!

Surprisingly, my wife did agree (on Father's Day) to me renting the Earth Magnetometer Model EM2!
I have already called the company and with luck, I will have it by this weekend.
If not, it is a 30-day rental.

I expect to have to mess with the magnetometer a lot, so I have put in for a vacation week the first full week in July to traipse all over my target areas. At least during the morning times, as it gets a bit too warm from noon onwards during July and August.

My wife was very nice to me on Father's Day, she even let me talk a little about my treasure hunting.
She earned a lot of brownie points with me from that...hooray!

Both my wife and I don't think the magnetometer will work and find the safes.
All technology and industrial gadgets have failed me to date.
But it is something I haven't tried yet...so hope lives on.

My digging over the weekend was awfully confusing.
I will have to make more of my crude drawings to explain my confusion.
I hope everyone here can offer possible reasons for what I found.

"If confusion leads to knowledge, then I must be a genius."
- Larry Leissner