The real truth about the man made drought in California
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Mad Machinist
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Actually ponderosa pine and a few others have a very thick bark that withstands light to moderate fires very well. And there are several species that actually need fire to open the cones to spread the seed.
I'm all for restoring natural processes. Just not right now until we intervene and clean up the mess the eco's have made. If we allow fire back in right now, believe me, there will be nothing left to save.
allenkeeton
Full Member
I think you can write about right wing nuts if you are describing the location of wing nuts on an object. heh. but I kid...
In all seriousness though I can see where mad machinist is coming from on some of his points. In a sense, humans have created an environmental disaster on a large scale in Ca. with absolutely no plan B. It isn't the first time either this sort of thing has happened. Yet while the world is crumbling around them, they are busy sweating the small stuff.
the one important thing we must all remember is we are all different people with different ideas and different solutions. But if we lose our civility we each other, we come across as ignorant fools.
kayakpat
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yes I agree this great country has many problems that need to be dealt with , not by idealogy but by what the best information and observations can tell us. One thing I see is people blame groups for certain enviorment disasters, then in the second breath they say some enviorment disasters are natural or too big for man to affect it. I think idealogys should be thrown out, survival needs the best and brightest and facts, observations and the best science can get us. Nothing is perfect, instead of blame, we need the best solutions, In the end there are just too many people wanting more water for their wants and needs that the desert area and inferstructure can provide, especially during a drought no use arguing Moe gets more water than Curley or Joe, they all think they deserve more
Now we have farmers stealing water from each other.
Illegal diversions on the delta, have reached such s point that the government now has to monitor it from the air.
The problem with creating more above ground storage is that in the wet years deliveries are increased and the water isn't banked. It's all about the money.
Agriculture in California has way too much clout. Once again it's about the money. The video that started this thread is a slick very well done infomercial.
I like the term " legislation through litigation." It's so true.
Those with the deepest pockets can afford to tie things up in court. And in most cases the government is using taxpayers money to fight the taxpayers.
It's WE THE PEOPLE. Not we the lawyers.
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Illegal diversions on the delta, have reached such s point that the government now has to monitor it from the air.
The problem with creating more above ground storage is that in the wet years deliveries are increased and the water isn't banked. It's all about the money.
Agriculture in California has way too much clout. Once again it's about the money. The video that started this thread is a slick very well done infomercial.
I like the term " legislation through litigation." It's so true.
Those with the deepest pockets can afford to tie things up in court. And in most cases the government is using taxpayers money to fight the taxpayers.
It's WE THE PEOPLE. Not we the lawyers.
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I'm not anti agriculture but their contribution to this state is greatly over exaggerated. The day of family farms is over. The giant corporate farms don't give one iota about this state. They are in it for the money. The water projects were built in the tax payers dime. They get water at a fraction of the cost it costs to ship it to them.
The westlands water district was
Banking water in aquifers then selling it back to the taxpayers at triple the price
And I respectfully disagree that environmental contribute nothing.
Sport fishing is big business. Recreational use of the streams and rivers is big business. There is quite a high tax rate on sporting gear and some large stores that
Create jobs because of it.
How about the people who live along these water ways? They have no rights?
I lean toward the middle on this issue. I would like to see compromise instead of " I'll get mine before you gets yours."
There are solutions to this problem.
But big money AG and yes Big Money environmentalists are the problem. They would rather cast blame then reach a consensus.
.
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The westlands water district was
Banking water in aquifers then selling it back to the taxpayers at triple the price
And I respectfully disagree that environmental contribute nothing.
Sport fishing is big business. Recreational use of the streams and rivers is big business. There is quite a high tax rate on sporting gear and some large stores that
Create jobs because of it.
How about the people who live along these water ways? They have no rights?
I lean toward the middle on this issue. I would like to see compromise instead of " I'll get mine before you gets yours."
There are solutions to this problem.
But big money AG and yes Big Money environmentalists are the problem. They would rather cast blame then reach a consensus.
.
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Mad Machinist
Silver Member
Get rid of Idealogy? Fine, you first.
Best science available? Fine. That also means throwing out what DOES NOT make sense. The Endangered Species Act has an abysmal 1.5% success rate. many of us want to change it to make it more effective. You would think that the eco groups would agree, yet they fight any changes tooth and nail.
Flushing the amount of water down the drain to "save" a species that cannot be saved is ludicrous. It is just a money game run by a group of second rate "scientists" whose only real qualification is asking if you would like fries with that. I've dealt with more than a few of them.
Case in point: We had one here who claimed that a water tank caused all the trees in an area to split from extreme cold. He COMPLETELY ignored all the natural conditions that could have caused it. He COMPLETELY ignored a draw coming straight down of a 10,000 foot mountain that funneled cold air straight from the mountain top right on the plain. Ever hear of a temperature inversion? Yea I forgot he graduated with a 2.0 GPA.
Ideology? Here's some more:
Chilton Ranch Lawsuit
To file an appeal arguing the right to lie, defame, misrepresent the facts, and practice a blatant disregard for the truth as long as goes along with what they want.
Some big names that filed that appeal. Starting to understand why I have no respect for and an extreme dislike for the eco's.
The center for bio diversity is an over the top group, I agree. I'm used to fight fire for the forest service in the late eighties. I witnessed biologists trap a bald eagle with a snare attached to a floating log. After they dunked this bird and measured this bird
he moved on. Their answer was to close the road.
They weren't willing to accept responsibility that makes be just maybe their actions caused him to move on.
And we are back to the blame game. Seems to be an endless cycle.
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he moved on. Their answer was to close the road.
They weren't willing to accept responsibility that makes be just maybe their actions caused him to move on.
And we are back to the blame game. Seems to be an endless cycle.
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Mad Machinist
Silver Member
Actually using the "blame game" as an answer is a cop out. This has become problem endemic to our society s a whole. Finding "blame" is actually part of the scientific process of solving problem.
Solving problems with the Scientific Method
Read through it and you'll understand.
Solving problems with the Scientific Method
Read through it and you'll understand.
2cmorau
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JONATHAN WOOD: In California, delta smelt gets water that should have been saved - Washington Times#!
nobody ta;lks about the largest crop grapes, they be suckin up water from the river big time
yep, just a few years ago some environmental grup was suin a whiner, claim was fish was floppin on the river cuz it was sucked dry
70s face a drought, all kind of things were proposed for storage, but who shot it down
mother nature works in cycles, any body with a 3 grade education knows that and anybody with a checking account knows ya need a savings account of at least 6 moths or more in the event of an emergency
well wee have been in an emergency for the last four years
but gov/enviros are opposed to any water storage have no problem closein off that land for windmills and solar plants removin the dams
sea water that can be filter much cheaper.heck sirra fund wants to use a dredge to gain more water storage on the Combie
pipes been veto for transfer
too many people ya say, got a solution for that too 30 percent of the population don't belong here
nobody ta;lks about the largest crop grapes, they be suckin up water from the river big time
yep, just a few years ago some environmental grup was suin a whiner, claim was fish was floppin on the river cuz it was sucked dry
70s face a drought, all kind of things were proposed for storage, but who shot it down
mother nature works in cycles, any body with a 3 grade education knows that and anybody with a checking account knows ya need a savings account of at least 6 moths or more in the event of an emergency
well wee have been in an emergency for the last four years
but gov/enviros are opposed to any water storage have no problem closein off that land for windmills and solar plants removin the dams
sea water that can be filter much cheaper.heck sirra fund wants to use a dredge to gain more water storage on the Combie
pipes been veto for transfer
too many people ya say, got a solution for that too 30 percent of the population don't belong here
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Oakview2
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It?s time for an honest discussion about water | The Sacramento Bee The Sacramento Bee+
Suprised McClatchy printed this.
Suprised McClatchy printed this.
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Oakview2
Silver Member
The first link is an editorial. Written by the president of the Modesto farm bureau. Not much science there.
The 500,000 plus people who depend on the SF Delta for their drinking water don't see the water allowed to reach them as wasted.
Yes farmers raise food crops and people need food. But let's look at which crops they are growing. Almonds, walnuts, wine grapes. Those are crops we could live just fine without.
More storage? For crying out loud. They can't even agree to raise Shasta dam an existing structure 12 feet.
We can't even fill the reservoirs that exist now.
Solutions, I'll give some.
Recycled waste water into potable water. The process to treat waste water, leaves us with a source that is much cleaner than the raw water sources we use now. Most waste water plants outfalls are located near water treatment plants intake. Then the water treatment will re treat this source again. Science once again.
Science says the current systems of canals are leaking water the whole length of the canals. And a good portion of that water evaporates before where it reaches its destination. Pipe the canals.
Lawns and non native plants do nothing except. It's all for aesthetics. Science says the fertilizers and pesticides used in lawns are feeding invasive plants. Fueling massive algae blooms. And contributing to the deterioration of the delta.
The jet propulsion laboratory( more science) points to over drawing of California's aquifers. The land is sinking. It's called subsidence. Another scientific word. And the main culprit is agriculture. Roads and the canals AG loves so much are breaking. Once an aquifer is collapsed there is no bringing it back.
Solution and some water districts already practice this. High pressure pumps are used to inject water into the aquifer basically recharging it. Under ground water is banked where it doesn't evaporate. More science.
As for environmental groups. The bureau at one time wanted to dam up the Grand Canyon. Look it up. I Am grateful to those groups for stopping that madness. The groups along with delta farmers and urban users stopped the peripheral canal. What an Un Holy Alliance. I'm grateful for that. Now they try an end around with the twin pipe idea.
Science says, this drought is caused by a lack of rain and snow pack in the Sierras.
Science says the water quality in the delta is getting worse and the once great sacramento salmon runs are endangered. But they are only fish. So what if your grand children never see a wild salmon or fish on the river.
Fact is, water use habits in California must change and sooner than later.
It will rain and snow again, this is cyclic. But instead of waiting for a dire emergency it makes a lot more sense to plan for droughts in the wet years.
There's my morning rant.
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The 500,000 plus people who depend on the SF Delta for their drinking water don't see the water allowed to reach them as wasted.
Yes farmers raise food crops and people need food. But let's look at which crops they are growing. Almonds, walnuts, wine grapes. Those are crops we could live just fine without.
More storage? For crying out loud. They can't even agree to raise Shasta dam an existing structure 12 feet.
We can't even fill the reservoirs that exist now.
Solutions, I'll give some.
Recycled waste water into potable water. The process to treat waste water, leaves us with a source that is much cleaner than the raw water sources we use now. Most waste water plants outfalls are located near water treatment plants intake. Then the water treatment will re treat this source again. Science once again.
Science says the current systems of canals are leaking water the whole length of the canals. And a good portion of that water evaporates before where it reaches its destination. Pipe the canals.
Lawns and non native plants do nothing except. It's all for aesthetics. Science says the fertilizers and pesticides used in lawns are feeding invasive plants. Fueling massive algae blooms. And contributing to the deterioration of the delta.
The jet propulsion laboratory( more science) points to over drawing of California's aquifers. The land is sinking. It's called subsidence. Another scientific word. And the main culprit is agriculture. Roads and the canals AG loves so much are breaking. Once an aquifer is collapsed there is no bringing it back.
Solution and some water districts already practice this. High pressure pumps are used to inject water into the aquifer basically recharging it. Under ground water is banked where it doesn't evaporate. More science.
As for environmental groups. The bureau at one time wanted to dam up the Grand Canyon. Look it up. I Am grateful to those groups for stopping that madness. The groups along with delta farmers and urban users stopped the peripheral canal. What an Un Holy Alliance. I'm grateful for that. Now they try an end around with the twin pipe idea.
Science says, this drought is caused by a lack of rain and snow pack in the Sierras.
Science says the water quality in the delta is getting worse and the once great sacramento salmon runs are endangered. But they are only fish. So what if your grand children never see a wild salmon or fish on the river.
Fact is, water use habits in California must change and sooner than later.
It will rain and snow again, this is cyclic. But instead of waiting for a dire emergency it makes a lot more sense to plan for droughts in the wet years.
There's my morning rant.
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Mad Machinist
Silver Member
Don't even start with "it's for the children".
This big old ball of dirt we live on has killed off somewhere between 96-98% of all species long before we got here. Last I checked salmon have been around for some 300 million years. I'm sure they've seen few things in their day.
I'll agree with you on the water use practices. They do need to change.
So here's an idea.
Instead of building the high speed train, how about fixing your canals. How about giving Mother Nature a boost and call upon the dredgers to start removing sediment from the reservoir and deposit it on the low lying delta islands? Throw in some excavating companies since the reservoirs there are at historic low levels.
Think about the implications here and get back to me. And think about all the ways this could be stopped through litigation.
This big old ball of dirt we live on has killed off somewhere between 96-98% of all species long before we got here. Last I checked salmon have been around for some 300 million years. I'm sure they've seen few things in their day.
I'll agree with you on the water use practices. They do need to change.
So here's an idea.
Instead of building the high speed train, how about fixing your canals. How about giving Mother Nature a boost and call upon the dredgers to start removing sediment from the reservoir and deposit it on the low lying delta islands? Throw in some excavating companies since the reservoirs there are at historic low levels.
Think about the implications here and get back to me. And think about all the ways this could be stopped through litigation.
fowledup
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Awful lot of common sense thinking going on in here, ya all are straying from your sheeple training and that's bound to scare them folks!
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Let's keep politics out please..
kayakpat
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it is no group in itself responsible or simple fix, it is too many people with too many self interest wanting a limited resource in a desert climate during a major drought to use that. some just wanting to use the situation so they can attack their favorite boogyman will not solve anything
Mad Machinist
Silver Member
No group responsible? Don't think much for yourself do ya?
Ok RANT ON............
You want to come here and claim no group is responsible? California knew this was going to be a problem a long time ago. They even spent money to study the problem. The solution? Either dredge the reservoirs of build them higher. All of this requires Environmental Impact Statements. Which means it can be tied up for years in court by the eco's for a whole myriad of reasons.
So what is the solution to the lawsuit problem? Lets throw $60 billion dollars down the toilet to build a high speed rail to nowhere so we can appease a group of eco's who believe in a nonexistent problem.
Hey we have a water system that is falling apart, but we need a high speed rail more to lead the fight against plant food.
We need millions and millions of dollars to protect the delta island from flooding because the levees are falling apart. Let's not fix those, let's waste a bunch of money fighting people to take away their property to build something that the next earthquake is probably going to knock down.
Who needs food anyway?
Ya know this isn't real hard. Bring in the bucket ladder dredges, dig the stuff up out of the reservoirs and dump the stuff behind the levees on the delta islands to build them back up. It's basically the same thing Mother nature would do, only a whole lot faster.
There I go thinking again. Just think, all that nutrient rich sediment being deposited on farmland. Wonder how much fertilizer that would eliminate? We cant have that now can we? Then certain groups wouldn't have anything to cry about.
And if the bucket ladders wouldn't work, modify a couple of continuous miners to remove the sediment. Hell we could even call up Keene to build a bunch of giant wash plants to recover the gold to help pay for it. And as a bonus, we could also recover 98-99% of the mercury that everyone cries about.
Just think of all the people we could put back to work.
Me so smart, mebbe I shuld be prezident.
RANT OFF.
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Oakview2
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Politicians are responsible plain and simple. The lack of rain just exposed their lack of forethought. The CVP system was designed to move water throughout the state becuase of historical drought. We have not used the system because our leadership has determined that the greens know best, and they derive a bunch of monetary capital from these groups. We have flushed trillions of gallons of water to restore cold water fisheries with no fish, and a smelt that is non native to this state that is being eaten by other non native species, largemouth bass and striped bass, that were planted their by the same knuckleheads that came up with this biological opinion. Throw in the amount of very lightly treated sewage that Sacramento and Stockton and other bedroom communites are flushing into the delta and the waterway is doomed. I wouldn't drink anything from that waterway, PERIOD. Their is a reason San Frans Hetchy Hetcy water is piped around the Delta....Recongnize the past, or doom the future.
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