The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Who ever said it was an Apache Burial Site?

The place is sacred to the Apache because it belongs to their Gods. They likely thought that because of all the strange booming sounds coming from somewhere inside the range. When they couldn't identify what was making the booming sounds, they assumed it must have been the "Thunder Gods."

Best-Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

There was not much in the Apache physical world that was not considered "sacred". The Gan were not considered to live in only one mountain range, but seemed to be in them all. For anyone interested in the Apache spiritual culture, I would highly recommend Keith Basso's "Wisdom Sits in Places: Landscape and Language Among the Western Apache".

You can't read the Apache understanding into your consciousness, but Basso gives you a clear path to a better understanding of their ways and beliefs.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are numerous specific areas in the Superstitions that are sacred to various Native American tribes. It's not at all difficult to believe there may be burial sites, sites of important individual or group accomplishments, etc... hidden never to be discovered.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thom,

Think I posted this picture before, but I never get tired of this kind of meeting:

Perhaps he was just too young to be afraid.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Quinan Bear, Ladies, the few gentlemen that might frequent this room, along with the other bums. I have hesitated entering into this conversation for many reasons, not the least is that I have never looked for the LDM, and except for flying over it once in Stearman, I Have never visited it, or the area, let alone on foot.

However, I have had a similar experience. We, in here, while tracing the migration of the Aztecs, found the location of Atlantis. Like you, we used Google sat. services. It is just about where ancient legend places it. It was posted in here, but, except for a very few posts, it has not even been acknowledged.

I am a duly elected member of the 'Explorers Club', I submitted the data to their forum, and to date, no-one has seen fit to even ask me any questions. www.explorers.org

I frankly put it down to being 'jaded', ho hum! With so many places in the entire world having been reported as the actual location of Atlantis, the few people with perhaps a 1/2 interest, are naturally, quite sceptical when another site is advanced. So they ask questions, and more questions which probably cannot be answered without physical proof, so they soon start questioning the source of the data, in this case you.

Unfortunately, we all react negatively / defensively when we, and our motives, are questioned which in turn leads to a further distancing.

I can see no differences between the Atlantis report, and your post of having solved the LDM puzzle, both are presently without viable proof. They both require putting the reader into the orig. viewers point of view. As you know, this opens a a new can of fish - as a crude example look at the politics in Canada - forget the US - it is almost beyond reasonable / logical explanation, mostly emotionable.

Then to throw in the non profit or recouping of expenses, or even supposedly giving it all to a city, most of whose residents have arrived within the past 20 years, and you have lost many more.

Personally, I 'do' know what many in here feel, in the end the successful conclusion of a search is almost reward enough. There are many and possibly cross confusing reasons for this, however to just give it to people that probably have never looked for the LDM, knew of it's existence, or even cared, sits badly.

Then again, from personal experience, many feel cheated in a distant way by not having found it themselves and subconsciously show it in their posts to you. In my case I had extensive correspondence with a gentleman in the UK . The moment that he found out that I had already found our mutual target, all correspondence ceased immediately. To this day, despite numerous attempts, he will not talk to me. I can definitely understand this.

Fortunately the posters in here are above this, stillll.

So it is with the LDM, the attitude is "not again"? sigh. Can you blame them??

So just relax my friend, and if you feel up to it, post the data piece by piece, copyrighted - ©@ - of course.

You will really find that most in here are quite reasonable people, that I enjoy calling "my friends", as you wll also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Quinan Bear]

Real de Tayopa;

Thank you Tayopa.
Did you happen to visit the Indian tank that I posted for the location of the mine that the Jesuits had blown the above cliffs to cover its entrance? It would be nice if that treasure could be dug up to show proof of its existance.
I was always told to stand firm in what you know to be right and that is exactly what I plan to do. Many people have many opinions, I must say from reading up on what you post and your replies, that you have my respect Sir. I know that my understanding of how people thought back then, is different then what others think, but is it too wrong to think they I have a solution that no other thought of and that it may be the right solution to solving the Stones. This is what their affraid of. I said it once and I'll say it again, My name is David William Muise and you will come to know this name for what I will show the world...

 

[BILL96]

Quinn,
Here is another thought, I think people would have a lot more respect for you and your claims if you were actually out doing some leg work. At this point your are just a guy in front of a computer claiming to have solved some of the biggest mysteries in the southwest without ever leaving home and you are dismayed that no one will take you seriousley. If Mel Fischer had just sat home and simply tried to tell everyone where one of the greatest ship wrecks of all time was because he had located it on google earth, it may never have been found. Mel got respect because he got out and made the search himself. If you are not willing to make a minimal effort youself for something that you are so convinced is true I do not think you will get much of a following even if you are right.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

It's really more than that. It's amazing how many of these (I have found exactly where everything is) folks sound like the exact same person, only using another identity. What they also have in common, is no real time in the Superstitions.

Something they all fail to recognize is that we have been all over there "find" or know people who have. In this case, we are talking about Clay Worst, and I doubt David has any idea who that is, or his history in the mountains.

Since he has no problem showing everyone exactly where his "find" is, maybe he should show us a topographic map with the Stone Maps laid over it, like I have done. Showing the correlation between the two maps will likely give him a little more respect, and possibly bring him a partner.

So far, the only person I have ever seen do that is.......me. It's no trick to find a hat here, the cross there and other parts of the maps in any mountainous terrain. The trick is to find them in the correct sequence, matching the entire map to the land and in the correct spatial perspective.

How do you find a "vault" with a Google satellite picture? These guys have no idea how ridiculous their claims sound to those who are familiar with the mountains. If they spent some time in there, they might.

In the past, we have humored these guys for much too long. Bowman carried on for many months getting farther out with each passing day. It's something to do while things are slow, but almost no one takes them seriously.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

I believe I did in fact, show you an area that did match that of the priest stone, I even pointed out where the mine was. Now I'm sure you didn't bother to go out there and see for yourself, So how could YOU be so sure that I'm wrong.
Yes, I have never been there personaly, but there are other ways to see what is out there, other then actualy going, such as photos and maps of various types like, geographical, magnatomic, topographical and lets not for get Google earth viewer. I studied what I needed to and it didn't come from a book that was writen by a guy that never found what is it he writes about.

I could show you the true location of where you need to be to see the entire map that is on the stone and exactly as it is on the stone, with all the markers as they are seen. Why should I ? Why should I give you this, when I have given you the location one of the mines and you laugh ? Sorry, but a kind person that show interest will be given this information and it's not you.

 

[Salvor6]

Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?

 

[cactusjumper]

David,

I thought we were done but there is always some hope that, assuming this is not just you joking, something will get through to you. I didn't really expect you to get what I and others were saying, and you didn't disappoint me.

You are coming here, among people who have have not just been in the Superstitions, but have soaked her in through our pores. A number of us have sat by a lonely campfire with no company but the coyote choir and, for me, the ghosts of my friends, ancestors and those who's stories I know so well.

Now comes David, who tries to tell us he knows how we all feel about our mountains, comparing them to the great Canadian wilderness.
Having hiked and hunted in the great forests of Colorado, Wyoming and Alaska, I can't say they hold a piece of my soul like the Superstitions. Having never been there, you can't imagine what I mean. No doubt you have the same feelings for your mountains, but we are not telling you we know more about them than you do.......based totally on satellite pictures and maps.

You are going to need a great deal more than that to convince us that this is more than another wanna-be having a good time. You have been given as fair a shake as the "evidence" you have presented deserves. You are obviously looking for agreement here, and we are all looking for something we can agree with.

Some people need to be slapped with reality and truth early on. If you actually believe what you are posting, you are one of those people.

What is there in this picture that convinces you that you are looking at a mine?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Salvor6,

"Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?"

Until Summer hits Arizona, things slow down on the forums. Boredom sets in, and those of us who can no longer get into the mountains, speaking only for myself, get bored with the lack of Dutch Talk.

I have other reasons for talking to folks like David. Don't want him to start taking himself too seriously
and doing something stupid, like going into the Superstitions by himself. Big heads are a dangerous load to pack into those mountains.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This is a VERY long reply so I must beg your indulgence.

Thank you Thom, Joe and everyone for the concern and kind words. I believe that many of us here are 'sons of the same father' and cut from the same cloth. There is a connection that never goes away nor even dims with time. I am sorry for not keeping in touch better, just been rather busy recently. I will try to stay in touch better, and you know that if there really were a problem Beth would sure let you know. Now back to our subject matter.

Quinan Bear wrote

I know all about the thrill of the adventure and the beauty of nature. I also know, that if it.s not me that will reveal these locations, someone else will.
I'm not stopping you from your treasure hunting, I was just trying to shed light on a tale that has been going for over 150 years. I see that your not interested in the truth. You just like to go on about your adventures and finds, hoping that one day you would find "the big one". best of hunting to you.

Like I said before, I know I'm right. If you don't believe me, then don't. No sweat off my back but don't try to turn this into a joke, just because you would rather debunk the idea and do whatever you can to try to get me or others that do believe, to not go looking for this treasure. All so that you yourselves could be left alone to find this treasure and keep it for yourselves (typical Americans).

You all talk like you know better. Have any of you found any of these mines? have you found the Vault? You keep dreaming about it. once I give this information to the government, they will take the time to go look, they Will find what it is I have been trying to show you guys. They will go to each and every place that I will tell them to go and then they will take what is there and they will surely make these areas "off limits" to you all. After that, the area will never be the same, you will all lose the opportunity to go treasure hunting in these areas.

I came to you with the best of intensions, a kind hearted offer and offered you all, friendship. Instead of getting a warm welcome I got teased, mocked and laughed at. Well the jokes on you.
For those of you that do hear me and think that I am right. Here is one place to go to, to find one of the mines in the area. once in the area, just look for a clump of trees in a ravine that head up the hill to the east, the mine is in these trees, just at the top of the tree line.

Hola amigo David <Quinan Bear>,
How would you take it, if I were to show you some satellite images and tell you this is exactly, precisely the location of the lost Lemon mine? Would you believe me? Would you fuel up your outfit and head for the mountains? Your attitude shows a remarkable lack of understanding of how your statements come across. This seems to be a pattern too - for as has been mentioned, you are not exactly the first person to start posting statements and satellite photos claiming to have found the LDM and coincidentally have worked out the Peralta stones. Like several of your predecessors, you act insulted and affronted that so few of your friends here have NOT immediately started congratulating you and gone packing up to see those sites.

You have said you were a trapper as a boy; so was I. You mentioned that you have gone prospecting all over Canada; well I can't say ALL over Canada but a fair portion of the Yukon, Ontario and even a bit in BC and Alberta, where I could not legally file a mining claim if I did make a find but sometimes when you see streaks of black sands the legalities of the matter grow fuzzy for a real prospector. Are you aware that some folks feel sorry for you, as a prospector, since you waste your life tramping over the mountains and soaking in ice-cold streams panning for gold? They figure that you must be driven solely by greed, that you only wish to get rich quick. Are you crestfallen if someone else finds a good mineral deposit, right in the same general area where you have gone but found nothing worth bothering with? Do you see what I am getting at here?

I for one would absolutely LOVE to see someone, anyone in fact, find the Lost Dutchman gold mine if only to be able to rub the noses of the naysayers in it - for there are plenty of folks who say it never existed. I am not buying it when someone tells me he (or she) has found it, but has not even a speck of gold to show for it - for remember, it is a GOLD MINE. The "Vault" of treasure should be easy to prove up with photos. How exactly does a person see a vault, which would be underground, from a satellite image? Even if you could see an outline of a square or rectangle, which is possibly indicating some kind of underground room - how would you know it is a treasure vault and not just an old outhouse pit?

I really hope you will make the trip and go see for yourself whether your sites are what you say they are or not. I doubt that you will bother to make the effort, and will likely respond by making some more deprecating remarks about "us" treasure hunters and suggesting that we live in a dream world rather than run the risk of finding out your theories are wrong.

I have one more question for you amigo and will not bother you further - do you suppose that the Lost Dutchman/Peralta is the only lost treasure or lost mine that "greedy" treasure hunters search for? It is arguably the most famous or infamous, but hardly the only one. If it were found this moment, and tourists were to then start having guided held-by-the-hand trips to go and see it, do you suppose that treasure hunters would then have nothing left to search for, and by extension, no reason to even BE a treasure hunter any more? There are many, many more lost treasures for us to seek amigo, more than a non-treasure hunter could even believe. Just within Arizona, are over 300 lost mines and ore ledges which have never been rediscovered, literally thousands of them scattered all over the western US, Canada and Mexico; as for treasures the list is astounding - if I were to try to list them all here it would take me days and days to get it done and I am a fairly fast typer. You may choose to disbelieve this or think I am just blowing smoke - but in a fair percentage of the lost mines (for example) there are recorded assays, sales of gold or silver receipts, eyewitnesses who saw and/or handled the ores or placer gold, and newspaper accounts. I am going to have to do up a "photo essay" to demonstrate just how easily such a thing as a gold or silver mine can be LOST - and as a prospector you should appreciate it. Besides, it is a very small step from being a prospector to being a treasure hunter - a prospector looks for valuable mineral deposits, and many a lost mine is indeed a valuable mineral deposit, just that someone else found it before you and then the location has been lost.

The Lost Dutchman gold mine is factual. Whether it is found or remains lost, it continues to generate income for local businesses. At least a half dozen different folks have claimed to have found this mine in the past year, and every one has a different spot and of course, NO gold to show, when it is a gold mine. David I would hope to be among the first to congratulate you and shake your hand if you find the Lost Dutchman mine, but it is going to take more than some satellite photos. A sample of the ore can seal the deal in a scientific way, so that even the majority of the skeptics can't argue it. What you do with the mine(s) and or gold if you find it, is your decision to make - but first you have to find it.

Salvor6 wrote

Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?

Well amigo I think most of us try to keep an open mind to the possibility. It is to be expected that someone who finds it, will be excited about his/her find, and may well decide to tell the world about the discovery. The finder will have earned a place in the history books, for sure. All of us have some 'quirks' about us, some of us even have some 'wild ideas' that most people don't agree with, so we try to welcome all fellow treasure hunters and are willing to hear them out. With some of these claimers, as in Blindbowman for instance, even though his claims and theories were pretty far out, at least they were interesting and almost forced us to go back and research the backgrounds of the theories. With others we have no such interesting (if wild) background to research, just posting "I found it now give me all the respect and honors I am due" and often enough these same fellows are insulted that so few people are ready and willing to grant that respect and honors. I half-suspect that several of them are in fact the same person, using different internet ID's for whatever reasons. Anyway it costs nothing to be respectful and hear someone out, and perhaps the next one will have a sample of gold ore that matches the ore from Jacob Waltz - you never know!

To our next claimant to having found the LDM/Peralta treasure(s) - please, consider how it sounds when you tell the world about your discovery (or -ies, plural) and try to think of what it will take to prove such claims, like a sample of the gold ore, photos of the treasure vault etc. Without such evidence, some of us are just not going to agree that you have indeed found the LDM/Peralta treasures.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS (as if my last post were not long enough) I absolutely LOVE those photos amigos, and yes that is really what gets a person "hooked" in this business or avocation, the 'friends' we make along the way! Can anyone put a dollar value on that?

 

[Old Dog]

My point exactly.
Welcome back old friend.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

What is there in this picture that convinces you that you are looking at a mine?

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

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Phone: 424-288-2000

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[Quinan Bear]

That place is where it is located, yes.
It is not by looking there, that made me believe there was one there. It was the Stone map of the Priest that lead me there. The curve shape of the small valley that runs east up over the hill, is the curve you see just next to the ring and cross. So you come from the large cross, then turn right, then you hit the mine (the ring), then you see the cross in stone, another turn left then the heart (which I assume is where the other mine is) then you will see "8-N-P".
It's a Shame that you would rather debunk the very thought that I'm right, rather then give me the benefit of a doubt and actualy looking at what I am saying. That's O.K., I will defend myself in what I believe.
If you were to forget about the mine that is there and looked at the convergences of three faults, how there is clearly different rocks meeting at this conjunction as well. You see, I looked at WAY more then just the way the land looked from Google, I did take the time to study any information that I could from USGS. I am more then just a treasure hunter, I'm a man of the earth. If your looking for a vein of gold, you need to know how the vein got there. I don't need to tell you of what I know or how I came to my conclusion, since you don't even believe me.

Have A nice Day...

 

[Quinan Bear]

Just wanted to add;
The lost Dutchman and the peralta Family both hid their mines to look like nobody was ever there. So if you think that your gonna go there and see a mine entrance, your not.
The Peralata's removed all trace of them being there.
None of these mines will be seen, just by walking up to the area and seeing it.

I found these areas by looking at the stones and my photos and map. I searched till I found all the markers on the stones. I made sure that each marker matched the stones. When I found the heart, I looked for all the markers that where on the Heart stone. I found the Crater, Place of worship, smelting area, Where the water flows over gold, 4 mine sites, the over hanging cliffs, the flat areas, the highest point..etc.... I found everything that i shown on the stones and they are all where they are supposed to be, compaired with the stones.
This is why I claim to have solved the stones. Not just one stone or some of the stones, but ALL the stones. along with ALL their markers.

Believe me or not, mock me if you wish. I'm not here to put any of you down or to claim to know more about the Superstitions then you guys that have actually been there. All I said was that I figured the stones out and that I wanted help to document them. Although you don't believe or want to help, I still do get replies from people that do believe and that will help.

So you see, with or without your help, I will show the wolrd these sites.