The Peralta Stones

[Springfield]

That is an absolutely impossible situation. Before 1903, no PRIEST, nor anyone else
knew about magnetic declination DRIFT.
...

I have never even seen a Jesuit Map that has a magnetic declination marked on it.

Beth

I hate to keep disagreeing with you Beth, but declination drift has been a known factor for as long as magnetic compasses of any accuracy have been in use. It's a simple observation. Here where I live, for example (N32.87, W108.22), the drift has been 2 degrees in only the past 30 years. That's a lateral error of nearly 200 feet in only a mile. And this is exactly WHY you've never seen a Jesuit map (or any other well-made chart) with a magnetic declination on it. An exception of course - the hallowed USGS Quad sheets show declination, but by the time the revisions are published, they are already inaccurate. CARDINAL COORDINATES ARE PERMANENT.

If we are to assume that the Peralta Stones are literally to be used as a map, then the intelligence needed to create them (after all, they remain undeciphered 50+ years after their introduction) was much farther advanced than needing to enter the observed magnetic declination on them. The '8-N-P' most likely relates to something entirely different. I guess all angles need to be considered (no pun intended), but continuing to try to pin '8-N-P' to magnetic declination seems like a good way to waste time.

By the way, here's a useful website: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/struts/calcDeclination

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[cactusjumper]

All,

According to the book "Superstition Treasure", Tumlinson used "8 north paces" to find the trail maps. Is there some reason to not believe that explanation for 8-N-P?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Jim Hatt]

Springfield wrote: "but continuing to try to pin '8-N-P' to magnetic declination seems like a good way to waste time.."

I can personally testify to he truth in that statement!!!

But at least I was sitting in an air conditioned room, and wasn't hauling an 80 pound backpack while I was doing it.
(It could have been worse)

 

[Jim Hatt]

All,

According to the book "Superstition Treasure", Tumlinson used "8 north paces" to find the trail maps. Is there some reason to not believe that explanation for 8-N-P?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

Actually Joe, The way Mitchel presents that story in his book, it makes a lot of sense! The problem with it is... Other people who knew Tumlinson, and worked with him, never heard it, until it came out in Mitchel's book.

It almost seems to be too much of a "Pat" hand to be true.

In order for it to have been true.

1 - The trail maps would have had to have been intentionally buried exactly 8 paces North of the Horse/Priest map.

2 - The H/P map would have to have been intentionally buried where it was found.

3 - The H/P map was not buried when Tumlinson found it. It was only half buried, and he could see that it had inscriptions on it. (which is why it got his attention in the first place).

4 - Mitchel was big into "Sighting holes" in Saguaros, (something he also mentioned in that story) but after his book came out. Several people who had spent in time in the area with Tumlinson, said they could not remember seeing a Saguaro with a sighting hole in it anywhere in that area, and one was never found later either.

There are a number of things in Mitchel's book where he appears to have either "embellished" Tumlinson's story, or arbitrarily filled in some blank spaces in it, with how he "thought" it must have happened. As far as I know. Mitchel never admitted to making that part of the story up. But a lot of the "Old Timers" that knew Tumlinson believed he did.

The 8-N-P is shown right beside a heart on the map. No heart, or anything else on the Priest map was ever found in the area either. I think Mitchel believed 100% in the authenticity of the maps, and he made that story up, to help convince others that they were authentic, by providing evidence that "something" on them had already "worked". That act is probably responsible for more stone map non-believers than any other in the history of the stone maps. The people (who knew Tumlinson and actually believed in the authenticity of the maps) but knew that story was "bogus" told everyone what they thought about it. Once the word got around that there were "inaccuracies" in Mitchel's book. The number of non-believers grew rapidly, and everything in Mitchel's book became "suspect" and lost credibility.

I was not there myself, so everyone will have to take this as "hand-me-down" information that has come down through the decades. People have been fabricating false evidence, both for and against, the authenticity of the maps for so long, that everything has to be considered with fair amount of suspicion.

Anyway... Those are the reasons "I" don't believe in Mitchel's explanation for 8-N-P.

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

[If we are to assume that the Peralta Stones are literally to be used as a map, then the intelligence needed to create them (after all, they remain undeciphered 50+ years after their introduction) was much farther advanced than needing to enter the observed magnetic declination on them. The '8-N-P' most likely relates to something entirely different. I guess all angles need to be considered (no pun intended), but continuing to try to pin '8-N-P' to magnetic declination seems like a good way to waste time.]

It did not take Tumlinson 50+ years to decypher the meaning of 8-N-P and use that conclusion to find the two trail maps. He did it in a matter of hours. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, higher education makes it difficult to see the simple answer. While you are all trying to figure "isogonic drift", the movement and alignment of the stars and have worked, in some cases, for years on the calculations, Tumlinson used a simple calculation and found the trail maps in a few hours.

Why assume that the answer provided on page 28 can't be the truth? Too simple to comprehend?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

It did not take Tumlinson 50+ years to decypher the meaning of 8-N-P and use that conclusion to find the two trail maps. He did it in a matter of hours.

Joe,

As I said above. I don't believe that explanation of 8-N-P came from Tumlinson at all, and that it was a fabricated by Mitchel long after Tumlinson was out of the picture.



re:"Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, higher education makes it difficult to see the simple answer."

Truer words were never spoken! Einstein said... "Never confuse Education with Intelligence", but my favorite quote is from Oppenheimer...


"There are children playing in the streets who could solve some of my top problems in physics, because they have modes of sensory perception that I lost long ago". ~J. Robert Oppenheimer~

I have a fairly good education in some areas myself, but like many others. I often lack the intelligence to understand everything I know. ~Jim Hatt~

 

[Springfield]

All,

According to the book "Superstition Treasure", Tumlinson used "8 north paces" to find the trail maps. Is there some reason to not believe that explanation for 8-N-P?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

He would have had to have found the priest map first. What if had found the trail map first? Could he have back-tracked to the priest map? Too big a coincidence - too convenient. In fact, I stick to my opinion that the whole thing was a setup from the beginning. Not that the carvings aren't important - just don't like their Genesis Story.

 

[Jim Hatt]

The 'treasure map' debates, true vs magnetic vs year of declination, etc., turn out to be irrelevant in most cases (except 'mom & pop' crude maps which generally have errors of scale and geometry even greater than a few degrees of declination anyway). Why? Because a well-prepared 'treasure map', a real treasure map, was probably prepared by an educated person and definitely originally aligned to the cardinal points. The kicker is that these charts were then often rotated, all or parts of the map, at an arbitrary angle meant to deceive. This angle has often been mistaken for the magnetic declination. The amount of the arbitrary angle has also been known to appear on the map itself in some coded manner known only to the mapmaker and his confederates. These people were very clever, whoever they were (are) - moreso than us in many ways. The intent was to document and deceive.

Springfield,

Going back to what you posted earlier and I have quoted above. (I had to digest it for a while before responding)

That whole paragraph hit me like a sledge hammer when I first read it. It is obvious (to me anyway) that you are not just "Shooting from the hip" here and you are speaking from some kind of personal experience, or knowledge that you are keeping pretty close to your chest.

There are things on every piece of the stone maps that do work quite well in the field. But... Only if you dismiss the idea that north is always at the top of the map you are looking at. I have not been able to find a common denominator between all of the rotations, nor see a consistent pattern in the amount or direction of rotation of the information. In some cases I have come to the conclusion that from the "Big Picture" aspect, the map IS oriented with north at the top, but there are small portions of it (within the map like an inset drawing) which have a completely different orientation than the rest of the map, for that information to work in the field.

Chuck Kenworthy claimed that from the research he had done in Spain, he learned that there were 90 degree rotations to some of the information on the maps. I have not found that to always be true. In some cases, I see 45 degree rotations, 90 degree rotations, and even 180 degree rotations, without finding anything on the maps that alert me to where they are, or what degree of rotation is used. It could be there, and I just haven't recognized it yet. Since (as I understand it) the Latin Heart covers almost the entire area shown on the all the other maps, the answer may be in the Roman Numerals on the back of it.

Nobody could recognize these rotations of information, unless they had completely solved all the "codes' (for lack of a better word) on the maps. Or... They were intimately familiar with the lay of the land, in the specific areas the maps applied to.

Is any of this ringing any bells, or setting off any alarms for you, like your words did for me when I read them?

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

According to the book "Superstition Treasure", Tumlinson used "8 north paces" to find the trail maps. Is there some reason to not believe that explanation for 8-N-P?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

He would have had to have found the priest map first. What if had found the trail map first? Could he have back-tracked to the priest map? Too big a coincidence - too convenient. In fact, I stick to my opinion that the whole thing was a setup from the beginning. Not that the carvings aren't important - just don't like their Genesis Story.

Springfield,

I don't disagree with your opinions/conclusions, but something else would probably have led someone to the cactus with the sight hole first, and not the Priest/Horse stone. The way the story was told, it was blind luck that he found the first stone.

In further searching he found the cactus and looking thru the sight hole saw that it pointed directly to the hole he had dug. It is pure conjecture to think that it happened any other way than how Mitchell described it in his pamphlet.

Like all of the people who claimed "Hell I Was There" after Waltz died, the same is true of the Stone Maps. All of those stories are possible, but none can be confirmed as factual.

What we have, are the Stone Maps and the word of those closest to the finding of the maps. While that could all be fiction, and I believe it is,IMHO, there is no better evidence than that.

To say that the Stone Maps lead to nothing, is not quite true. I have found what the maps tell you to search for, by using them. By an amazing coincidence, the trail goes right through Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars, depicted by an X on the Stone Maps.

Finding any kind of documentation for "LaFrance's" in Arizona is near impossible, but it does exist. Considering that fact, what are the odds that you could find a direct connection between the LaFrance family and Ted DeGrazia? Try coming up with that number.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

If by page 28, you mean the page of "Superstition Treasures" that describes the finding of the stones, I can't rule it out for sure. If anybody wants to be skeptical of Tumlinson, then by all means do. I just am not because in 50+ years of the story and his identity being public, nobody has ever been able to prove that anything Tumlinson stated was false.

I also agree with you on the whole Isogonic Drift theory. I personally believe it has more of a chance of being a red herring than not. That is not to say it isn't possible (I haven't solved them myself either).

For the Isogonic Drift to be more than a distant possible theory, we would need to have an original engraving on one of the stones that gives a bearing, then one of the later (more shallow and less professional) engravings (IMHO) show the difference. I just don't see it. Maybe I missed something.

I see that the same thing is about to happen to me that happened before. I guess I am going to start looking into possible solutions to the Stone Maps. I hate it when this happens. HAHAHA I'm a bit too far away to run into the mountains to test out a theory every time I think of something. Maybe I'll just keep Jim running! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

Springfield,

You will have to excuse Joe. He has already completely solve the stone maps and concluded that they are fakes.
Yet he keeps coming up with things like the cave of gold bars, that support the idea that they are authentic, and everything is right where it should be.

Joe obviously has himself firmly planted on both sides of the fence, just to ensure that he can claim to have been right all along no matter what the end result is.

Just my own humble opinion...

 

[gollum]

Joe,

There is some reason not to take Mitchell at his word on the finding of the Stone Maps:

1. He was selling the book.

2. Finding all the stones in the same hole completely by accident is not as sexy as his book version.

3. His book version lends some credibility to the thought that the Stone Maps are authentic, and that since Tumlinson solved how to find the remainder of them from the one (how lucky that the first one he tripped over just happened to be the one of the four or five that would lead to the rest), that the clues engraved in them would lead to other things if properly deciphered.

The story as I posted was the one told by Robert Tumlinson to Gene Davis. Third hand information at best, but the same can be said for Mitchell's book version. I don't discount either version because I don't claim to have any inside knowledge of that part of the story.

Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

I'm a bit too far away to run into the mountains to test out a theory every time I think of something. Maybe I'll just keep Jim running! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

No need to keep me running Mike. I do a pretty good job of that myself. There is definitely an advantage to having an entryway to the Superstition Mountains, right across the road from where you live, and a couple of horses standing out in the corral with nothing better to do than head down the trail!

Don't forget... The stone maps are just a sideline for me. I came to Arizona to search for the "Dutchman's mine". Can't help it if I keep seeing things along the way, that I think are shown on the stone maps, in the same area where I believe the "Dutchman" to be.

What the Hey? It's all fun, and good for your health!

I definitely prefer it (10 times over) to sitting it a desk in a Nuclear Power Plant crunching numbers, or standing in a Lab twisting calibration pots all day.

Jim

 

[Springfield]

The thing about these stones is that 'they are what they are'. They should be scrutinized based only upon what they are and what is engraved on them, IMHO. It really doesn't matter where the stones were found or by whom - those 'truths' can never be 100% validated, and even if they could, won't lead to their solution. If it's all a mischievious hoax, then give the hoaxster credit for a job well done. If the stones are a puzzle to solve that will lead to something of great value, then realize that you're probably dealing with a genius intellect, someone who knows very well how our minds work and uses that knowledge against us.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I have posted these pictures any number of times. As a reward for my openness I have, been called an idiot. While that may be true, the maps speak for themselves. I have been on the trail and confirmed that the Stone Maps match the contours of the terrain.

Many people fail to see the connection, so it's always possible that my eyes are failing me here. On the other hand, I have a hard time with people saying what I have concluded or what I believe, when they don't really, by their own statements, understand anything I am stating or even showing.

Once again, I will explain what I believe and what I have found:

IMHO, The Stone Maps were likely created by Ted DeGrazia with Chuck Aylor, helping on the map portion. While I have seen others offer the DeGrazia connection, I arrived at that theory as the sole product of my own research.

The creators used the legends and stories attached to the Superstition Mountains to create the Stone Maps. They knew the terrain and landmarks, such as the heart and LaFrance's cave of gold bars, from years of close association with the area. I believe the Stone Crosses were made using the same kind of familiarity with the range.

Now the question that remains is......why did they do it? I suspect that Ted DeGrazia used gold that was smuggled out of Mexico to create LaFrance's cave of gold bars. They were marked with a crown and hidden in the Superstitions. The maps were meant to give authentication to the gold bars. Why that didn't happen is another story. That's just my opinion, not fact.

Proving there was ever a Harry LaFrance in Arizona is not easy, but it was done. Proving there was a connection between Ted DeGrazia and the LaFrance family was also difficult, but it has also been done.

I don't feel any need to prove the years I have been going into the Superstitions, as the only people/friends who count have no doubts. My information is not secret or come with a promise of show and tell at some future date. It's out in the open, and I don't mind being judged by what I post.

I also don't have a problem with people not believing anything I say. I don't get mad, I won't get even and I won't run away from the conversation.

I agree that the maps are what they are, and my map is as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

then realize that you're probably dealing with a genius intellect, someone who knows very well how our minds work and uses that knowledge against us.

Your whole post was excellent Springfield, but I especially liked the last line.

Many times I have sat down on a rock trying to figure out where I was going wrong. Why was everything working so well, and then all of a sudden, nothing was fitting anymore. (the inset part of the map that had some information rotated). I could almost sense the presence of that genius with a big smile on his face, watching and knowing that all the air was about to be sucked out of my theory as soon as I turned the next corner.

If he has any sense of fair play at all. He at least respects the perseverance he has observed on my part, for continuing to go back over and over to the same places, until I got myself oriented in the right direction, to make the information fit the way it was intended to.

I have fallen for every one of his attempts to make the way I think work against me! Even though I know that, it is difficult not to be attracted to the obvious things that were intentionally put there, to keep someone from noticing the subtle little signs of previous disturbances in the landscape. At times it appears that for every valid clue to what took place in an area, there are a half dozen red herrings scattered around to distract you from it.

I read your words, and something keeps telling me... He's been there and done that!

 

[Springfield]

I read your words, and something keeps telling me... He's been there and done that!

The first intent of the engraver is to discourage you, so that you give up and go away. If that fails, the next goal is to educate you.

There are dozens if not hundreds of similar enigmas every bit as complex and intriguing, or even more so, as these Peralta stones, found all over America and beyond. The more of it you see, the more mindblown you become. These numerous 'lost treasures' are inconceiveably complex scavenger hunts devilishly designed by people operating at the absolute highest levels. Underlying all of it are the questions, 'Who?' and 'Why?'

You were correct earlier when you said it was all fun and good for your health. You can't lose with a deal like that.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies and Gentlemen: I am reminded of the following words-->

There are children playing in the streets who could solve some of my top problems in physics, because they have modes of sensory perception that I lost long ago". ~J. Robert Oppenheimer~

**********************

All too true, are you trying to make the maps too complex and clever ? Eliminate the possible chaff and work with the rest.

Incidentally, the possibility of Tum. finding the first stone map, then using it to find the others, yet was unable to use the same maps to find the target leaves me a bit ----- er--- ah-- hmm.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Jim Hatt]

Don Jose,

Rest assured I have spent many hours evaluating, and trying to reset my own modes of sensory perception to the simplest level possible.

It has been my experience over the years, that every time I conclude to toss something out as chaff (on the stone maps) I later find that it has purpose and I have to put it back. I have finally come to the conclusion that everything on them has a specific purpose. Anything that appears not to, is most likely due to the fact that I have not figured out just what that purpose is yet.

Going back to what Springfield said. There comes a time when you have to develop a focus on the maps themselves and what is inscribed on them. Determining who lied about what with respect to their discovery, is not going to put a person any closer to what they lead to, any more than discovering if Ruth died of natural causes, or was murdered, is going to lead anyone to finding the Lost Dutchman Mine.

There is nothing wrong or dangerous about sitting in your recliner with a good piece of source material, and running yourself in circles over all of the possibilities. Eventually the wife will ring the dinner bell and pull you out of your endless loop of thought.

It is a totally different thing to let yourself go running around in circles out in the mountains. There are no clues to finding the truth about how the stone maps were discovered, or how Ruth died to be found out there. Best to leave all that kind of stuff behind when you start breaking trail, and remain focused on the task of understanding what is inscribed on the maps, and returning home as intact and unbruised as possible when the trip is over.

It's a good life! It doesn't get any better, for people that can maintain a song in their hearts, and a dream in their heads through all the blood, sweat and disappointments.

Jim

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I hate to keep disagreeing with you Beth, but declination drift has been a known factor for as long as magnetic compasses of any accuracy have been in use. It's a simple observation. Here where I live, for example (N32.87, W108.22), the drift has been 2 degrees in only the past 30 years

You may disagree all you like, Springfield - but it doesn't make you right - it makes you wrong. Yes, they knew about a couple of degrees, and I'm assuming your compass is current. But, that is NOT the point of declination drift.

It means this, simply, this. (I'm making it simple, so maybe you will understand the point).

IF IT IS MEANT TO BE A MAGNETIC DECLINATION, THEN, BECAUSE OF MAGNETIC DRIFT, THE MEASUREMENT IS NO LONGER VALID IF THE STONES ARE REAL.

IF IT IS CORRECT, NOW, IT MEANS THAT THE STONES WERE NOT MADE UNTIL AFTER 1903 AD.

The magnetic pole is not even where it was back then - in fact, the drift of the magnetic north pole is accelerating, as we speak.

We know this:

As has been known for centuries, the Earth is magnetic, with poles at either end. These poles are close to (but not exactly coincident with) the Earth's axis of rotation, and both its position around the geographic pole, and the strength of the magnetic field, vary.
In the 20th Century, the magnetic North Pole moved over 1000 km towards the geographical North Pole, and in the decade of the 1990's the strength of the magnetic field fell by 1%.

We also know that in 1903, declination drift was finally discovered, and was worked out (formula-wise) by 1906.

Here is a little notation from the University in Wisconsin you might find interesting. It deals with all the properties that nobody here seems to even care about. Magnetic declination, magnetic variation, and magnetic deviation.

If the stones are real, and the 8-N-P is a measurement, then it is an important element to defining where it will lead you. If they are NOT real, and the declination drifts are correct, you will know they were made after 1903-1906. (and, by the way, there are longitudinal and latitudinal calculations).

Magnetic Variation
Another factor that alters the value of magnetic declination is called variation, which occurs over long periods of time. Due to the dynamic nature of the earth's interior, the magnetic field is constantly changing. This causes "drift" of magnetic north and oscillations of the magnetic meridian. This change in magnetic declination is called annual change (also secular variation). It follows trends in the short term, but is very unpredictable in the long term. Lines of annual change in Wisconsin now drift about 6.5' west each year. In a year the 0° line will have moved 6.5' west and by the following year it will be approximately 13' west. (6.5' of westerly shift in Wisconsin is approximately 11 miles).

Just consider this - how far off could you walk, if you did not take variation and drift into consideration and there was an 11 mile difference, in where we were looking for a treasure

These measurements of variation, drift etc. were not worked out until the 20th century. Its as simple as that.



Beth