The Peralta Stones

[Springfield]

Well, somehiker, the labyrinth carving you posted has been found in a number of places around the world and 'seems' to be the inspiration for the Native American 'Man in the Maze' designs that appear on various Southwest jewelry pieces, beltbuckles, baskets, etc.

The design is associated with ancient Crete and is said to represent the labyrinth beneath King Minos' palace - you know, the place where that badass Minotaur was kept. Many old Greek coins display the maze on one side. So, the question that comes to my mind is not so much that the carving was created by ancient visitors from across the globe (but is an intriguing idea not to be dismissed), but that it possibly represents a reference to some underground tunnel(s). Another thing to consider is the symbol's link to the Hopi cosmology, which is rife with references to the underworld, 'ant people', etc. Of course, any treasure hunter worth his salt will focus on the underground tunnel thingy, maybe rightfully so. It would be interesting to hear more about your find - it's a good 'un.

 

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[EE THr]

I looks like I was wrong when I said it was "too sophisticated" for (early) Native Americans.



I hadn't seen photos of mazes on rock, not counting the spirals. The information available on the Internet says that in the past, it was considered wrong to display their maze, other than under certain conditions, so maybe that's why. But now days it is used openly.

Their maze is different. But like Springfield says, the one in your photo may have originally inspired theirs. Or would it be the other way around?

Springfield---where else in the World have these been found?

 

[Springfield]

.... Springfield---where else in the World have these been found?

All over the Mediterranean countries for sure and also in England I think. Maybe elsewhere too, but I'm not sure. Seems to me that these carvings are a lot more complicated and precise than the NA stuff we see all over the southwest. This could mean that the old world people were here a long time ago, or that someone copied the design much more recently. I've found some OLD precise concentric circle carvings here in SW New Mexico in strategic locations within an 'important' canyon - very unlike the usual stuff. Personally, I believe that some of these anomalies are pre-Anasazi.

 

[EE THr]

Springfield & somehiker---

I get what you're saying. Precision doesn't seem to have been of utmost importance in the early American Indian rock peckings. Apparently they felt they were getting their point across well enough in most cases, without a necessity for being highly accurate in that way.

I think there was an ancient presence in the Americas, alright. People got around a lot better back then than the mainstream historians and archaeologists give them credit for.

In searching for "King Minos labyrinth," it turned up lots of European examples. Some were similar to somehiker's drawing and photo, and some varied far from it, even square ones.

Some claim that the King Minos palace, itself, was the legendary labyrinth, rather than tunnels below it, because of it's maze-like floorplan. Others say that the actual labyrinth is located near a different palace, at Gortyn, and is an underground limestone quarry, as shown in the middle of this page---
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...es-original-site-ancient-Greek-Labyrinth.html
And on this: http://www.philipcoppens.com/crete_labyrinth.html
Although the above page is about the Crete labyrinth, most of the other diagrams and photos on the Web which are associated with King Minos' labyrinth are not exactly like the diagram shown at the top of this page (which exactly matches somehiker's drawing). And there is no mention of the source of this diagram.

Wiki shows many labyrinths, a couple of which are just like somehiker's. Versions of labyrinths are from everywhere, including Catholic churches, European buildings and rock carvings. There is even one that looks kind of like a swastika. The Wiki page also tells the general history of the labyrinth, and the difference between a labyrinth and a maze. The diagram at the top of the page is the mirror image of somehiker's drawing---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth
There are also a couple of rock carvings on that Wiki page that are the same. In fact, the only actual photos (not diagrams) that are the same as somehiker's are the rock carvings. This one in Meis, Galicia, Spain, is an upside down mirror-image---
This one in Tintagel, Cornwall, England, matches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocky_Valley_labyrinth_Tintagel.jpg
They are both a little damaged, but they work out to be the same as his drawing.
Here is one in Italy, but the path doesn't actually work out, and there are two entrances---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L..._di_paletta_-_Naquane_R_1_-_Capo_di_Ponte.jpg
According to Wiki, somehiker's photo and drawing are the "Classical Labyrinth," which first appeared on coins around 430 B.C.

It looks like somebody did some travelin'.

P.S. somehiker's photo looks like it contains the circle-dot symbol, also.

 

[coazon de oro]

Congratulations Wayne,

Posting the picture of your find here kind of gave me the feeling of taking part. I'm sure others felt the same when they saw it before the rest of the public does. Thanks for posting it, That is one great find! Hopefully Don Jose will put in a good word for you with the Explorer Club. Wonder what's over the next hill?
Homar P. Olivarez

 

[somehiker]

All:
I am glad that you have viewed the carving with enough interest to spend some time looking for the connections that it seems to suggest.I have been spending some time myself,since the rendezvous,also looking at the range of possibilities that come to mind.Very similar carvings have been discovered,even in Siberia (a clue maybe?),dating back as far as 3500 yrs.I have not been able to locate a photo of the one at Casa Grande but Nentvig's drawing also shows an archway that is conspicuously absent in all the others,including the carving that I posted.The carving at Casa Grand dates to the structure's erection and was apparently carved while the mud was still soft.A second was scratched upon the wall at a later date.The one at Montezumas Castle is also a scratching and a bit different.Who knows where the idea originated,but the worldwide occurrence of these carvings seem to suggest that the idea was distributed by migration.Much of the migration was driven by the ice ages and it is widely accepted that the western hemisphere was populated via the Bering Land Bridge.Could the idea have come from Siberia,carried in the minds of those that made that first passage?Was it part of a core religious belief that was incorporated for the next 13000 years? Some say that it is a graphic representation of man's eternal search for enlightenment.I see nothing wrong with that interpretation,for the basic design,be it rounded or squared,serves the idea well.For the Minoans of Knossos the design was a blueprint of the lair/prison of the Minotaur which also served as a means of extracting revenge from the rival Athenians.That story is the first to promote the "string" method of backtracking (also employed by politicians of all stripes).Short and sweet version here:
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/T/Theseus_and_the_Minotaur.html

Regards:SH

 

[Springfield]

All:
I am glad that you have viewed the carving with enough interest to spend some time looking for the connections that it seems to suggest.I have been spending some time myself,since the rendezvous,also looking at the range of possibilities that come to mind.Very similar carvings have been discovered,even in Siberia (a clue maybe?),dating back as far as 3500 yrs.I have not been able to locate a photo of the one at Casa Grande but Nentvig's drawing also shows an archway that is conspicuously absent in all the others,including the carving that I posted.The carving at Casa Grand dates to the structure's erection and was apparently carved while the mud was still soft.A second was scratched upon the wall at a later date.The one at Montezumas Castle is also a scratching and a bit different.Who knows where the idea originated,but the worldwide occurrence of these carvings seem to suggest that the idea was distributed by migration.Much of the migration was driven by the ice ages and it is widely accepted that the western hemisphere was populated via the Bering Land Bridge.Could the idea have come from Siberia,carried in the minds of those that made that first passage?Was it part of a core religious belief that was incorporated for the next 13000 years? Some say that it is a graphic representation of man's eternal search for enlightenment.I see nothing wrong with that interpretation,for the basic design,be it rounded or squared,serves the idea well.For the Minoans of Knossos the design was a blueprint of the lair/prison of the Minotaur which also served as a means of extracting revenge from the rival Athenians.That story is the first to promote the "string" method of backtracking (also employed by politicians of all stripes).Short and sweet version here:
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/T/Theseus_and_the_Minotaur.html

Regards:SH

Seems to me that the Casa Grande labyrinth has be speculated to be the work of the Hopi, although the structure itself and its builders are still somewhat of a mystery I think. I like to read the work of the 19th century Southwestern ethnologists. They weren't as constrained with their opinions as today's frightened archies, who tend to discard the earlier researchers' opinions which often mention things like, say, Aztec connections. The Hopis seem likely to have been in the area the longest and are incredibly interesting folks with very strong links to India and Tibet (interesting that the Dali Lama is one of their pals). It might be interesting to run down their explanation of the maze symbol. If their traditional elders still keep the secrets down in their kivas, I'll bet they know.

I also wonder about the spiral carvings. It might represent the same thing as the labyrinth, only easier to carve. I know that many experts feel confident about the interpretations of the NA petroglyphs found all over the place, and a lot of it 'makes sense' (The Rocks Begin to Speak is a good read), but I'm not convinced yet that we know as much as we think we do. I've run into a lot of crazy people in the past 30 or 40 years tracking down 'treasure sign', and the one lunatic (now deceased) who continues to haunt my thoughts put particular emphasis on the use of the spriral in conjunction with certain other symbols.

Quien sabe? Anyway, now that you've found this thing, you can do a whole lot of pondering.

 

[somehiker]

The Hopi are a truly fascinating people.Possibly the closest remaining culture to the earliest city builders in the southwest.
The "Man in the Maze" and the "Hopi Stones" or "Tablets" mysteries (mysterious to us,anyway) may share a common origin.
http://www.thedreammasters.org/hopi/martingashweseoma.php
The third Hopi Tablet features the depiction of a man on one face,similar to that of the "Man in the Maze" representation.
The back side of the fourth tablet features the body of a man,decapitated,and one corner is absent.Much of the mystery is where this missing corner might be found,and when.Could the rock head,the labyrinth carvings and stories of underground passageways be somehow connected to all of this?The documented chronicles of those that lived in the area when the first Europeans arrived should carry some weight,rather than being dismissed offhand by present day historians.Fr. Jacobo Sedelmayr had this to say,in his journals:



REgards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

....The back side of the fourth tablet features the body of a man,decapitated,and one corner is absent.Much of the mystery is where this missing corner might be found,and when......

As I recall, the Hopi are still waiting for the return of the missing tablet corner. It supposedly will be brought by Pahana, the 'Lost White Brother'. Lots of speculation about this.

 

[EE THr]

I have to correct, again, what I said about the Man in the Maze. The Pima logo maze is the same as the Classical Labyrinth shown in somehiker's drawing. It's just upside down and mirror-imaged, and the outside loop-backs are bent toward the middle of the circle.


Interesting note: The word "clue" comes from the King Minos Labyrinth story---

Word Origin & History
clue
Phonetic variant of clew (q.v.) "a ball of thread or yarn," with reference to the one Theseus used as a guide out of the Labyrinth. The purely figurative sense of "that which points the way" is from 1620s.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clue

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I believe the spirals that are found throughout the Southwest are fairly well accepted as depicting sipapu's, or the place where all living things emerged from the earth and populated it's surface. It seems likely that they brought the concept over with them from Asia. It may be a crapshoot to figure how it got to Asia, but Africa might be a good bet.

The fact that the design is found around the world, does not seem that unusual when you view them from that perspective.

Your spiral, if authentic, likely was done by a Shaman, as it is believed they were responsible for most of the rock art in the Southwest......and probably elsewhere. The original Native Americans would have considered those drawings to have serious "power". I would suspect that a number Native American might still hold that belief today........especially the modern-day medicine men.

Are we talking the Cherry Creek area for your find?

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
I have no idea where Cherry Creek is,so I can't answer that question.The name sounds familiar,just can't place it.
A spiral seems to convey a different concept than a labyrinth.
There is one small ruin of a structure in the immediate area that does make me,for some reason,think that it may have been built for a solitary occupant,possibly a shaman.The entryway is unusual,making use of a natural feature that would have made the structure seem like a cave.I wonder if,as with the Monasteries of Tibet,for example,the religions of the new world established training centers in similarly isolated places? Could these religions have also sent out missionaries to spread the word,like their counterparts in the east? Could the civilizations of Central and South America,or that of the Mississipi watershed have had their own famous explorers who helped to spread their foreign ideas?

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

No doubt someone will be able to tell you where Cherry Creek is. Been a few Dutch Hunters up there in the past.

Just thought I would clear up one thing. It would be useless to date the lichen that has been scratched into to create your spiral. You would be dating the new growth that replaces what has been removed.

The newer the scraping, the more accurate the era will be. Under 500 years, and I believe we would be talking decade.....Give or take a couple.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

It would have served my memory better to have suggested the Anchan as a possibility.Although the Cherry Creek ruins are some distance further afield,it would seem possible that this particular culture had a wider influence throughout the area during their relatively short occupation.Also likely that the carving would date to the same time frame.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Don't see any way that design was created by the Anchan. It's all about the lichen......On the other hand, a more recent people could have done it, but most would stay away from an area of such power.

Just my, unqualified, opinion so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
Sounds like you have a group in mind.Possibly the Zuni? If not, would you care to elaborate on the who and why?
I did,after all,post the photos in order to get feedback,which has been excellent so far.I do know that some of the authors of books about the Sups,the military actions and the LDM, have mentioned some of what I have seen in this particular area of the mountains.Not necessarily in direct reference to the LDM,or the Stone Maps though.It is also,IMO, outside the area that I consider directly relevant to the stones.

Regards:Wayne

Also:
"It would be useless to date the lichen that has been scratched into to create your spiral. You would be dating the new growth that replaces what has been removed."

Would not dating the lichen within the grooving of the rock not establish an approximate date for the grooving itself?
I would guess that comparative testing of areas outside of the carved area would give older dates,of course.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

[Also:
"It would be useless to date the lichen that has been scratched into to create your spiral. You would be dating the new growth that replaces what has been removed."

Would not dating the lichen within the grooving of the rock not establish an approximate date for the grooving itself?
I would guess that comparative testing of areas outside of the carved area would give older dates,of course.]

That was my point exactly. That is what you should, not would, be dating. Just poorly worded.....my bad.

Before you pick a particular group, it would be best to date the design. That should suggest the people what done it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... Would not dating the lichen within the grooving of the rock not establish an approximate date for the grooving itself?....

....Before you pick a particular group, it would be best to date the design. That should suggest the people what done it....

Unfortuntely, in a case such as this, we can't know the age of the lichen within the grooves for certain. For one thing, it could have been removed twice for all we know - once when the carving was created, a second time later by a second party. This scenario or one similar has happened countless times with artifacts discovered by enthusiastic amateurs. The Kensington Runestone was unearthed and the carvings scraped with a nail, which complicated its dating for decades. The Los Lunas Decalog Stone had its lichen removed to better view the carvings and has compromised the stone's provenance. These are just two well-known cases. You can make assumptions about somehiker's labyrinth petroglyph, but your conclusions will be based on those. May be correct, may not.

Even under ideal conditions, lichen dating is tricky business. They say the stuff grows at a rate of a dime-sized patch every hundred years on fresh rock, as a rule of thumb. But the variables are enormous - some grows much faster, some much slower. Then it quits growing, or not. Lichen growth can be helpful in establishing certain things, such as the construction of those amazing cairns located in Utah. Since the lichen on those rock piles grew from one rock across to the next, unbroken, it was assumed that the structures had been in place for a long time. But how long? 100 years? 500? 1000?

Dating the design is tricky too. We already know the symbol was in use in Greece at least since 1500 bc when Minos' palace was destroyed by the Thira volcanic explosion. What does that tell you? You seem pretty grounded to me Joe - are you ready to enter such a rabbithole, or would you assume the carving is a latter day copy of a much older design?

 

[Blindbowman]

very well stated , and very true to a point .. if you studying a rabbit hole you must study the logics that created from their point of veiw , a rabbit dose not just created the rabbit hole for the hell of it .. he creates it with habbits and sence ....eath rabbit hole fits the speice needs and can be under stood by logical formating ..

ageing stone is very hard and writeing on stone is even harder ..

and you correct joe that was the case in the Kensington Runestone , and many other accounts ,, but what was funny about this Kensington Runestone is the same type of simbolics are created here the drawings in the supers ..

the staircase for one ..

stone work and skills reflect the nature of the art of the stone mason

here we see a drawing and no writeing .. dose the art need writeing to date it ... no .. it would be easyer .. but not needed to relate to the logical format of the drawing and how it was created .. for one the two sided tunnle suport systen with renforced overhead .. this is not a native American set of factors .. why would any american native tribe created a coded drawing they were the only ones here at the time .. it would be unlogical now is the drawing of the tunnel opening the same date and creater as the spiral .. i beleive the spiral has many meanings when put in the drawing it can mean diffrent things .. in this case i beleive your looking at a brithing stone .. in translation it would say something like this place is a pplace of brithing .. it could mean one of a tribe or the whole tribe is self . or mean in genral terms..

the 3 moons over the door way tell you what tribe if the two parts of the drawing are created by the same sorce ..

this is just my frist look at the drawing and if i had a few days to study it i could brake it down even more and relate to other drawings to read it and traslate it ...

if you note :

the inner spiral dose not stone at one given point .. in the center .. it loops ver it self .. this is common in the native american spiralisum .of life after life and life after death ..

i did not note if the drawing was at the tunnel enterence or some where else near by .. the drawings placement in relationship to the tunnel opening may give more insight to its meanings ..

and yes i have no dout what so ever i could read and translate it over a few days .. ...

good reply joe ..

note : i just looked at the drawing if you trace out the lines you well define there is two lines from starting in the ceneter and each over covers the others and end up oppseing each other and the ends , this would tell me they are close at brith and even if they react to fate they end up faceing each other . so threw out the life the react between them and the two grow apart threw the life span .. i beleive you are in fact looking at the spiritral cycle of a person or tribe the marking shows a ? mark that may relate a early relationships with white man .. in the idea that we were trying to teach them our languags this could also be related to the tunnel drawing part of depending on how far these drawings are apart and if they are read as one message or just unrelated parts of diffrent drawings .. vs the tunnel it self ..IMHO

any of this translation is subject to change if i could read the drawings as they are ...in relationship to each other and the tunnel it self ..

 

[cactusjumper]

.... Would not dating the lichen within the grooving of the rock not establish an approximate date for the grooving itself?....

....Before you pick a particular group, it would be best to date the design. That should suggest the people what done it....

Unfortuntely, in a case such as this, we can't know the age of the lichen within the grooves for certain. For one thing, it could have been removed twice for all we know - once when the carving was created, a second time later by a second party. This scenario or one similar has happened countless times with artifacts discovered by enthusiastic amateurs. The Kensington Runestone was unearthed and the carvings scraped with a nail, which complicated its dating for decades. The Los Lunas Decalog Stone had its lichen removed to better view the carvings and has compromised the stone's provenance. These are just two well-known cases. You can make assumptions about somehiker's labyrinth petroglyph, but your conclusions will be based on those. May be correct, may not.

Even under ideal conditions, lichen dating is tricky business. They say the stuff grows at a rate of a dime-sized patch every hundred years on fresh rock, as a rule of thumb. But the variables are enormous - some grows much faster, some much slower. Then it quits growing, or not. Lichen growth can be helpful in establishing certain things, such as the construction of those amazing cairns located in Utah. Since the lichen on those rock piles grew from one rock across to the next, unbroken, it was assumed that the structures had been in place for a long time. But how long? 100 years? 500? 1000?

Dating the design is tricky too. We already know the symbol was in use in Greece at least since 1500 bc when Minos' palace was destroyed by the Thira volcanic explosion. What does that tell you? You seem pretty grounded to me Joe - are you ready to enter such a rabbithole, or would you assume the carving is a latter day copy of a much older design?

Springfield,

You make some excellent points, however, in these matters "ideal conditions" are seldom, if ever, encountered. That being said, the first step would still be to date the lichen growth that has replaced what has been removed from the rock.

It may have been re-scraped, it may not. They only have the physical evidence that is present today to test. It may be that it will date to less than 1,000 years, which would be good, or 500 years or less, which would be really good.

I believe you are mistaken that "we can't know the age of the lichen within the grooves for certain." To the day, you are correct. To the decade is possible......I believe. In any case, the effort is worthwhile IMHO.

"But the variables are enormous - some grows much faster, some much slower."

While that is true, the experts doing the testing will know what type of lichen they are testing and how fast it grows in the environment it is found in. They will make adjustments to accommodate the measurable history of the surrounding evidence. That would include periods of slow growth due to climatic conditions.

"We already know the symbol was in use in Greece at least since 1500 BC when Minos' palace was destroyed by the Thira volcanic explosion. What does that tell you?"

I don't know that it tells me anything. Spiral rock art is at least 10,000 years old.......I believe. It's found in Africa, and could have spread from there. Seems more than likely that it migrated into Asia, then Australia and may have made it across the Bearing Straits with the first Americans from Asia.

It's fun to speculate on those things, but Wayne has a tangible artifact to test. Personally, I would be happy to accept the conclusions of qualified experts, over any speculation we can offer.

Take care,

Joe