The Peralta Stones

[Cubfan64]

Just to echo EE THr's last post, if you take a look at his enhanced copy and compare it to the black and white drawing SH had as an insert in his first post with the carving, you should be able to see the almost identical "pathway" they each have. I see the different carvings the same way you do EE Th'r - there are certainly some differences, but there are an awful lot of similarities.

I really like that last quote from Jake Page that you posted Joe - I could very easily convince myself that the entire spiral/maze/labyrinth carvings are a direct result of that tribes origin legend.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

"It's embarrasing to hear stories about white pointy-heads lecturing lowly savages about themselves, isn't it?"

If I quote White opinions of the Red Man's history, it's only from people that I know spent many years with the people they were researching. In many cases, living with them. Is that ideal? No. Since many of the Native Americans had no written language, and once they learned to write were to busy trying to survive in the white man's world, it's only in more recent times we get their first hand written history, in their own writings.

Most modern-day Native American historians do not write about the "lowly savages". To the contrary, they like and respect the friends they write about. In that vein, they treat the verbal history they are given with much respect. In the early days of white/Indian conflict, it was a different matter altogether.

Not all of us can live with and among Native Americans. If we are to understand their past and where they are going today, we have to rely on the ethnographers who did spend that kind of time with the elders to help us acquire that understanding.

In my own research into Native American histories and cultures, I have no problem tipping my hat to the giants over whose shoulders I peek. At the same time, I am thankful to the elders who realized the importance of getting their history in writing......from their perspective.

I have "Book Of The Hopi", as well as two copies of "Brave Are My People" by Mr. Waters. One of the books is for reading, and the other is signed by Frank, as well as Vine Deloria, Jr., which is a very rare find. I believe Frank Waters was part Cheyenne.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... Most modern-day Native American historians do not write about the "lowly savages". To the contrary, they like and respect the friends they write about. ....

Of course they do. When Americans conquer people, we tend to feel compassionate about our vanquished. Few other conquerors bother. Let's hope we fare so well in the future, because like William Munny said, "We all have it coming, Kid".

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

"Of course they do. When Americans conquer people, we tend to feel compassionate about our vanquished. Few other conquerors bother. Let's hope we fare so well in the future, because like William Munny said, "We all have it coming, Kid"."

That is very true. The Native American's were a good example of what you have just written. In reality, you need look no farther than the Chippewa (Ojibwa) history. In the late 1600's they were at constant war with the Fox Indians......among others. They eventually drove that tribe out of their homeland of Northern Wisconsin and forced them to seek protection with the Sauk in lower Michigan.

The Sioux were next, and they drove them out of their tribal homeland. The Iroquois were next to be....relocated by the Chippewa/Ojibwa. The Iroquois had obtained their land in the same manner as the Ojibwa, and were driven from the peninsula between Lake Erie and Lake Huron.

The history of the Apache is similar, both being forced out of land that they occupied, and forcing others out of their homelands.

This type of thing is still going on to this day around the world. I imagine it will go on long after we are dust.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

one man's savages is a nother man's tribeable culture .. where too hell do you see any savages any where in the American tribeable nations ..

i dont buy any BS from the chruch and i want to see anyone name any savage act that was done by any tribe...

just because they cut peoples hearts out that dose not make them savages ,,, it shows they have a diffrent under standing of life and death and culture then we do .. who are we to judge them .. we did not even under stand their gods or way of life in many cases we still dont ..

i dont see it the same way as the modern world dose .. i feel thouse gods and culture were past down threw thousands of years and long before we came on to the face of the earth and into their world .. to them would we look any diffrent .. we steal their land .. we kill them and take what we wanted .. we did far more then we wanted to talk about and most things we did never made it into any histroy book ...

no one tribe is the oldest .. the aceint ones were un named for a reason .. ..

and i under stand the Apache point of veiw .. its the same for the mohawk ...the tribes had conflect for hunderds of years only to have the white man show up and kill the other tribe what was left ...the mohawk were demons to some of the other tribes .. yet the same can be said for tribes like the Apache out west where is the diffrence .. there is none .. the only real and logic diffrence was it did not fit our needs when the time came ...

and i do gree with some of joe's insight ..as well as ..SF.


the point here is i out right do not beleive the native Americans had anything to do with these drawings ...

 

[EE THr]

BB---

OK, on the X or cross, you're talking about where the wall lines cross each other, then. I thought you meant some additional marking within the carvings.


Classical Labyrinth
First appeared on coins around 430 BC


All---

The above design appears on http://www.philipcoppens.com/crete_labyrinth.html,
which also states, "The earliest reference to a labyrinth was Egyptian in origin and appears in the 5th century by Herodotus, describing the Egyptian labyrinth. The link between that structure and Crete was done in the following centuries by Diodorus and Pliny, who stated that Daidalos had learned of the labyrinth design in Egypt."

The Egyptian reference also brings into play the idea that labyrinths originally pertained to underground burial chambers and tunnels.

These days, the word "catacombs" is used to signify underground tunnels, mazes, or labyrinths, which were built for burials.

Catacombs---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/catacombs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb

This may broaden the range of possible meanings of somehiker's rock carving.

The one concept which is contained in all of the different possible origins and meanings is that of underground passageways, whether natural or manmade, and of complex configuration to at least some extent.

And then there is the possible philosophical meaning, and also it could possibly be used as a symbol to identify some group of people.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Any chance you could post your picture of the artifact without the other pictures at the bottom of the design??

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

BB---

OK, on the X or cross, you're talking about where the wall lines cross each other, then. I thought you meant some additional marking within the carvings.



Classical Labyrinth
First appeared on coins around 430 BC


All---

The above design appears on http://www.philipcoppens.com/crete_labyrinth.html,
which also states, "The earliest reference to a labyrinth was Egyptian in origin and appears in the 5th century by Herodotus, describing the Egyptian labyrinth. The link between that structure and Crete was done in the following centuries by Diodorus and Pliny, who stated that Daidalos had learned of the labyrinth design in Egypt."

The Egyptian reference also brings into play the idea that labyrinths originally pertained to underground burial chambers and tunnels.

These days, the word "catacombs" is used to signify underground tunnels, mazes, or labyrinths, which were built for burials.

Catacombs---
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/catacombs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb

This may broaden the range of possible meanings of somehiker's rock carving.

The one concept which is contained in all of the different possible origins and meanings is that of underground passageways, whether natural or manmade, and of complex configuration to at least some extent.

And then there is the possible philosophical meaning, and also it could possibly be used as a symbol to identify some group of people.

EE THr - this is definitely an interesting discussion since SH posted his photo and lots of good input from a number of different people. That said, you're welcome to listen to BB if you choose to, but most of us have him on ignore now for good reason. If you do listen to him, I'm sure he already has completely "deciphered" the meaning of the carving beyond a shadow of doubt and it shouldn't be long before the Jesuits, Sinclair and the Pope are all woven into the explanation.

Just saying I'd hate for this interesting thread to digress too much

 

[EE THr]

Cubfan64---

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, and I can't really disagree. I've had him on Ignore for quite awhile, also. But once in awhile I just gotta take a peek, ya know? My bad.

I would sure like to know who thought it so important to carve that particular symbol in stone in the various countries it appears. Especially at somehiker's site.

 

[Furness]

Hi SH,

I've also found it interesting, and the reason and use for them intriguing, i don't have a great deal to add, but i did find this site that has a lot more information on them including a great number of photos of the various designs and some of the various theories, without being biased in any way leaving the reader to make his own conclusions, if anyones interested, there are quite a few pages and makes an interesting read,

http://www.labyrinths.net/introduction1.html

John

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Any chance you could post your picture of the artifact without the other pictures at the bottom of the design??

Thanks,

Joe

This is the snap from the video,before I enhanced the contrast,did any colour correction,or added the insets .
No man or archway,though.There may be other markings obscured by lichen,but nothing recognizable as man made.
I haven't come across any monuments or markers in the immediate area,and the nearest (maybe) trail is down below and a little ways away.

Good synopsis of the pre-european history of native conflict.Many would like to be able to rewrite history and make believe that war for land,slavery and genocide were imported by the white man.

John: Thanks for the link.Seems to be down right now,but I'll try again later.

Regards:SH.

 

[EE THr]

I don't know what the measurements are in that photo above, but right off hand I'd say that's a lot of lichen growth.

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichenometry

 

[coazon de oro]

Somehiker,

I have found that the goal or center of the modern classical labyrinth is where two ley lines cross, ( found by dowsing ) or where there is water underneath. There are some that are made to be walked on, and there are other small ones that are meant to be followed with your finger, as prayer or meditation.

The entrance to the ones meant to be walked on, at least the ones from the Viking age, was oriented to the summer solstice sunset. I have not checked on others, nor those labyrinths with more than one entrance.

Mayan labyrinths found in southern Mexico, Guatemala, and north of Belize, were mostly built in a period of 250 to 900 A.D. Some have been found underground with water in the center, and others under water.

Your finding could be one meant to be traced by finger, making it harder to age by lichen growth alone, or it could be a sign of an underground labyrinth with the entrance below somewhere. Nentvig's sketch may suggest this.

With the legends of the Zuni, and the underworld, Silent Hunter could shed some light on this, or help you find a possible entrance, as he has a good eye for man altered rocks. This may be where his barefoot trail leads.

My apologies to Gollom for being off topic, we have gone from romancing the stones, to fingering the labyrinth!

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[EE THr]

No man or archway,though.There may be other markings obscured by lichen,but nothing recognizable as man made.

That just seems like a very unusual carving to find out in the middle of nothing else.

It kind of reminds me of this---

Many years ago, there was a new restaurant that some of the people at work were talking about from time-to-time. One day another guy and I were driving back to the shop together, and he pointed out where it was. I looked where he pointed, but there was nothing anywhere around, except a big parking lot.

So I said, "but where's the restaurant?" It was underground, and the only thing that showed above ground looked like a concrete telephone booth! The back of it was slanted at the angle of a staircase. As you opened the door, you immediately went down the stairs.

Otherwise it looked like there was nothing of any interest around there at all. I guess there had to be air entrance and exhaust vents somewhere, but I didn't notice them. Strange. I never did go there though. I soon forgot all about it.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. For a restaurant that's bad.

But if someone really wanted to hide something, it would be good.

 

[somehiker]

EE:
I would estimate the diameter of the carving at about 15-20",based on the height of some brush in the larger frame which appears to be about knee high.I usually do these panoramics with the video cam set at half zoom.The photo is also 400 percent zoomed from the video frame itself.There are stone ruins in the area as well,though nothing within about a hundred yards or so of this carving.
There were other ruins discovered,not far off,a few years ago by other hikers that were unknown to the FS until then.Those ruins appeared to have been untouched by souvenir collectors,with many artifacts in plain view.

But if someone really wanted to hide something, it would be good.
I've said that myself,on more than one occasion,about these mountains.

Homar:

My apologies to Gollom for being off topic, we have gone from romancing the stones, to fingering the labyrinth!
I don't think that Mike would take offence,since he has expressed some curiosity about other photos that I have taken in this same area.Keep in mind that the stones may have been made by someone who had also developed an interest in these mountains and their human history.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Spirals were used to depict water by many Native Americans. Some actually worshiped water. This place combines two of their beliefs, water and the entry into the surface world:

There are, I believe, three cliff dwellings on the walls of the opening. They were not used for permanent residences, but provided temporary shelter for pilgrimages. On the walls of this sacred site, there are pictographs. One is an upside-down black heart. Another is a spiral design.......Sipapu or Water? The Native Americans believe it is a Sipapu.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

cactusjumper---

The spiral does have one attribute of the modern definition of a labyrinth, in that it only has a single path.

I suppose that if someone wanted to depict the original concept, whatever it might have been, but forgot exactly how to configure the Classical Labyrinth, they might just make a spiral instead. It appears there were many who knew whatever it was that the spiral represented, because they were made in so many locations.

Here is a labyrinth variation, in a rock pecking in Capo di Ponte, Val Camonica, Italy---

Photo by Luca Giareli, CC-BY-SA 3.0.
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth

This variation has two entrances, and five possible paths. Either it means something different, or they forgot how to draw the original. Or maybe this is the original. It looks a lot like American Indians on there, too.

 

[somehiker]

Nice photo of Montezuma's Well,Joe.
Not far from Montezuma's Castle and just around the corner from the kind of place where any one of us could strike it rich,or lose it all.
Of course the Sinagua structures pre-date the casino by a few hundred years,give or take a couple.I've viewed both from the ground and somewhere about 4,000 ft.I've flown most of the Verde Valley and the ruin sites are continuous from the north end of Scottsdale (SDL) to and beyond Sedona (SEZ) well into Utah.A visit to the castle is well worth the time.Some of the stonework and irrigation work that occupies the valley floor below,once studied with the helpful narrative of one of the guides, can be also found within the Sups.As can identical masonry such as the Peter's Canyon Cliff/Cave dwelling and the Tonto National Monument."Montezuma's Castles" can be found in a broad range of territory,from the Four Corners area southward towards Moctezuma's Metropolis itself.Spirals and many other kinds of rock carvings/illustrations are common,as are many beliefs and customs.
Some of the cliff dwellings in Mexico are still inhabited by the descendants of the original builders,if my memory serves me well.I would imagine that some of their oral history would fascinate any of us.
Seems to me that to be a spiral,a line must circle in one direction only,whereas to be a labyrinth,the path must wind both clockwise and anticlockwise.A spiral could perhaps be a simple depiction of a whirlpool in a river.It could also be something that many with keen eyesight and a night sky free of pollution may have observed in the heavens above.Supernovas,meteors and cometary bodies also were subjects for many an artist over time,or so I have been told.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Twisted Fork]

Wayne,

Any chance you could post your picture of the artifact without the other pictures at the bottom of the design??

Thanks,

Joe

This is the snap from the video,before I enhanced the contrast,did any colour correction,or added the insets .
No man or archway,though.There may be other markings obscured by lichen,but nothing recognizable as man made.
I haven't come across any monuments or markers in the immediate area,and the nearest (maybe) trail is down below and a little ways away.

Good synopsis of the pre-european history of native conflict.Many would like to be able to rewrite history and make believe that war for land,slavery and genocide were imported by the white man.

John: Thanks for the link.Seems to be down right now,but I'll try again later.

Regards:SH.

Reminds me of the tree of life at first glance.........

 

[somehiker]

Does the tree of life come with a trunk,Twisted?
Otherwise it would be "the Bush of Life",wouldn't it?
Just kiddin
Regards:SH.