The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Lamar my friend and future coffee drinking buddy, I had no intentions to get into a involved discussion on religion. I was merely referring to your remark which was very odd, inferring that a simple human vote could renderhim above human. -->

he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
as for the new vein exposure, i aologize, I missed your previous remark on that in yesterdays post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Papal indulgences, I still have mixed emotions and thoughts there.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

To sum all of this up succulently, if a lode strike has reached the surface of the Earth (it's not known as a strike if it hasn't by the way) for any extended period of time, then there will be associated placer deposits, however the placers are subject to movement, sometimes minor and sometimes major. I do hope this clarifies my statement to the clarity of fine glass, as I am growing weary of discussing basic geology over and over.

I have addressed this subject in another thread, and I fully comprehend the opinion of Lamar that all gold lodes have placers, however for the benefit of our readers who may be reading our discussions but not actively posting, Lamar is incorrect in his statements, for not all gold lodes have placers associated with them. It depends on the environment the lode exists in. Even an exposed vein or bed, if not exposed to weathering forces, or if the topography prevents any movement of any eroded materials, the lode will not produce a placer. A Blind Lead* is a good example of a gold vein which will not (likely) produce any placer. To anyone interested in the subject, and I presume if you are prospecting you are definitely interested, read some geology books for more information. Don't take my word for it. Here are the published words of professional geologists, as posted above

It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona. The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.

When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it."

<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp 244>

*A Blind Lead is a gold vein which has not become exposed to the surface, often being close to another gold vein to which it is not closely related. A good book to serve as a reference of mining, prospecting and geological terms is Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, and Related Terms By American Geological Institute http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=3540012710*

***Anyone interested in discussing the geology of ore deposits, both lode and placer, I would suggest starting a new thread and post an invitation or send a PM - I would be happy to join in. I am not a geologist but have over three decades experience in prospecting and mineral exploration, and am still learning this very interesting and potentially profitable science. ***

Lamar also wrote

And you also queried:
<Oroblanco asked>
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,


All I can say is that you would need to be able to present some very good physical evidence in order for my opinion to be swayed.

I am a little surprised that you went to the trouble to answer my earlier question, as I had concluded there was obviously no possible evidence which could sway your opinion which was why you did not bother to post such an obvious reason. Thank you for your reply, As you have already shown strong doubts as to anything I <and several other members here with far more experience than me> might say, and the existing <known> evidence must not be enough for your conclusions to be re-examined, and I do not have the Lost Dutchman mine in my possession, I won't bore you further with more attempts to get you to change your mind.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

I will only ask one question regarding two people on the subject of Papal Infallibility:

Do you find absolutely no fault with Pope Pius XII for providing escaping Nazi War Criminals easy passage to South America? Or maybe his Bishop Montini (later to become Pope Paul VI), who directly aided Father Dragunovic (Franciscans) in extricating the Comandants of the Concenrtation Camps of Sobibor, Treblinka, and Drancy?

How much stolen war loot wound up in the Vatican's Coffers after the war? Quite a bit. It is currently the subject of a major warcrimes lawsuit (2009).

Back to the subject:

As far as proof of LDM existence, there is ample evidence of it. You just need to read a couple of the well researched and annotated books on the subject.

You stated:

If you make an honest effort to redeem yourself in the future then I shall overlook your faux pas thus far, my friend.

Okay okay okay.............Bless me Father for I have sinned. It has been 46 years since my last confession......................


How many Hail Mary's do I owe Faddah?

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
I firmly believe that the issue of the Pope's infallibility is a subject which we should not be discussing at any great length on this forum, lest the mods involve themselves in this thread. My personal beliefs on the Roman Catholic Church and her doctrine's are in fact PERSONAL and in light of this, I feel that my particular point of view may open a can of worms among other forum members whom hold beliefs other than my own.

Also, what the Roman Catholic Church may have, or may not have done immediately prior to, during, or after WWII, is a subject for historians and scholoars to discuss and debate at length my friend. I do personally feel that in WWII there were many guilty parties as well as many innocents and it's up to our Lord to decide the innocence or guilt of those so involved. I do know that, according to surving documentation, a great many Roman Catholics perished at the hands of the belligerents and most of those strictly for their personal religious beliefs and the actions which they based their beliefs upon, yet we do not read of the Church attempting to extract retribution through the various national and international courts.

I do know of many Jewish people whom were aided by their Christian brethren, most notably the Roman Catholic nuns and monks of Europe. At the risk of their lives, these nuns and monks aided and abetted countless Jews and others whom were fleeing persecution at the hands of the Axis regimes, yet those are not the subject of debates. A great many Italian citizens also aided the Jewish population of Italy and Sicily and when caught, were remorselessly executed by the Nazis or Italian facsicists and yet these poor martyrs have become a mere historical footnote.

I also feel that WWII was a very personal war in that there existed good and bad on all sides of the conflict, therefore it is impossible to point a finger at any particular group and declare innocence or guilt based solely upon overall deeds and misdeeds.

If one may recall the ENTIRE Nazi era, one might soon understand that while the Jewish populations were the most affected, they weren't the ONLY group who were singled out and persecuted by the Nazi regime. I should now like to insert a quote from the source:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

The Vatican, seeking accurate information, found helpers in unusual quarters. A large and unrecognised army of witnesses passed along secret reports and documents. This ad hoc Catholic intelligence grapevine had, as one of its leaders, Dr. Joseph Mueller, an anti-Nazi Munich lawyer known for his coolness and dependability. As an officer in the Abwehr (Military Counter-Intelligence), he was able to move freely between Munich, Berlin and Rome. In his Abwehr bag he carried sheaves of documents giving a detailed account of the campaign being waged against Catholics inside Germany, and, after the Anschluss of 1938, in Austria.

It was clear from Mueller’s documentation that clergy were being singled out for ridicule, humiliation and punishment. The famous ‘Currency’ and ‘Immorality’ trials which peaked in 1935 and 1936, resulted in the imprisonment and fining of hundreds of clergy.

The ‘Immorality’ trials sought to destroy the reputation of Catholic religious, aimed in particular at those working in primary and secondary schools. Priests, monks, lay-brothers and nuns were accused of “perverted and immoral” lifestyles — euphemisms for homosexuality and paedophilia. The Gestapo set numerous traps in order to furnish bogus evidence. The New York Times carried a report in May 1936 describing priests who had been summoned to hotel rooms after desperate messages to administer the last sacraments were received. When the priest entered, the ‘caller’ would turn out to be a prostitute, planted by government agents. Photos would be later produced in court as irrefutable evidence of corruption.

One notorious trial in 1936 concerned the Franciscans of the Rhineland town of Waldbreitbach. This was widely publicised and parents were warned in sanctimoniously penned editorials not to allow their children to enter Catholic schools if they wished to avoid corruption of the innocent. Even children themselves were encouraged to read the lurid accounts. In several cities, newspaper stands were purposely lowered so youngsters could read salacious and pornographic stories accompanied by cartoons in the pages of Der Stuermer (the newspaper controlled by Julius Streicher, notorious anti-Semite and anti-Catholic). Witness statements from children were produced in court by secret police whose testimony was not challengeable. Threats, bribes, brutal night-time interrogations and nervous breakdowns of the accused were reported in various newspapers outside Germany.

In the USA, protest meetings and marches were organised as news of the trials spread. In June 1936, a petition was signed by 48 clergymen. “We lodge a solemn protest against the almost unique brutality of the attacks launched by the German government charging Catholic clergy with gross immorality,” they wrote. “The good name of the Catholic priesthood is to be defamed, in the hope that the ultimate suppression of all Jewish and Christian beliefs by the totalitarian state can be effected.” This protest was signed by Rabbis Samuel Abrams of Boston, Philip Bernstein of Rochester and Philip Bookstaber of Harrisburg, along with 18 other Rabbis and 27 Protestant clergymen. The New York Times reported that Christmas 1937 would see “more than a hundred Protestant pastors and several thousand Catholic clergymen in prison.”

Although roving SA and Hitler Youth gangs were warned in general against turning prominent clergy into martyrs, threats and violence against priests became common. Sometimes, in the wake of local instructions, senior clergy would be intimidated. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich was shot at and Cardinal Innitzer’s residence in Vienna was ransacked in October 1938. There was a notorious incident in the same month when Bishop Sproll of Rottenburg was manhandled and his residence vandalised. He later received an anonymous letter of apology from an SA man, forced to take part in the outrage: “I have always been proud of my country”, he wrote, “But last Saturday, I was, for the first time, ashamed to call myself a German.”


This actually happened, my friend. The physical evidence tells us that this happened and the Nazi regime was rather proud of it. They recorded these atrocities and wrote all sorts of accounts in state ran and controlled publications. In light of all this, please do not point the finger of guilt at any religious organization. There are simply too many victims and not enough fingers.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
To jog your memory just a bit, an estimated 6 MILLION Poles died during the German occupation of that country. An estimated 50% of those Poles were Jewish. And the other 50%? They were Roman Catholic, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear SWR;
Yes, my friend, it seems there may be yet another conspiracy looming on yonder horizon.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

I know that the greatest majority of Catholic Priests have nothing but the best intentions for those they serve. As for that, I would say that the greatest majority of all religious types have the best of intentions, but no matter our position in life, we carry with us all the good AND bad personality traits that make us up. Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI may have had very deep seated anti-semitic or pro-German sentiments, and did what they could to keep many Nazis from standing trial. Not infallible, my friend, simply human.

While you say that:

The ‘Immorality’ trials sought to destroy the reputation of Catholic religious, aimed in particular at those working in primary and secondary schools. Priests, monks, lay-brothers and nuns were accused of “perverted and immoral” lifestyles — euphemisms for homosexuality and paedophilia.

You infer through your later statement that these were fraudulent charges made up so as to make the Catholic Church look bad. In some cases you may be correct, but in light of all the millions of dollars the Catholic Church has paid out to victims of Pedophile Priests, do you REALLY believe ALL those charges were made up? Do you think that those more recent molestations are all modern, or have things like that been going on from time imemorial?

Like I said before, I personally believe that the greatest majority off all religious types do the most good to the best of their abilities, but like in EVERY aspect of life, there are aberrations.

Yes, while about 3,000,000 massacred Poles were Jewish, and the other 2.8 million were Catholic and Other, doesn't that make what Pius XII did even more egregious? Facilitating the escape from justice many of the MAIN people responsible for the extermination of 2,800,000 CATHOLIC Poles? Infallible? ?......REALLY? ? ?

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

I raelly like these funny little logos, anyways I am only posting this because it relates to the name of this thread, there was a{ Lt.Peralta who served in the Spanish military in New Spain dureing the same time peroid and zones as F. Kino}, as for some of this lateest thread as another says, "Lawd God Almaighty",gold does show up in all different types of designs,colors,Au,etc. just to bad it can"t talk.

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You seem to enjoy painting on only one half of the canvas, my friend. Let's be frank and clear about Pope Pius XII, about whom you've written:
Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI may have had very deep seated anti-semitic or pro-German sentiments, and did what they could to keep many Nazis from standing trial. Not infallible, my friend, simply human.


During the latter part of WWII, Pope Pius XII directly and personally appealled to many Latin American countries to accept the emergency passports of over 100,000 Jews who were able to obtain them through the Vatican and the US State Department. Due to the Pope's personal interventions, 13 Latin American countries permitted Jews fleeing Europe to reside in their countries legally and without time constraints, even after Nazi Germany threatened to deport all passport holders and even hunt down the Jews who had fled to Latin America.

Pope Pius XII also protested unceasingly about the deportation of Jews from outlaying European countries, most notably Hungary. When His protest was ignored, He sent telegram after telegram to the Nazi regime in Hungary. The Vatican, along with Swedish King, the Red Cross, the USA and Great Britain, finally swayed the Hungarian regent, Admiral Miklos Horthy to cease deportations in on July 8th, 1944.

Pope Pius XII also answered a request to save some 6,000 odd Jewish children in Bulgaria. Through His direct efforts, the children were sent to Palestine and their lives were thus spared the horrors of the concentration camps and the gas chambers.

Continuing on, the Roman Catholic Church officially condemned the Nazi's view on racism on 10 March 1937 with the encyclical titled "Mit Brennender Sorge" which means "With burning anxiety". This encyclical was signed by Pope Piux XI and even though it was published on 10 March 1937, it was not read until 14 March 1937, which was Palm Sunday and which has always been when the Church has the most celebrants. This particular date was chosen in order for the words from the Vatican to be heard by the largest possible number of Roman Catholics and for it to have the largest possible impact. It was read from every pulpit in every Roman Catholic Cathedral, church and chapel throughout Germany and within it, the encyclical criticized Hitler in detail, denounced Nazi crimes and roundly condemned Nazi racial policies. It has been hailed as the Roman Catholic Church's greatest single condemnation and one which has had the greatest impact in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church.

The person who drafted the Church's greatest encyclical was Eugenio Cardinal Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli, whom was elected to the Papacy on March 2nd, 1939 and became Pope Pius XII.

I have only included a few examples of what this particular Pope accomplished during His Reign as Supreme Pontiff and it is plain to see that He was not an anti-Semite nor was he a pro-German as your so-called conspiracy books would have you believe.

As for Pope Paul VI, I have absolutely no idea what you would have mentioned Him as being a possible anti-Semite or a pro-German, as it was He who stamped out all remaining traces of anti-semitism within the Church through his ceaseless labors to complete the Vatican II Council which helped to bind Roman Catholics worldwide with both our Christian and Jewish brethren.

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts. In this regard, you will become enlightened and your opinion of the world, along with yourself, may perhaps be altered, for the better as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Old Dog]

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts.

This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Thom,

Old Dog wrote

<Lamar posted, in reply to our amigo Gollum>

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts.

This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense

I very nearly did that very thing Thom, after seeing Lamar's posts concerning basic geology and lode gold deposits, which he could have easily and readily checked online what several of us were telling him (that not all lode deposits have placers) and this follows a pattern of his, that he doubts and disbelieves virtually everything that we treasure hunters and prospectors tell him. I decided not to ignore Lamar, just not to bother trying to convince him of anything much less take him along on a prospecting venture. It is apparently his "thing" to try to discredit and cast doubts upon anything and everything related to such things as the Lost Dutchman, lost Jesuit treasures, the Peralta stones and so forth. He is not alone in this little hobby of casting a shadow, and now I know it is a waste of time to try to tell him anything, even things which can be easily checked. Life is just too short for such nonsense.


I think that if anything, we ought to keep an eye on what Lamar posts, as he is so suspicious and distrustful of everything we tell him, perhaps it is because he is being dishonest with us?

your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Personally, I don't find "honesty" to be a major factor when conversing with treasure hunters. As long as the conversations are halfway respectful, and make me think or dive into the books, I am ok with Lamar. He does keep me on my toes, and I have often been impressed with his knowledge.

On the placer thingie, I think he is way off base, but few of us have always hit the mark. I won't be putting Lamar on ignore any time soon. It's my hope that he will just say "I made a boo-boo" and leave it behind him. In some of the replies to Lamar, I have seen mistakes and some questionable quotes.......meaning from questionable sources.

Really missed you and Beth at our shindig. You would have absolutely loved it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Personally, I don't find "honesty" to be a major factor when conversing with treasure hunters. As long as the conversations are halfway respectful, and make me think or dive into the books, I am ok with Lamar. He does keep me on my toes, and I have often been impressed with his knowledge.

On the placer thingie, I think he is way off base, but few of us have always hit the mark. I won't be putting Lamar on ignore any time soon. It's my hope that he will just say "I made a boo-boo" and leave it behind him. In some of the replies to Lamar, I have seen mistakes and some questionable quotes.......meaning from questionable sources.

Really missed you and Beth at our shindig. You would have absolutely loved it

Greetings Joe,

I do not have Lamar on ignore, nor am I angry with him - just finally got it through my thick skull that being our resident professional skeptic is his "thing" and his level of disbelief extends even to things which he could check in a moment. I do have to wonder about the honesty of a person who is SO doubtful of every statement.

I don't pretend to have never made a mistake in a post, nor to have a problem with folks who doubt what I may say - after all some folks say I am a born liar; but in our recent example it was not simply words that I stated which were in doubt. I just don't wish to waste time typing, looking things up and re-typing it, for a person who simply doesn't believe anything I could post. It is almost like a BB case in reverse. BB practically demanded that we believe every word he posted, Lamar simply doesn't believe any word some of us post.

I sure wish we could have attended, considering how the weather worked against our getting much done here it probably wouldn't have made much difference in getting our little "project" done. As you aptly pointed out, life is short and none of us are getting any younger, who knows how many more such opportunities will be?
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense.

By all means, please feel free to do so if your conscious so dictates, my friend, however, before you do, you may wish to be aware that like the double edged sword, the IGNORE button cuts both ways.

Also, you may wish to know that what Gollum and myself are doing is commonly referred to as *bantering*. He is taking my replies for whatever they are worth as I am with his. I am fairly certain that Gollum with come back with some documentation about the involvement of the Church in aiding the Nazis, etc.

Also, the comment which seemed to infuriate you was done so in response to Gollums' prior remark that "I read read read read." In short, we are verbally sparring with one another,and if this type of activity does not suit your fancy then by all means please use the IGNORE button without further hesitation, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Old Dog]

HOLA amigo Thom,

I think that if anything, we ought to keep an eye on what Lamar posts, as he is so suspicious and distrustful of everything we tell him, perhaps it is because he is being dishonest with us?

your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Roy,
I agree with both you and Joe.
for another reason I will leave things as they are, with irritation as my motive for now.

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Banter is correct. A spirited back and forth.

Whatever else Pius XII did, he directly facilitated the flights from justice of MANY Nazi war criminals, who were directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent civilians. Your argument is like saying "Maybe that Priest did molest those kids, but man he gave a great sermon!" One does not expiate the other.

I mention Pope Paul VI, because prior to being a Pope, he was called Bishop Montini. He was head of the Vatican's Office of Extraordinary Affairs. He was Father Dragunovic's immediate supervisor in the extrications of the Comandants of Sobibor (299,000 murdered), Treblinka (900,000 murdered), and Drancy (this was the main deportation camp, where people were retransported to different extermination camps) Concentration Camps.

.............and what I said was "MAY HAVE" regarding any anti-semitic feelings. You COMPLETELY missed the point because I also said they may have had very "PRO-GERMAN" feelings as well. I don't personally know either of them, and couldn't tell you a thing about how they felt. I can only judge by what we KNOW THEY DID! THEY FACILITATED THE FLIGHTS FROM JUSTICE MANY NAZIS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTERMINATIONS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! INFALLIBLE? I THINK NOT!

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I believe you are wrong about Paul VI (Giovanni Battista Montini), who was Pope of the Roman Catholic Church from 1963 to 1978. His evolvement with the Nazis and World War II consisted of this:

"From 1923 to 1939 Montini served in the Papal Secretariat of State, where, after 1930, he worked closely with Eugenic Pacelli, the future Pius XII (1939-58), who was then Pius XI's (1922-39) secretary of state. At the same time, in his role as adviser to the University Federation of Catholic Action, Montini took a rather critical position regarding the fascist regime and befriended a number of antifascists including Alcide De Gasperi and Aldo Moro both of whom would be (future Christian Democratic prime ministers in postwar Italy). In 1937 Montini was appointed undersecretary of state and retained that position after Pius XII's election in 1939. During World War II Montini was charged with the care of Allied diplomats confined within the Vatican, and in that post he gained their respect and appreciation. He also played a significant role in the care of the many refugees who crowded into the confines of the Vatican and the papal residence of Castel Gandolfo, outside of Rome, during that period."

My source is: Europe since 1945: An Encyclopedia. Volume: 2.

Perhaps further research is needed by everyone on this subject.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum:
You wrote;
Lamar,

Banter is correct. A spirited back and forth.

Whatever else Pius XII did, he directly facilitated the flights from justice of MANY Nazi war criminals, who were directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent civilians. Your argument is like saying "Maybe that Priest did molest those kids, but man he gave a great sermon!" One does not expiate the other.

I mention Pope Paul VI, because prior to being a Pope, he was called Bishop Montini. He was head of the Vatican's Office of Extraordinary Affairs. He was Father Dragunovic's immediate supervisor in the extrications of the Comandants of Sobibor (299,000 murdered), Treblinka (900,000 murdered), and Drancy (this was the main deportation camp, where people were retransported to different extermination camps) Concentration Camps.

.............and what I said was "MAY HAVE" regarding any anti-semitic feelings. You COMPLETELY missed the point because I also said they may have had very "PRO-GERMAN" feelings as well. I don't personally know either of them, and couldn't tell you a thing about how they felt. I can only judge by what we KNOW THEY DID! THEY FACILITATED THE FLIGHTS FROM JUSTICE MANY NAZIS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTERMINATIONS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! INFALLIBLE? I THINK NOT!

Once again, I am only taking into account the actions of the POPE not the person whom He was before becoming Pope, nor the person whom He was after stepping down from the throne of Christ, if He so chose to abdicate.

Also, as a little known and very often glossed over fact, Adolph Hitler was a lifelong Roman Catholic, as were many in his regime. In light of this, the Roman Catholic Church has ABSOLUTELY NO RECOURSE other than to pray for the redemption of those people. The absolution and redemption of all sins is promised to us by Our Lord in the Bible, my friend and as such, we cannot pick and choose whom will ascend into Heaven and whom shall not.

The Roman Catholic Church has accquired the stance that ALL executions are wrong, my friend, for any reason whatsoever. In light of this, the Roman Catholic Church has an obligation to aid and assist any and all of her congregation whom may be faced with the death penalty in the firm and unwavering hope of redemption.

Please understand that as an entity, the Roman Catholic Church has never approved of one human killing another, in strict adherence to the 5th Commandment, non occides (no murder[or kill]). What various clergy may have actually said and done in the past in regards to this Commandment is besides the point, as the point is that a religious organization, the Roman Catholic Church has always held the belief consistent with the word of God as found in Deuteronomy 5:17.

The Roman Catholic Church, as a religious organization, condemned the Nazi party of Germany. What some members may have, or may not have, done as individual clergy members is a separate issue and as such, is not part of my original statement. I stated, in jest, that basically the only person on Earth who is infallible is the Pope and now you are dragging out what this Bishop did, or what that Cardinal stated, etc. This is not an issue because it is not a part of my statement. I stated that only the Pope is infallible, and thus far no one has ever been able to provide evidence that ANY Pope supported the policies held by the Nazis.

I do hope this clarifies my stance somewhat and I also hope that this statement serves to end the discussion on Popes, infallibility, Nazis, and culpability.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar and Mike,

I doubt any thinking person believes any man is infallible, including the Pope's. Many of them have been somewhat senile and in poor health. That is a direct result of how the new Pope's are chosen.

Pius XII tried to do what he believed was the right thing, for the Church and the world. It's easy to look back in history and judge it by what is known today. Perhaps he was an evil man, and perhaps he felt he had to straddle the fence on many issues. As a fallible man, he was bound to come down on the wrong side occasionally.

I would imagine to judge Pius XII, you would need to have walked in his shoes. You might have chosen different paths, and you might have taken the same ones he did.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend I am in agreement with you on this. Papal infallibilty is subject to highly defined doctrines and dogma, and to the best of my knowledge, the only time in recent history that a Pope exercised the right of Ex Cathedra was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII, when He difined the assumption of Mary. The time before that was in 1854 when Pope Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception. Looking at the dates we can see that the Vatican exercises the right of Ex Cathedra about once every 100 years or less. In all actuality the Papacy exercised Ex Cathedra only 7 times during the existence of the Church, therefore the issue of Papal infallibility should not be an issue at all.

Most people tend to think that the sitting Pope is infallible in thought and deed from the moment He ascends the Throne of St. Peter until death or abdication, but this is completely untrue. The entire theology behind Papal infallibilty is beyond the scope of this forum, therefore I urge all forum members whom are interested in learning more about Papal infallibility to go to this website:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
Your friend;
LAMAR