The Peralta Stones

[Jim Hatt]

I don't know how realistic it is, but is there a possibility that despite all the cleaning that the stones have likely undertaken that there may be microscopic "contaminants" from whatever implement was used to cut the many lines?
.....

I wonder about what effect the releasing agent and latex, each applied numerous times as I understand from Jim's description above, may have had with whatever residues may have been in the grooves?

Good morning Springfield.

The releasing agent I spoke of was probably not necessary, when the initial molds were made using the original stones. I had to use it when I made my molds because the stones (a set of Richard Robinson's reproductions) I used to make my molds were painted. (That btw, is the reason I called my reproductions "second generation copies". (like a copy of a zerox copy) If I had not used the releasing agent on my stones, it may have removed all the paint (applied by Robinson) when the latex was removed from the stones. That releasing agent was only applied once (before the first coat of latex was applied).

Irregardless of all that... The chemical testing I have in mind, should not be affected by any residual releasing agent, that may have been used (if applicable) on the original stones when Robinson made the first generation copies. The testing I have in mind will be of a material below the surface of the stone being tested. I did not intend for this testing to be a mystery, or puzzle to confuse anybody, when I brought it up. The fact is... I do not know how to perform the proposed chemical test myself, so I cannot explain it to anyone. However I have a lot of faith that a Chemist will be able to do it, if permission is granted by the Mineral and Mining Museum, and the funds are raised, to have the test performed. That permission is required because, more than likely, there will be some surface disturbance required to obtain samples of the material to be tested. This could be considered as a form of destructive analysis, which could result in a permanent scar on the surface being tested.

As I told Joe. The whole story should be made public before too long, but I will leave that up to the timing and discretion of the Board of Directors at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. I am not going to try to predict what they, or the Mineral & Mining Museum might decide to do, or their reasoning behind that decision. I am sure that whatever they decide to do, they will let me know, and have no problem with me passing that information on to anyone interested.


In the mean time... I have a good deal of confidence that the test will eventually be performed. The SMHS Board Member that I spoke with about it, appeared to be heavily in favor of having the test done, and already had another Board Member in mind to set it up and oversee it.
All we can do right now is keep our fingers crossed.

Jim

 

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[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I assume that site is where I "lifted" the picture. Been so long ago, I don't have any memory of doing it.

That being said, it's not in the article.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

As I understood it, the maps are on loan to the SMHS for display. I should think they would need permission from the owners to do any kind of testing. My guess is that the agreement signed would spell out, explicitly, what can and cannot be done with the stones. That should be easy enough to determine.

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,

As I understood it, the maps are on loan to the SMHS for display. I should think they would need permission from the owners to do any kind of testing. My guess is that the agreement signed would spell out, explicitly, what can and cannot be done with the stones. That should be easy enough to determine.

Joe

You could be right Joe. I should have thought of that. (Rolling eyes)

 

[BILL96]

Jim,
This conversation sure does move quickly, very interesting. I just wanted to comment, I have been a mold maker for 20years and mold making rubber has come a long way. New Silicone rubbers can pick up fingerprints, they are very good. It would be possible to make very good reproductions of those stones in just a couple of days and the only reason you would need to use any kind of a release would be to keep from "staining" the bare stone.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Jim Hatt]

Thanks for update on silicone rubbers Bill. The only thing could find back in 2002 when I was making my molds was the liquid latex.
I hated the idea that it took so long to completely dry before another coat could be applied, but the instructions said do not apply another coat for at least 24 hours so I complied.

If I ever attempt to do it again, I will certainly look into the silicone rubber.

Also, I did not know at the time that the latex rubber molds were going to start to disintegrate over time. A couple of them were still in usable condition when I packed them away, but after sitting for a couple of years, I looked at them again and found them to be not only degrading, but brittle and had no more flexibility, like they had when they were new.

What do you know about plaster of paris Bill? I found that stuff to be the hardest thing to work with. I carefully measured the plaster and water, but every batch seemed to come out different. Like I said... I threw away a lot more pieces than I was able to keep. Tripled my cost of materials for making a set of maps. Of course... I didn't have a teacher. I was learning everything by the trial and error method.

Is there anything better/easier to work with these days? I still get calls from people wanting a set of maps now and then, but I haven't made any more because of all the time and hassle involved with making them.



Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

We had a place out at Vallecito Lake for a number of years. It's still there, just above Vallecito Resort. Beautiful country, despite the fires that went through there. Burned down our Restaurant, but the house survived.

Take care,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

Joe,
I live a few miles down the road from Vallecito in fact I was just up their last week. The place will never be the same in my life time or my children's. It's still beautiful country but the fire was a real nightmare that changed the landscape for generations.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Once you pass Vallecito Resort, you come to what was called "Dead Man's Curve". There is a dirt road that turns right while you are in that curve. You can see a house sitting on the right side of the Hwy. That was our place.

Take care,

Joe

 

[starman 1]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the welcome.

It seems the stone maps lead to both somewhere and nowhere at the same time.

Is this because several maps are still on the loose?

Could it be the latin heart and the heart insert were designed not to be interchangable but were the key to two seperate set of maps?

Perhaps the connection between the two set of maps is N8P. On one set of maps it simply means a directional indicator to buried maps while on the other maps it is the key to a star chart?

One set of maps to look into the sky. The other set to look on the earth.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello Starman 1, My original thoughts were that the horse represented Pegasus. I figured the 10 below 1847 represented October, a month when Pegasus is clearly seen. When the star Enif which is the nose or muzzle of the horse, touched the horizon, he would be grazing north of the river. At that point you could align the heart of the horse somehow, but from where I couldn't figure out. Now I am seeing things from an other angle. Homar

 

[starman 1]

Hello Homar,

The stone maps will lead you to 3 different locations in the Superstition Mountains.

All valid destinations. They were designed that way.

The second set of maps will let you know you are at the right location, little boulder canyon, and with the help of the stars take you to the end point.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello Homar,

The stone maps will lead you to 3 different locations in the Superstition Mountains.

All valid destinations. They were designed that way.

The second set of maps will let you know you are at the right location, little boulder canyon, and with the help of the stars take you to the end point.

Hello Starman 1, I sure hope the stars are willing to help you, but in my opinion the maps were meant to be used in daylight. Tell you what, I'll race you to the finish! Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Cubfan64]

Hello Homar,

The stone maps will lead you to 3 different locations in the Superstition Mountains.

All valid destinations. They were designed that way.

The second set of maps will let you know you are at the right location, little boulder canyon, and with the help of the stars take you to the end point.

Welcome starman - care to elaborate on your theory?

 

[somehiker]

Hello Homar,

The stone maps will lead you to 3 different locations in the Superstition Mountains.

All valid destinations. They were designed that way.

The second set of maps will let you know you are at the right location, little boulder canyon, and with the help of the stars take you to the end point.

Hello Starman 1:
The theory that the Stone Maps are "star maps" has been promoted for some time by one person on another website.He has attempted to connect some lead castings found in a dump area of Tucson to the Superstitions,the Stone Maps,to Sedona......and a mysterious "Beyond".He often speaks of a "lost ship' in the mountains and other maps in a restaurant in Reno.Circlestone,Malapais and Coronado Mesa are often linked to a mythical hidden library of ancient knowledge,in the mountains ,as well as a "depository" of valuable relics, watched over by "descendants" of a lost roman colony of explorers.
If you search the name "Klondike/LDM" you will probably be able to find some of his vague and cryptic postings on the subject.Perhaps you can compare findings with him.


Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Jim Hatt wrote

Unfortunately, although the chemical test being considered, presents the possibility of proving the maps to be 100 or years old, or more, at the time Tumlinson found them. The only other conclusion that could be reached by this chemical test, would be inconclusive, due to lack of material to be tested, or the possibility of material introduced by man since they were found. I see no way for this test to prove they are modern creations, so don't get your hopes too high. Worst case is that we would learn nothing from the testing.

If I understand your statement correctly, this test can either prove the engravings are over 100 years old, or any other result is inconclusive? What use is a test like that? It sounds like any result you might get, would be questionable. Seems like a good argument to go back to the lettering style, wording, etc and try to find matching examples from known engravings. At least this method (epigraphy) is totally non-destructive, for if the stones are genuine then they are also historic artifacts and should not be damaged simply to prove a point.

The star connection is interesting, and considering the Jesuit penchant for using stars for navigation it is a logical idea. The horse as Pegasus, also interesting but why no wings? Too obvious?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Jim Hatt wrote

Unfortunately, although the chemical test being considered, presents the possibility of proving the maps to be 100 or years old, or more, at the time Tumlinson found them. The only other conclusion that could be reached by this chemical test, would be inconclusive, due to lack of material to be tested, or the possibility of material introduced by man since they were found. I see no way for this test to prove they are modern creations, so don't get your hopes too high. Worst case is that we would learn nothing from the testing.

If I understand your statement correctly, this test can either prove the engravings are over 100 years old, or any other result is inconclusive? What use is a test like that? It sounds like any result you might get, would be questionable. Seems like a good argument to go back to the lettering style, wording, etc and try to find matching examples from known engravings. At least this method (epigraphy) is totally non-destructive, for if the stones are genuine then they are also historic artifacts and should not be damaged simply to prove a point.

The star connection is interesting, and considering the Jesuit penchant for using stars for navigation it is a logical idea. The horse as Pegasus, also interesting but why no wings? Too obvious?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

I know what Jim is trying to say. The test is on one aspect of the Stone Maps. If it shows THAT aspect is over 100 years old, it proves they are at least that old. If the test proves THAT aspect is modern, it has no real bearing on the age of the Stone Maps. I know it is confusing, but once everything comes out, y'all will understand.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

I know what Jim is trying to say. The test is on one aspect of the Stone Maps. If it shows THAT aspect is over 100 years old, it proves they are at least that old. If the test proves THAT aspect is modern, it has no real bearing on the age of the Stone Maps. I know it is confusing, but once everything comes out, y'all will understand.

You are saying that the test could prove a particular aspect IS modern; Jim wrote;

The only other conclusion that could be reached by this chemical test, would be inconclusive

...so unless I read it wrong, he is saying this particular test, will either prove them over 100 years old, or any other result is quote "inconclusive". You hold that the test can have an alternate result, ie proving an aspect to be modern? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Mike,

There is only one test that can be done to determine any age concerning the composition of the Stone Maps as they exist today. Having seen the original picture of the maps on the bumper of that car, any such test would be a complete waste of time.

Since you, Mike, seem to have the inside information from Jim, you should be able to figure that out for yourself.

Beyond that, I don't believe any such test will be done by the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Having said that, it will be interesting to see how it all turns out, or fades into the sunset.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

This seems rather obvious to me. The Stone Maps are stone. That can't be dated, as far as I know.
An aspect would mean something we can see. Since we know you won't be able to date the stone, it would have to be something else that is a visible aspect of the maps.

It's been a fun little puzzle, but in the final analysis, it ain't likely that it will ever be tested, IMHO.

Time will tell.

Take care,

Joe