The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"Have you (or anyone else reading this) any idea if DeGrazia,Ward,or Aylor were users of metal detectors."

Tom Kollenborn knew all three men pretty well. I know that he knew DeGrazia very well. I talk to Tom on a regular basis and will be happy to ask him if he remembers any of them using a detector, if you like. Seems out of character for DeGrazia, but quien sabe?

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hi Beth,

"Why anyone would assume Tumlinson was right, is a whole 'nother question. (he didn't find it, did he?"

Not sure that I would equate figuring out that 8-N-P meant eight paces north, to not being able to figure out the rest of the stones.

Hope all is well up there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

"Have you (or anyone else reading this) any idea if DeGrazia,Ward,or Aylor were users of metal detectors."

Tom Kollenborn knew all three men pretty well. I know that he knew DeGrazia very well. I talk to Tom on a regular basis and will be happy to ask him if he remembers any of them using a detector, if you like. Seems out of character for DeGrazia, but quien sabe?

Take care,

Joe

I also came across a few slugs and a nut and bolt on a rock nearby.They had been there a while,so I couldn't see where they had been found(no holes visible).Still in the same area,though.It would seem to me that if DeGrazia went to the trouble of caching a few of his paintings out there,he would really want to make it possible for some average joe to find them.Since the Stone Maps were already well known when he buried his "Treasure",or so I believe,why would he make it so difficult that only those with an intimate knowledge of the mountains would stand a chance.I have some of my own ideas,but I thought that this would be a good time to throw this out there for others to play with.
I was looking at this photo,which reminded me of the two younger gentlemen swinging their detectors just over the brow of the hill from where I was pointing my camera at this pile of rocks,when the thought occured to me that, just maybe,DeGrazia had encountered amature treasure hunters such as these during his travels.Though they seemed disappointed with the fact that each tone led to a discovery of scrap metal,instead of the expected gold nugget,he may like I,have appreciated their enthusiasm for their hobby.
I have noticed that most of the members of this website,as well as others devoted to treasure hunting employ metal detectors in their search.Few of us are professional TH'ers.
Is it possible that Grazia could have felt sympatico for folks like us,Joe,more so than for the searcher/writers,hangers on,and many egotistical LDM hunters that he surely may have known well?
With the growing popularity of metal detecting at the time of DeGrazia's burial of the paintings(1976),is it possible that these bits of scrap metal mark the way?

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Beth,

"Why anyone would assume Tumlinson was right, is a whole 'nother question. (he didn't find it, did he?"

Not sure that I would equate figuring out that 8-N-P meant eight paces north, to not being able to figure out the rest of the stones.

Hope all is well up there.

Take care,

Joe

One would think that Tumlinson would have mentioned,at least in passing,his success in deciphering the 8-N-P....to someone else besides C.Mitchell.
Seems odd that he didn't,as I would think that he told the story many times and would have made his accomplishment a feature of the telling.

The syntax seems odd as well.

My personal favorite,though,is my own.
The "8" (scraping)..."-" (is to the)... "N" (Norte)... "-" (of the)... "P" (the big "P" on the heart shaped mound)or maybe (the "Perficio" stone map)..
I like that one cause it works best for me.

Regards:SH.

 

[gollum]

Also remember that the word PACE is NOT SPANISH. While the word PASO is, it would likely not have been used in this context. More likely if the intent was to go North 8 Paces, the word VARA(S) would have been used. Since a vara was the average stride of a Spanish soldier 31-33 inches, it is roughly the same thing, and was a more likely unit of measurement.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

The rumors are rampant that Ted DeGrazia drew treasure maps before he died. Some people, like myself, also believe he carved the Stone Maps. I don't know any of it for a fact. It's been said that he drew the map that is in Bob Wards book, showing where he buried his paintings. It's also been rumored that those paintings were 18 treasure maps showing the LDM. Lots of stories, no real facts.....that I know of.

I can tell you that he drew a picture of Indian "Pictographs" which had the word "DON" on it. In the same book, "DeGrazia and his Mountain...", he drew a priest (Kino) riding towards the Superstitions and holding a cross in front of him.

It's been awhile since I read Carol Locust's book, but I know that she was with DeGrazia in the Superstitions, when he burned his paintings. She mentions the names of others who were with them, but Bob Ward is not among those named. If you read her book, I believe you will come away with the same impression of truth that I did.

I have said that it is my opinion that DeGrazia was likely involved in creating the Stone Maps. I don't know it for a fact, but I have seen enough circumstantial evidence to make it a strong possibility, at least for me.

Don't have any more to give you, other than what I have mentioned before, so that will have to do.

Take care,

Joe

Muchas gracias Joe; rumors are not quite what I was looking for to reinforce DeGrazia's standing as 'suspect'; I don't know how much weight to give rumors especially from unknown people. I do wonder about the psychology of this theory; are not most artists quite negative on the whole idea of fakery? Fakes are the ugly side of the art world, something not just looked on with a wink and a nod but akin to a cheating poker player. I don't know many artists but the few I do, are very negative on fakes - even in non-artistic things. Since I didn't know DeGrazia, I can't guess how he would stand on this. Would DeGrazia get satisfaction out of such a scheme? It is certainly possible.

Gollum wrote

Also remember that the word PACE is NOT SPANISH. While the word PASO is, it would likely not have been used in this context. More likely if the intent was to go North 8 Paces, the word VARA(S) would have been used. Since a vara was the average stride of a Spanish soldier 31-33 inches, it is roughly the same thing, and was a more likely unit of measurement.

What do you think the 8-N-P actually stands for Mike? Do you think that part of the inscription is original or was it added later? <I am asking for opinion, so anyone who cares to say is welcome.> Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Also remember that the word PACE is NOT SPANISH. While the word PASO is, it would likely not have been used in this context. More likely if the intent was to go North 8 Paces, the word VARA(S) would have been used. Since a vara was the average stride of a Spanish soldier 31-33 inches, it is roughly the same thing, and was a more likely unit of measurement."

Interesting how you managed to hit the answer, and not even know it. They did not mean inches, feet, yards or anything other than the stride of a man.

Still.....Nice work.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

The rumors are rampant that Ted DeGrazia drew treasure maps before he died. Some people, like myself, also believe he carved the Stone Maps. I don't know any of it for a fact. It's been said that he drew the map that is in Bob Wards book, showing where he buried his paintings. It's also been rumored that those paintings were 18 treasure maps showing the LDM. Lots of stories, no real facts.....that I know of.

I can tell you that he drew a picture of Indian "Pictographs" which had the word "DON" on it. In the same book, "DeGrazia and his Mountain...", he drew a priest (Kino) riding towards the Superstitions and holding a cross in front of him.

It's been awhile since I read Carol Locust's book, but I know that she was with DeGrazia in the Superstitions, when he burned his paintings. She mentions the names of others who were with them, but Bob Ward is not among those named. If you read her book, I believe you will come away with the same impression of truth that I did.

I have said that it is my opinion that DeGrazia was likely involved in creating the Stone Maps. I don't know it for a fact, but I have seen enough circumstantial evidence to make it a strong possibility, at least for me.

Don't have any more to give you, other than what I have mentioned before, so that will have to do.

Take care,

Joe

Muchas gracias Joe; rumors are not quite what I was looking for to reinforce DeGrazia's standing as 'suspect'; I don't know how much weight to give rumors especially from unknown people. I do wonder about the psychology of this theory; are not most artists quite negative on the whole idea of fakery? Fakes are the ugly side of the art world, something not just looked on with a wink and a nod but akin to a cheating poker player. I don't know many artists but the few I do, are very negative on fakes - even in non-artistic things. Since I didn't know DeGrazia, I can't guess how he would stand on this. Would DeGrazia get satisfaction out of such a scheme? It is certainly possible.

Gollum wrote

Also remember that the word PACE is NOT SPANISH. While the word PASO is, it would likely not have been used in this context. More likely if the intent was to go North 8 Paces, the word VARA(S) would have been used. Since a vara was the average stride of a Spanish soldier 31-33 inches, it is roughly the same thing, and was a more likely unit of measurement.

What do you think the 8-N-P actually stands for Mike? Do you think that part of the inscription is original or was it added later? <I am asking for opinion, so anyone who cares to say is welcome.> Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Roy,

I'll have to get back to you on that one. HAHAHA Up until a day or so ago, I never gave much thought to solving the Stone Maps. My only concern was documenting their history from 1949 until present.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Good Evening Roy,

It seems to me that rumors and suspect would go hand in hand, but I have been looking at those rumors and circumstantial evidence for a number of years now.

My own theories are a bit different than you surmise. I believe Ted made the Stone Maps to lead to.... something. In other words, to him, they were not fakes at all.

As for fakes in art, Ted thought of it a little differently than you might. A great deal of DeGrazia's art was created by others, who worked for him. He did the original and they made the mass market products.

If you would like to know the inside, personal life of Ted DeGrazia, I don't think anyone told it better than Carol Locust in her very interesting book, "DeGrazia: The Rest of the Story".

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

HAHAHA Okay, it's later!

Anybody who thinks the 8-N-P is something unto itself is sorely mistaken. It is only a small part of a greater mysterious formulae. You need better resolution pics of that stone!

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Good Evening Roy,

It seems to me that rumors and suspect would go hand in hand, but I have been looking at those rumors and circumstantial evidence for a number of years now.

My own theories are a bit different than you surmise. I believe Ted made the Stone Maps to lead to.... something. In other words, to him, they were not fakes at all.

As for fakes in art, Ted thought of it a little differently than you might. A great deal of DeGrazia's art was created by others, who worked for him. He did the original and they made the mass market products.

If you would like to know the inside, personal life of Ted DeGrazia, I don't think anyone told it better than Carol Locust in her very interesting book, "DeGrazia: The Rest of the Story".

Take care,

Joe

Well, clearly the stones have quasi-religious motifs (taken by many to be Jesuit) and Spanish wording, which is not being honest if DeGrazia created them; in that sense, it would be fakery/fraud. It would be as dishonest as if he put Hebrew wording and Buddhist motifs, as he was neither Spanish nor Jesuit, nor working in 1847. In my opinion that would be dishonest on several levels by the creator(s) but that is just my opinion.

I don't have Locust's book you suggest, & I know our local library has diddly squat on him (a brief paragraph in an art book perhaps) so will have to take your word.

Gollum wrote

HAHAHA Okay, it's later!

Anybody who thinks the 8-N-P is something unto itself is sorely mistaken. It is only a small part of a greater mysterious formulae. You need better resolution pics of that stone!

Well thanks Mike, though that leaves me wondering about what you think it means, I guess that will do.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Anybody who thinks the 8-N-P is something unto itself is sorely mistaken. It is only a small part of a greater mysterious formulae. You need better resolution pics of that stone!"

I have some very high resolution pictures of the Stone Maps, perhaps the best available. Can't remember, did I send them to you

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

PS one more thing on DeGrazia - is it not also a common characteristic of artists, to desire recognition of their work? How many artists create works of art, and not sign them in a clear way (if sometimes "hidden" and have to look for) that will prove their efforts? Is there a signature of Ted DeGrazia somewhere on the Peralta Stones? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Going by your guidelines as to how it might be signed..........Maybe

"(if sometimes "hidden" and have to look for)"

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"Anybody who thinks the 8-N-P is something unto itself is sorely mistaken. It is only a small part of a greater mysterious formulae. You need better resolution pics of that stone!"

I have some very high resolution pictures of the Stone Maps, perhaps the best available. Can't remember, did I send them to you

Take care,

Joe

You didn't but Azmula did about three years ago on a disc. Maybe your pics were taken with the light at the wrong angle. I can't seem to find where I put that disc. I think I might have downloaded it to a hard drive that crashed. No worries.

I can see most of the rest of the formulae in my high res pics of my friend's cast copies. It begins with the witch/priest and ends in Sonora, MEX.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Going by your guidelines as to how it might be signed..........Maybe

"(if sometimes "hidden" and have to look for)"

Take care,

Joe

Hmm, will try this again - having some internet trouble here or perhaps it is the server but just lost my reply. Oh well here is what I think it was;

That is interesting amigo. Hidden in plain sight is often the very best place to hide something. As some artists place their signatures in the grass or tree branches, so that a casual glance it is invisible, yet is plain to see when you just look for it. Is that like DeGrazia's signatures on his other works, or is it quite different? I have only seen a very few pieces made by DeGrazia (which may have been the work of others, a factoid I did not know) and that online so am not familiar with his signature OR his habitual, preferred site to sign. Thank you in advance;

I don't wish to test your collective patience too much tonight, and have many more questions so will try to get to the point. There are still a couple of stumbling blocks (for me) but like the Kennedy assassination, there are so many different possibilities and so far, very few have been absolutely ruled out. What can be said, with certainty, that can be ruled out? Thank you to anyone who cares to answer this partick-lar puzzle.

Oroblanco

<Needmore-coffee>

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"That is interesting amigo. Hidden in plain sight is often the very best place to hide something. As some artists place their signatures in the grass or tree branches, so that a casual glance it is invisible, yet is plain to see when you just look for it. Is that like DeGrazia's signatures on his other works, or is it quite different? I have only seen a very few pieces made by DeGrazia (which may have been the work of others, a factoid I did not know) and that online so am not familiar with his signature OR his habitual, preferred site to sign."

You were expecting his full signature.......in cursive perhaps? I don't think Ted would have made the Stone Maps for a collector.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

You were expecting his full signature.......in cursive perhaps? I don't think Ted would have made the Stone Maps for a collector.

I had no expectations; the only signatures I can find (online) are in cursive, but they are paintings, not the same as a carving or sculpture. I know that artists also have different ways of signing too - it could be a full name in cursive, it could be simple initials in block letters - really depends on the artist doesn't it? I think there have even been a few artists who didn't sign at all but used a "sign" or symbol as a personal signature, though I can't recall any names and am no expert in art or artists. I don't know enough of DeGrazia's works to make that judgement call on whether this is, or is not his 'stamp'. Do you know of anything he signed in a similar way? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[Jim Hatt]

HAHAHA Okay, it's later!

Anybody who thinks the 8-N-P is something unto itself is sorely mistaken. It is only a small part of a greater mysterious formulae. You need better resolution pics of that stone!

Best-Mike

Mike,

Here is a Hi-Res close-up of the area of the Priest Maps showing the 8-N-P. I think anyone can see why most people believe that it was added sometime after the original artist had finished with the maps. In my opinion, it was added as additional information to aid someone in following the trail to the heart that the Priest is pointing to with the cross. (Which I favor the idea of it being a direct route "bearing" from some unstated starting point )

It has to have had some important meaning at the time it was scratched in. (if we only knew)

Jim

From a photo of the original Priest map

 

[gollum]

Jim,

Do you REALLY think it was added later? Sure it wasn't original and for some reason sanded almost off? Keep looking to the right of the "P". I can easily see a depression mark, a horizontal cave/mine symbol, a heart, then above and to the right (between the edge of the lettering and the right side of the stone, a circle within a circle and the words SONORA MEX. They are light but easily readable. I think there was more that was sanded off (for whatever reason) and is now unreadable.

Same thing on the horse side. Look carefully at the bottom left corner for the handle of the dagger, with the blade pointed at the bottom left corner. Also look at the E and 3 behind the horse. there is another figure close on the left side of those characters and what looks like an upside down heart to their right.

Best-Mike