The Peralta Stones

[somehiker]

Sheese... I sent my "Little Brother" with you on your last trip. How much "backup" do you need Wayne?

Best,

Jim

Hey Jim:
Don't know if I'd want that kind of backup with rock all around me.Dodgin bees is bad enough in tight quarters like that.
Thinkin more like having someone at the other end of a length of rope might be the way to go.Good to see you posting.
Been any snow on the Peaks yet?

Regards:Wayne

 

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[Blindbowman]

its a brithing stone

 

[Jim Hatt]

Hey Jim:
Don't know if I'd want that kind of backup with rock all around me.Dodgin bees is bad enough in tight quarters like that.


Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

According to Walter Perrine... Ed Piper used to shoot mosquitoes with a .44... Bees are bigger targets! .

There has been some snow on 4-Peaks for about a week, but we haven't had any on Superstition Mountain yet.

Best,

Jim

 

[Blindbowman]

becareful when the snow hits .. the cats will start to move with the deer herds ..

 

[Javaone]

It is an interesting hobby,trying to fit so many little bits and pieces together.
Way back in 1764,a fella by the name of Juan Nentvig authored a book which he titled "Rudo Ensayo",a description of Sonora and Arizona.Within the pages of that volume is a sketch of a "maze" that was found carved into one of the walls of Casa Grande.This photo is not a picture of the carving at Casa Grande,however.It's not the one that was found at Montezuma's Castle,either.I have included a reproduction of Nentvig's sketch for comparison,as it does seem to resemble the carving on this rock face in many ways.
There may be no connection to the LDM,gold mines or even the Stone Maps.But it is all kind of intriguing to my way of thinking.Perhaps others may find this to be the case as well?

Happy 2011!!
May good fortune find you all.

Regards:SH.

SH, you fat headed son of a gun... < just kidding

Jerry, you said this...

It is evident that although thousands have been crawling all over the Supes for many years, there still have been interesting things discovered there – which lends to the possibility that something has been missed.

You've stated in one sentence my entire infatuation with the Superstitions - thank you . Whether it be precious metals, native american signs, early historical military evidence, or something entirely different - the idea that "over the next rise" something unique and unseen for many years may lie waiting for discovery is what fills my imagination every day.

Thanks Cub,

That's what keeps me coming back.

JJ

…THAT’S exactly what I’m talking about….

You have your NAY sayers,… “been there done that” SAYERS,… “It’s been found” SAYERS,… “EVERYTHING you can think of” SAYERS, -- It’s like, they just want to put out the flame!
They haven’t found IT (whatever IT is) sooo, you should just “give up”!

It’s out there… maybe not what you’re looking for… but,
WHAT’S AROUND THAT NEXT BEND!!!

Don't give up,.... It's right in front of you.

 

[EE THr]

somehiker---



Since you indicated that it has been located in at least three different places, I would think that it is a symbol, rather than a map to any specific spot.

As a symbol, it looks like it is saying, "In searching for your goal, if you don't accept what you find, but pass it up and re-enter the maze, you will come to a dead end."

This is where fanatics find themselves. Pounding their heads against the dead end. This happens when they lose confidence in their original goal, and to them, the searching has become more prestigious than the truth, so they can't stop their search. Which means that they were only searching for prestige in the first place, and never recognized the truth when they saw it.

On the other hand, it could just be random scribbling.

 

[Cubfan64]

here is a photo of a sign above the mine that is under the indians nose. It says there is death there. There are two tunnels thatI know of and one hole that leads into it. One tunnel has a metal door and a trap with a false cieling and rocks to fall on someone. The timbers gave way and it is half triggered. It is filled in with dirt but leads to a vast mining operation. You could get lost in it. The rocks are on a 7 foot column and the arrow appears to have been hit with a low charge projectile.

St. Jerome,

While your 2 posts are interesting, they're really confusing to me. Can you clarify a few things?

1) What indian nose are you talking about?
2) Can you explain why you interpret that photo as being a sign of a death trap?
3) I don't understand your statement, "There are two tunnels that I know of and one hole that leads into it." So you have a mine with two tunnels, but only one hole that leads into it (it meaning the mine or it meaning one of the tunnels?)
4) So one tunnel has a metal door which I assume is open since you can see inside and note the false ceiling with trap and rotted timbers - is that correct? If it's "filled in with dirt," how can you tell it leads into a vast mining operation?
5) The rocks on the 7 foot column - is that the photo you are showing here? So the perspective is from the top of that column looking down at the stones and the ground below?
6) What do you mean by the arrow as I don't see any arrow in that photo?

Sorry to sound so "daft," but I can't grasp what you're trying to convey.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

You realize, I assume, that your marking could be dated. One of the best in the business is in Arizona. I have been in touch with him in the past and he is very open to these kinds of things.......as I recall.

Take care,

Joe

 

[St. Jerome]

There is a story of a lost mine and it is under a cliff that looks like an indian with a huge nose. The mine is under his nose. That is the mine and it has two tunnels leading into it. One has a grated door and just past the door is a trap above you and about 6 more feet filled in with dirt and rocks. It does not appear to be a cave in. The other tunnel leads into the catacombs. The photo of the rock I believe was left to express that there is nothing but death or the mine is dead. I think so. I dont really know. I have been trying to figure this stuff out for years. And to tell you the truth that pickle rock with the little rocks on it is really not that important as to locating anything. I just found a cd of these photos and I happen to have a computer now so finally I can post them. forget the rock with little rocks thogh I should probubly remove the photo because its hard to explain how I read it. I did figure it out within a few minutes and located another trail that took me up an extremely steep ravine and eventually led to a seperate mine altogether. A mark on a cliff that is only visible when in a shadow[the mark], states that it is a silver mine. But I have found silver and gold bearing ore that was dropped. The shadow sign that says silver says 1539E. It looked fake to me but it led me to the place and I cant see why anyone would make a fake spanish symbol that leads to a real spanish mine. I will try to find out the name of the legend and mine that describes the big indian nose.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

You realize, I assume, that your marking could be dated. One of the best in the business is in Arizona. I have been in touch with him in the past and he is very open to these kinds of things.......as I recall.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe:
I would assume that you are referring to Ron Dorn.I have his name on a list of able contacts,although their are some doubts among others in his field,regarding his testing methodology and results.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/280/5372/2041.full

For the time being,I will consider this carving to be of a similar age as the others that I mentioned in my original post.If,by further exploration,it becomes necessary to establish a more precise timeframe,I would certainly be willing to give Ron a couple of other locations nearby,as well, that he might find of interest.
If you recall that oddly familiar "image" on the canyon wall,I am inclined to think that the image,the big rock head overlooking the box canyon with the many "caves" below,the ruins on the cliffs above and the "maze" stories/beliefs are closely connected.
At this point in time though,I do not have much more that I am able to share.

Regards:Wayne

Repost of the rock head:

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

It's been awhile, but it could have been Professor Dorn. As I recall, the proffesor I got in touch with was William Bull. Lost all of my old emails when my computer went down, so.......

I believe I may have mentioned the guy to one of our members who had posted some scrappings, but can't remember who.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

....I would assume that you are referring to Ron Dorn.I have his name on a list of able contacts,although their are some doubts among others in his field,regarding his testing methodology and results.....

I think you'll find that Mr. Dorn's techniques have not been accepted by all as reliable. This is no reflection on him, but only more evidence that a foolproof method for the scientific dating of petroglyphs has not been established. Many techniques have shown promising results anecdotally, but because of the variations in rock chemistry, the likelyhood of sample contamination, the qualifications and experience of the investigator, the cost involved for some of the methods and the relative lack of activity in the field, it's a crapshoot to hang your hat on 'scientific dating' of artifacts IMHO.

Unfortunately, nearly all accepted artifact dating is based on the context of the discovery (burials with associated objects primarily) and culturally - in the case of petroglyphs, what the subject matter is. I say 'unfortunately' because in the case of petroglyphs, the subject matter can easily be faked. This opens the door for creating modern carvings that are meant to be mistaken for older ones. With a little 'artificial aging' of fresh carvings using mechanical and chemical means - voila!

What's the motivation for a fake carving? One is to hide valuable information in plain sight. It's said by some that post-Columbians (16th century to present era) disguised new, valid information in the midst of Ameridian carvings so that they would be assumed to be older, 'native' stuff. Another is to hoax treasure hunters with disinformation. In the Southwest, we find lots of petroglyphs in volcanic tuffs, sandstones and basalts - all very difficult to 'scientifically' date, regardless of the methodology.

Remember too - things are seldom as they seem. Why would you think otherwise?

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

There are many variables in dating lichen. I would not be so quick to dismiss Lichenometry as a method of dating the artifact in question. In this case, you would not be dating the lichen growth that outlines the design, but instead you would be dating the lichen growth in the design itself, assuming there is any.

A growth that is under 1000 years old can, theoretically, be dated to within a ten percent error margin. As that time span lessens, so does the percent of error margin. At 500 years, I believe you can predict the age of the lichen fairly close.

Where the real problem comes, is trying to date man made structures that use natural stone, such as stone walls. With this particular design we have an undisturbed natural rock wall , covered with lichen, to compare with the rock surface of the design.

My guess is that either Professor Dorn or Bull could give you a pretty accurate opinion. Both men are accessible, so you might want to ask them what they think about your find.

While it's possible, I doubt this site is unknown. All of this is just my, unqualified, opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

EE THr:
Your last post seemed to be somewhat cynical.Perhaps they are all merely symbols,carved even by the same artist as he visited each of these various locations? I once hunted with a guy by the name of James Whitehead.Had a habit of carving JW,his initials obviously,in the bark of white birch trees.Now,45 years later,I have no doubt that passers by often speculate on the translation of those initials that remain visible.I wonder how many will consider them to be man made,or understand them to be the mark of James Whitehead?
It could also be a map.I wonder how earlier groups of people,those without access to pen and paper,or sheet metal and paint,could have accomplished what our present civilization has with modern map/gps and highway signage.

Springfield:
No doubt,many of the petroglyphs found presently in the southwest are the handiwork of modern man.Motives for such probably vary from one "artist" to the next,as do the motives for those dismissing any discovery as suspect,I would think.
Maybe there really is a band of merry mischief makers prowling the mountains,having devoted their lives to creating, with hammer and chisel,chemicals and such, the means by which to achieve their goal of discouraging us misguided fools.Perhaps they have even found a way to promote the rapid growth of lichen,so obvious in the photo of this carving,as well.The world of art and artifacts has certainly attracted it's share of counterfeiters,who have managed to make even the experts appear inept.
There has been many references made regarding such deceit having been practised by author/searchers within the LDM community.Barry Storm for instance.Perhaps someone can post a photo of one such example,and we can use it as a sample for further discussion.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
I am under no illusion that many of the things that I have stumbled upon out there are unknown to those that have made the historical study of the area their career.That applies to this area as well,especially this area since nearby ruins are indicated on their own map of Salado sites.They are,after all,well trained in observing the not-so-obvious.Unfortunately,they are also bound, in many cases,by budgetary restraints and convention.That is my unqualified opinion as well.

Regards:SH

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Two of the most highly respected geologists using lichenometry in their work, are Professor Mark Brandon of Yale and William Bull of the University of Arizona. They are using their technique to date ancient earthquakes, as well as Bull using the method to date a major event that happened near Los Angeles in 1690.

Because rock surfaces are often exposed to the environment by major earthquakes, it's possible to use lichen that colonizes that fresh surface to date when the earthquake took place. Within the last 1,000 years, it's possible to date a major earthquake that occurred in that time span, using lichenometry, to within 10 or 20 years.

What you have is a, relatively, fresh exposure of the rock surface....lichen wise. From what I have read, and I researched this subject a few years ago, dating that surface might not be difficult at all. From what I remember, lichen grows at a fairly predictable growth rate, taking the local invronment into consideration.

In any case, it was a very interesting find. Congratulations.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.....Maybe there really is a band of merry mischief makers prowling the mountains,having devoted their lives to creating, with hammer and chisel,chemicals and such, the means by which to achieve their goal of discouraging us misguided fools.Perhaps they have even found a way to promote the rapid growth of lichen,so obvious in the photo of this carving,as well.The world of art and artifacts has certainly attracted it's share of counterfeiters,who have managed to make even the experts appear inept....

'"...us misguided fools..." I include myself in this club. Without going off on a tangent, we'll not debate who 'they' are, but you can believe they have the capabilities. After all, we're all still turning circles in the hills, aren't we? By the way, re lichens .... http://lichenlovers.org/lichen_growth_formula.phtml These are amateurs. If you have access to world class talent, much is possible.

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for the link Springfield.
According to the method,though,it requires annual cultivation over a period of years to achieve much in the way of growth.Can't imagine that kind of determination,especially considering the effort required to even get to this area in the first place.
I set one day aside last spring to try to reach the area above and behind the rock head.A little hike similar in terrain and distance to touring Blacktop,Bluff Springs,or even all of Peters in an equivalent amount of time.With a six am start and an eight pm finish,I planned on about one hour or so for close up examination and photos of that area.A wrong turn at a canyon juncture cost me just enough time that I couldn't make it,let alone spend an hour there.Maybe next time.
I might add,that I have yet to see any "petroglyphs" in this particular area of the mountains.
Although there is an abundance of suitable rock in the neighbourhood.
Whatever that might indicate.

Regards:SH.

 

[EE THr]

somehiker---

Yeah, it was a little cynical, but not towards you. I got a little emotional on the "fanatics" part.

But I do think it's a symbol, because it's too symmetrical to be an actual geographic map. It looks more like a philosophic or religious symbol.

It could be a clue to a hidden location, but if so, I think it would be more of a statement of how to go about finding it, rather than a landmark-and-directions type of map.

I think it's a great find, and I sincerely appreciate your posting it, and the supporting information.

Whether it's a map or a symbol, I think it makes a big statement about whoever made it, and the reasoning behind it. Especially since it appears in three different locations, in about 99% the exact same form (I haven't seen a photo of the one you mentioned at Montezuma's Castle, but I assume it's the same). It appears to be much more sophisticated than those commonly attributed to "Native Americans," so far.

And I do think my opinionary interpretation is plausible. But while in that train of thought, it sort of triggered my feelings about some other posts, over the last few months, which have been kind of irksome, but at the same time sad.

Sorry I left that post in such a half-baked state, but I felt I had better keep it short before it turned into a rant, or sounded too serious.

Note: Apparently there is no such word as "opinionary." Oh well.

 

[starman 1]

Hello Somehiker,

Really enjoyed your picture. Quite the time machine you have located.

Interesting to consider why these etchings are located in Montezuma`s Castle and Casa Grande.

Perhaps they are gifts from traveler`s from an ancient time. Of course the question is what is it all about?

It is the diagram of a city. One designed around the schematic of a more ancient place. Overlay your maze with Circlestone.
Circlestone is not the city only its beacon.

The way is all over the Southwest from Sedona, the Commandment stone in New Mexico, Casa Grande, and many other places.

Ancient visitors who came searching for things we still cannot imagine.

If you read Plato`s account of the city of Atlantis you will find the rememberance of your etching. If we could find the rest of the dialogue we could find things in Arizona. Sadly enough that material is in the hands of people who have done a lot of damage to the Superstitions.

" The capital city of Atlantis was a marvel of architecture and engineering. The city was composed of a series of concentric walls and canals. At the very center was a hill, and on top of the hill a temple to Poseidon. Inside was a gold statue of the God of the Sea showing him driving six winged horses. "


Starman