The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I hope to visit you sometime, and the chance of a visit to your library is a very large cherry on top!"

When the snow lasts just a little too long, you and Beth are more than welcome to pay us a visit. There is a nice recliner in my office and you can read anything that strikes your fancy. If that gets a little too close/quiet for you, there are four recliners in the front room.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

<Begin WHINE>
Quiet? What is that? (typed as yet another train thunders into Edgemont rail yard, horns blaring, brakes screeching and railcars crashing together) I do seem to remember it once, but the memory of silence has largely faded since coming here!
</End WHINE>
Roy

PS - Four recliners? By God, Joe I am becoming more and more convinced that you DO know how to live right!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO sniff and here I always thought that you and Beth were renovating a lonely line cabin up in the Mt's.

As for those make up trains, sigh. during the depression we lived with my grandfather in Tracy, Calif. His cabinet shop was right next to the RR make up yard sigh.

I can still hear them making up trains all night long. the engine taking up the slack, forward and backwards, was NOISY, each car would independently go bang, clank all of the way down the line for perhaps 80 cars.

I FEEL FOR YOU !

Don Jose de La Mancha (where the only sound is the air conditioner)

 

[Old Dog]

Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote

ORO sniff and here I always thought that you and Beth were renovating a lonely line cabin up in the Mt's.

As for those make up trains, sigh. during the depression we lived with my grandfather in Tracy, Calif. His cabinet shop was right next to the RR make up yard sigh.

I can still hear them making up trains all night long. the engine taking up the slack, forward and backwards, was NOISY, each car would independently go bang, clank all of the way down the line for perhaps 80 cars.

I FEEL FOR YOU !

Don Jose de La Mancha (where the only sound is the air conditioner)

HOLA amigo and gracias for the empathy - still trying to get used to the constant racket here, but slowly going deaf so it will work out one way or the other! (heh heh) Sorry for not keeping you posted with our peripatetic wanderings too. Yes we were building a cabin in the hills in SE Arizona, <about six miles as the crow flies from the old Commonwealth mine near Pearce> right up until developers bought up all the land on all four sides of ours (we had bought an old homestead with no buildings remaining, surrounded by two large cattle ranches) and the utility poles and new homes started springing up at an amazing rate. We moved to SW S Dakota, actually to a piece of land we owned some years ago with the idea we could put up a small home here while advertising the AZ land for sale, then be able to sell this as well and have more for the war chest to buy the place they cannot crowd in on. As usual everything is taking far longer than planned or hoped. I still hope to return to AZ but would "settle" for a secluded place even here in the land of cold. I don't hate people, just hate living so danged CLOSE to them.

Line cabins - hoo boy what sheer comfort amigo, nothing quite like living "close to nature" especially when that Wyoming wind decides to let you have it. Even the leaky, drafty, poorly insulated camper is considerably more comfortable!

You mentioned an air conditioner - such things <like our amigo Joe's mention of recliners> seem like it must be a far more comfortable life, or at least life-style. Having had no real "roof" over our heads for over four years, at our age it seems to be getting harder and harder to "tough it out" even for this relatively short period. Beth and I hardly ever do things the way most folks do though, so it is our own doing - please ignore my continual whining and griping, for no one forced us into this situation. If things work out, we will be getting that home in the 'rub al khali' of our southwest, without going into debt.

My sincere apologies to our readers for the very far off-topic drift there, just been a rather bad week.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Line cabins - hoo boy what sheer comfort amigo, nothing quite like living "close to nature" especially when that Wyoming wind decides to let you have it. Even the leaky, drafty, poorly insulated camper is considerably more comfortable!

Boy do you have that right!
That was one of the things that made me start my own business.
I got awfuly tired of the weather coming in doors.

 

[Oroblanco]

Old Dog wrote
[quote]I got awfuly tired of the weather coming in doors.
[/quote[

ROFL Oh my Thom now I KNOW you are "old school" and that you know exactly what a line cabin is! Thanks for that one!
Roy

 

[ghostdog]

Oro-I think your right, thas how I read it, sometimes when I"m tired I dont think I just write.
Cubfan and Catus,thanks for your imputs, I will buy some other books to read to get different insights.adios,for now

 

[lamar]

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'


Honestly I do not wish to get drawn into a senseless and essentially worthless, argument. Maybe the Jesuits were building a boat and maybe they weren't, however it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand and I neither have the time nor the desire to put forth the research effort to confirm or deny the allegations at this time. Also, I typically do not like to answer any questions until I am reasonably sure that I have all of the facts in hand. At this time I am in the middle of a fairly large project, therefore the Jesuit fleet question will have to remain on the back burner until further notice. Thank you for all consideration, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

There is no maybe, in this case. The details of the building of the boat/ship are well documented. There are times when it is best to admit your mistake and move on to something else. I know that well, because I make more than my share of mistakes.

On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine. It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located. I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.

I am always impressed with your knowledge, but we all make mistakes.......more as we get older.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote to our friend Lamar,

On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine. It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located. I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.

In support of this statement, here is an extract, quote

The epithermal veins <in AZ gold deposits> have formed no placers of economic importance.

<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp15>
and

It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona. The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.
When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it."

<Ibid, pp 244>

So Lamar my friend does this help to sway your view, as to lode gold deposits always having placers? There are other sources as well to support our contention that gold lode deposits do NOT always have a placer associated, just as not all placers can be traced to source lodes.

Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'


Honestly I do not wish to get drawn into a senseless and essentially worthless, argument. Maybe the Jesuits were building a boat and maybe they weren't, however it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand and I neither have the time nor the desire to put forth the research effort to confirm or deny the allegations at this time. Also, I typically do not like to answer any questions until I am reasonably sure that I have all of the facts in hand. At this time I am in the middle of a fairly large project, therefore the Jesuit fleet question will have to remain on the back burner until further notice. Thank you for all consideration, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to take the time and try to ridicule me regarding two subjects about which you knew nothing?

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to try and defame Father Ernest Burrus SJ; one of the most renowned Jesuit Historians of the Order in the New World?

What makes it senseless and worthless? Could it be the fact that you (yet again) stuck your foot in your mouth, and for whatever reason (as usual) choose to ignore it rather than admitting weakness? As many times as we have gone round and round, have you EVER known me to post information (referenced information) that was not accurate? I know I have posted things that I can't give conclusive proof for (personal confidences, etc), but when I do that I state openly and freely what I can and cannot publicly post.

Let's see.....what comes next? Could it be feigning hurt feelings, so you can once again try to redirect the subject? How many times have you done that? I mean really! We have gotten along so well in the past, even though we passionately disagreed about a subject. The main reason I keep pushing this is because your attempted offhand slight kind of took me by surprise.

Patiently waiting-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Please sit tight and keep holding onto what you got, my friend. I am in the middle of something else at the moment, and trust me, I have not forgotten about your queries. And so, allow me to finish what I am doing and thus I will be able to return to the discussion of boats, ownerships, etc. Thank you for your patience.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco posted a question for Lamar,

Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,

And Lamar replied

Please disregard the question, it was pointless and useless as I already have my answer.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Dear Gollum;
Please sit tight and keep holding onto what you got, my friend. I am in the middle of something else at the moment, and trust me, I have not forgotten about your queries. And so, allow me to finish what I am doing and thus I will be able to return to the discussion of boats, ownerships, etc. Thank you for your patience.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

Whats the matter? Waiting on an email from the Brothers? HAHAHA All you have to do is check out the book I quoted from:

"Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ.

His book is a translated compilation of the diarios of Kino, Manje, Atondo, Salvatierra, and a few more. My quotes are exact and specific, omitting only unimportant information.

In case you think that the publisher may be questionable:

"Rome: Jesuit Historical Institute. 1971. 793pp. "

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

re:boat , Groupo,I would like to add just a little about the boat building thread as I have the time, Kino wanted to build a bark at Caborca, carry it in pieces with oxen and mules and put it together on the shores of the Gulf of Calif, to further explore the Gulf. The trunk of a Cottonwood tree was cut 38 feet long for the keel from stern to prow not counting the bows and the stern posts which would be 18 cubits. Manje was to be his partner. For what ever reason a Father Munoz put a stop to the boat building project..from my end notes

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblaco;
You stated:
So Lamar my friend does this help to sway your view, as to lode gold deposits always having placers? There are other sources as well to support our contention that gold lode deposits do NOT always have a placer associated, just as not all placers can be traced to source lodes.

If you will read my answer carefully on the subject, you will realize that sometimes lode deposits may not have associated placers and there exists only 3 possibilities for this cause.

1) The lode deposit which struck the surface is either very old or is situated in a zone where there exists a high level or errosion, or both. If the lode strike is ancient, then the placers may have been swept far away from the lode strike. Some examples of this are glacial movements and areas of high rainfall.
2)The lode deposit is very young and hasn't had time to shed it's superficial minerals. This can also occur in areas which suffer from high erroison. A good example of this type of deposit would be one which was uncovered after a recent earthquake or plate shift.
3) Prospectors had already located and recovered the placers. This is always a real possibility and which the lode searcher should be aware of.

Epithermal is the contraction of two Greek words, EPI meaning UPPER an THERMAL meaning HOT. THerefore the two words together stand for UPPER HOT, which adaquately describes what an epithermal deposit is, my friend. Epithermal gold deposits are formed at shallow depths of within 2 miles of the surface in the temperature range of 50C to 200C, and always in the periphery of volcanic activity.

The epithermal deposits in Arizona and Nevada were formed during the Phanerozoic era, which happens to be the era we are currently in, therefore one may assume these deposits to be youthful, therefore the existence of substantial amounts of placer deposits would be minimal at best.

Now, perhaps some wish to believe that gold sometimes falls from the sky and just appears on the surface of the Earth without any rhyme or reason however I think differently on the subject.

To sum all of this up succulently, if a lode strike has reached the surface of the Earth (it's not known as a strike if it hasn't by the way) for any extended period of time, then there will be associated placer deposits, however the placers are subject to movement, sometimes minor and sometimes major. I do hope this clarifies my statement to the clarity of fine glass, as I am growing weary of discussing basic geology over and over.

And you also queried:
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,


All I can say is that you would need to be able to present some very good physical evidence in order for my opinion to be swayed.
Your friend;
LAMAR



Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco[/color]

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to take the time and try to ridicule me regarding two subjects about which you knew nothing?

I was not attempting to ridicule you, my friend, merely rein in some of your unbridled enthusiasms. As we are all aware, at times you tend to paint the Jesuits in dark colors, which as you may have learned by now, is totally unacceptable. If you make an honest effort to redeem yourself in the future then I shall overlook your faux pas thus far, my friend.

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to try and defame Father Ernest Burrus SJ; one of the most renowned Jesuit Historians of the Order in the New World?

Even though Fr. Burrus SI, was a Roman Catholic priest, as far as I am aware he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are and his works are subjected to misinterpretations and erronous conclusions due to the lack of materials. This does not mean that a person is defaming another, merely that one is asking to be allowed ample time to study the relevant facts of the issue at hand, my friend. After all, the heretic Gallileo was not accquitted in a day. Again, these things take time and in light of this, patience really is a virtue.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon Lamar mi buddy ---> join me?
One thing that puzzles me is that you posted -->

" he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By this am I to assume that the Pope is not human, immortal, and is fallible?
***************************************************************

Speaking of the Pope, what is your opinion of the 'Papal Indulgences'?


As for all veins forming placers, obviously a very general statement. What happens when a huge rockslide happens this winter that exposes a
here-to-fore hidden vein of Hi grade Gold? For many centuries there will be NO appreciable placer formed.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
You enquired:
good afternoon Lamar mi buddy ---> join me?
One thing that puzzles me is that you posted -->

" he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By this am I to assume that the Pope is not human, immortal, and is fallible?
***************************************************************

Speaking of the Pope, what is your opinion of the 'Papal Indulgences'?


As for all veins forming placers, obviously a very general statement. What happens when a huge rockslide happens this winter that exposes a
here-to-fore hidden vein of Hi grade Gold? For many centuries there will be NO appreciable placer formed.

Don Jose de La Mancha
It all harkens back to the age-old discussion of whether the Pope is infallible or not, however this is most decidedly not the forum to be discussing this particular issue, my friend. Most conservative Catholics take the position that the Pope is in fact Jesus' Vicar on Earth and therefore is infallible in word and deed and that's about as far as I am willing to go with that point. This particular debate has been used by Protestant Christians as a point of contention in their spread of anti-Catholicism for centuries and it's a very old and worn out argument and one which I refuse to become a party to.

As far as Papal indulgences are concerned, once again I can only speak from my own point of view on the subject. I am not sure of your own knowledge of indulgences and how indulgences are viewed by the Roman Catholic church. Many people seem to think that an indulgence forgives a person of sin, however this is far from the truth. The sin itself can only be absolved through the rite of Confession to a Roman Catholic priest, however the temporal punishment for that sin remains and this is where the partial, or full indulgence comes into the picture.

Once again, may people are confused about indulgences and they seem to think that only certain indulgences are Papal, whereas in truth ALL indulgences are Papal. There exists both partial and plenary, or full, indulgences. Granting indulgences came under fire from Martin Luther during the Protestant Reformation, mostly due to alledged abuses and a general misunderstanding of indulgences. These issues have long since been resolved, however in truth most modern Roman Catholics do not have firm grasp of indulgences, their history and the purpose which they serve. As a traditional Roman Catholic I firmly and fully believe in indulgences and the salvation which they promise. Once more, indulgences were used as a topic in order to spread anti-Catholic sentiments by early Protestant Christians and that's about all I am willing to state on that subject, my friend.

As far as a storm uncovering a vein of ore, yes there will be no appreciable associated placer deposits, not only for centuries but most likely for several millenia. We must always bear in mind that our Earth uses a clock which is much older and slower than our own and a few hundred years in less than an eyeblink when one considers the age of our Earth is 4.5 BILLION years old.
Your friend;
LAMAR