The Peralta Stones

CJ,

Fair enough. You are correct in that you came off as attacking Tumlinson's character. You wouldn't have been the first. It happens quite often that someone comes up with some scenario that requires Tumlinson to have been a huge liar or worse. If the man and his wife dealt honestly with all his friends, neighbors, and business acquaintances (as evidenced by their testimonies), and we have absolutely ZERO hard evidence to prove that his story as told is not true, then who are you (or anyone else who didn't know the man) to question his integrity and veracity? I'm not saying the story is true or not. I'm just saying that I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Another problem we have is that we have ZERO first hand accounts of exactly what Tumlinson said regarding finding the stones. We have two third hand stories:

1. Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Uncle and some time partner)

2. We have Clarence O Mitchell who bought the stones from Travis' Widow Aileen after his death in 1961, telling us what Aileen told him.

So, the Holy Grail for that part of the story is a manuscript that Tumlinson had supposedly written in which he details his finding of the stones as well as his many years of searching the Supers trying to unlock their secrets. That manuscript has, to the best of my knowledge, never been found. Mitchell knew about it, and MIGHT have gotten it from Tumlinson's Daughter Janey. It MIGHT have been the source of information he used to write his book, but we don't know for certain.

Best-Mike
 

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BB, when was the last time that you honestly have heard of, or seen where a mountain lion has killed or eaten a human? Why would they, they prefer nice tender juicy Venison, not modified pork.

Lions are the least of my worries in the brush, my ever luvin Mule is more dangerous. If I can pe- on a Jaguar and all he does is run away ????

Speaking of D'Juicy where is he?

Yes, a cat will follow you , but out of curiosity , not weighing your dinner potential. A characteristic that puddy cats , large and small, all share.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
.... when was the last time that you honestly have heard of, or seen where a mountain lion has killed or eaten a human?....
Click to expand...

Two years ago (2008), 150 yards south of the cemetery in Pinos Altos, NM. I know this for a fact because I personally saw the cat (150-pound male) and along with my partner, discovered the victim's half-eaten body the next morning in the brush about 60 feet from his front door. The victim was a small, autistic, 50-year old male who was apparently taken at night from his front porch and dragged to the brush. The cat was tracked for 3 days and finally snared and killed by the Fish and Game people. A local 'wildlife photographer' had been feeding the cat in order to lure him closeby for pictures.
 

CJ,

I can think of a number of plausible scenarios for the creation of the Stone Maps.

My favorite is the Jesuit Possibility. Imagine you are a Jesuit Father Provincial in 1766. You have seen your Order Suppressed and destroyed first in Portugal and all her colonies. Then the same thing in France and her colonies. Your priests have been arrested in Spain when they were caught handing out money to rioters proving that they had fomented the Spanish Rebellions of 1766, and you know that you had been trash talking the King of Spain (Charles III) because he supported the "Enlightenment" while the Jesuits supported the "Inquisitions". You knew it was just a matter of time before all of the Jesuit Priests in Spain and her colonies in the New World would be arrested on a moments notice in the middle of the night. As was true in the other suppressions, the Priests would be allowed to carry only the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Sir Thomas A Kempis' Book "An Imitation of Christ".

Almost every Church and Mission in the New World had vestments and adornments of solid silver and gold. You knew that everything the Church owned would become property of the state. So, with no chance to ship the valuables back to Europe, you took them somewhere remote to hide them. Now that the Church Valuables are safe, what do you do? You don't know how long this suppression will last (in this case 47 years). What do you do with the maps to where you hid the loot? Where would they be safe for 47 years? You can't take them with you. They would have been found. You put them on stone and hide them near a landmark that you can feel comfortable will be there 100 years from then. That way, all you had to do was remember how to get to the landmark.

This is fairly close to my own theory (which I won't get into), but you get the gist.

Best-Mike
 

mike,

i do like that theory, but i recall you saying before that you believe the "witch" stone could possible be a map to find the other maps, why would they all be left together then? do you think that heart map may be leading to another map?
 

Cat Jockey said:
.....and round we go ...

That and the map themselves are just too clever by half. To ‘Hollywood’ like. I don’t like ‘em Mike. But hey, it would be pretty sweet if you could prove my doubts wrong and you ended up with a more gold than you could carry and a crap eating grin on your face, best of luck in your search to decipher and recover.....
Click to expand...

Your skepticism is healthy. Remember, the fish that bite on the obvious shiny lures are quickly hooked and led astray - often into the net waiting for them.

If the Jesuits were involved in secreting a cache in the area, they would have easily provided its location to others by means other than these cartoon stone maps. Coded documents filed in plain site, for example, along with subtle permanent markers in the field. Or pertinent information retained in architectural structures. Etc. Etc. These people were the most brilliant minds of their time and had much better ways of hiding knowledge other than leaving cartoon maps buried in the desert.

The cartoon maps more likely belong to the Peralta side of the rumor mill if they have any true credibility, IMO. Considering the stones' provenance through the Tumlinsons, a huge throbbing red alarm in my eyes, the whole thing could be some sort of false flag, mistaken venue, a prank, or who knows what else. Yes, it can be shown that certain carvings on the stones can be associated with things found in the Superstitions, including landmarks and land forms, but this by itself is an ambivalent arguement, and as Oro, I believe, has offered, the clues may relate to another location. You might be surprised how many places might fit map clues - it's a fractal phenomena.
 

HIO Cat XZXXX: The only acceptable explanation to me so far is Reaves. As for their being buried in an unexplainable, unremarkable, blah location, sheesh. How could you explain to some one that has never been there, or on another continent, just where to find them? Absolutely illogical. As a mater of fact, it is out of what is normally considered as the Jesuit's MO.

I have yet to see any connection with the Jesuits to the stones or the Superstitions.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s get your mail yet? I used the one in your profile.
 

good morning Cat : You realize that the data was just a general one, I could go into more specific detail, but didn't consider it necessary, beyond showing to you that there is a logical scientific basis. Even BB could understand it ! he he h e

Sorry BB couldn't resist, as for Joe putting me on ignore, no way, he is addicted to me - sides who else would eat his stew? And most important, I have his effigy to practice with.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Don Jose,

"I have yet to see any connection with the Jesuits to the stones or the Superstitions."

There is no doubt that the first two stones are an accurate map of the western end of the Superstition Mountains. It does not take any real time or knowledge to see that match.

Someone who can find Tayopa, when no one else has been able to accomplish that task in around 260 years, should have no trouble seeing the connection between the maps and a simple topographic map. If you are unable to do that, I have serious doubts that you have actually found Tayopa......Perhaps some other, similar, mine. :dontknow:

I agree that there is no evidence of the stones being connected, in any way, with the Jesuits. We are still waiting for Azmula's book to provide such proof. I believe that book has been, at least, eight years in trying to get the finished product to a publisher. It may be that personal problems have caused that delay. As soon as it becomes available, I will be first in line to buy it.

So far, much like Tayopa, it's all stories. Nothing tangible.

Take care,

Joe
 

HI Cactus, you posted -->Someone who can find Tayopa, when no one else has been able to accomplish that task in around 260 years, should have no trouble seeing the connection between the maps and a simple topographic map.
*******************

hmm , drinking the left over fermented cactus juice? I have never said that they didn't match?? Only that the match may not be the correct location after all. Also, it has been almost 400 years since Tayopa was lost, don't down play my magnificient and brilliant genius please! snicker.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You also posted -->I agree that there is no evidence of the stones being connected, in any way, with the Jesuits.
************
This is what I said ! Keep it up and I will demand mushrooms & coffee with my steak that you are going to buy me !!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You posted -->So far, much like Tayopa, it's all stories. Nothing tangible.

************************

True, so true, and it is going to stay that way for a while, however a ton of pictures and coordinates were posted, so if you feel like going there, be my guest...

Now quit horsing around and post Beth's and Oro's picture. he he he

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Hi Real de Tayopa,

I have attached a wonderful photo of Oro, you got to love his hair. WHOOPS! See second photograph with Beth and Oro, what a great looking couple. I really enjoyed meeting them both and we soon centered on some shop talk. Two days of good company and good chow. Joe is doing one great job (and lets not forget his wife as she is his other half).

Ellie B
 

Don Jose,

"Also, it has been almost 400 years since Tayopa was lost, don't down play my magnificient and brilliant genius please! snicker."

It's possible that one of us needs to reread the history of Tayopa. Could it be that you are confusing when it was discovered with when it was abandoned?

Being a "brilliant genius" requires that you be magnificent.......not magnificient. :D My apologies if you have a bit of a speech impediment/lisp.
:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

Since it doesn't have anything to do with any possible solutions to the Stone Maps, I'll detail where I THINK they might have come from.

Someone else has done a LOT of research and come to the conclusion that the Stone Maps originally came from under a Priest's Bed in the Mission at Arizpe, Mexico. I think he MAY be partially correct.

Here is ONE possible scenario:

Everything I said before, but with one change. Even though the Stones may have been buried near a landmark that would be easy to remember, it would still be in the middle of a vast wilderness. IF the Jesuits did make these maps to their valuables, they would have been smarter than to just dump them in a hole in the desert. If the suppression would have lasted 200 years, how do you pass down instructions over several generations to get to ONE SPECIFIC PLACE in the desert? IMPOSSIBLE!

So, why not make one stone that (if you know how to read it) will tell you how to find the other stones, and hide it someplace that you can be certain no Catholic (of ANY Order) would ever destroy. A MISSION/Church. Maybe hide that and the Heart Insert (the final key) together.

While I am giving Tumlinson the benefit of the doubt that he was telling the truth about his finding of the Stone Maps, I am not against looking at plausible alternatives. MAYBE, the Horse/Priest Stone and the Heart Insert were hidden in the floor of the Arizpe Mission, and they found their way to Travis through "Peg Leg" Tumlinson. The Jesuit Plan being, when the suppression ended, someone would come to the Arizpe Mission and recover the H/P Stone and the Heart Insert. They would use the H/P Stone to find the other stones, then put them all together and use them to recover their treasure.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a possible kicker to that possibility:

The suppression of the Jesuit Order ended in 1814 worldwide. That was a loooooooooooong time before 1949. It is also VERY possible that Travis Tumlinson was telling the absolute truth about how he found the stones. Maybe the Jesuits came back sometime after 1814, collected all the stones, used them to recover their treasure, then dumped all the now useless Stone Maps in the same holes as they were on their way back South from the Supers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

See,

There is one very distinct possibility that nobody likes to think about. Maybe the Jesuits returned after their suppression and recovered all their hidden wealth. Could that be why have always so strenuously denied that there are any Jesuit Treasures out there? Maybe they know that they have already recovered most of them?

Just a thought.

Best-Mike
 

from Gollum:
There is one very distinct possibility that nobody likes to think about. Maybe the Jesuits returned after their suppression and recovered all their hidden wealth. Could that be why have always so strenuously denied that there are any Jesuit Treasures out there? Maybe they know that they have already recovered most of them?
Click to expand...

Mike - this time I believe you have hit the nail squarely on the head! I have always had a certain amount of 'trouble' with the stones - but what you just said makes perfect sense (at least to _me_ )!
;-)
 

Cat Jockey said:
Yes, it can be shown that certain carvings on the stones can be associated with things found in the Superstitions, including landmarks and land forms, but this by itself is an ambivalent arguement, and as Oro, I believe, has offered, the clues may relate to another location.
Click to expand...

I think he suggested south? I haven't seen it referenced on this site, which doesn't mean it isn't mentioned here and I am sure everyone in this thread is well aware of this theory, but the Dillman's place it in Utah, leading to Aztec gold and created by the Spanaird and Moor that wandered around Texas for years. They even claimed to have found the skeleton of Estevan the Moor, I believe. I have definitely noticed with more than than one treasure tale that there appears to be just enough known or let known to send many folks, each as fully convinced, in more than one direction, and not just with location. The lure need not always be shiny providing what it represents is. If the vision of the matured tree is suitably alluring and provides enough promised shelter, the human mind will take an acorn of hope, nurtured only on speculation and desire and fill in the leaves so completely as to shade the sun from the patches of skepticism which once grew around its base as well as making such a stout trunk of oak that neither the axes of evidence known today nor the axes of unknown and new evidence that may be forged tomorrow can chop it down to expose the hollow center and shallow root structure.

Funny thing the human mind and how it works. And often very predictable.
Click to expand...
Your statement above, emphasized, is the keystone of the entire 'lost mine/hidden treasure' realm. Humans are extremely suseptible to disinformation and thought control - that's why they call us sheeple. That's the way we are kept under control in the world at large and it's the reason that so many 'TH' participants are so readily distracted into playing a role in a fantasy game. Things are seldom as they seem.
 

gollum said:
..... See,

There is one very distinct possibility that nobody likes to think about. Maybe the Jesuits returned after their suppression and recovered all their hidden wealth. Could that be why have always so strenuously denied that there are any Jesuit Treasures out there? Maybe they know that they have already recovered most of them?

Just a thought.

Best-Mike
Click to expand...

Bingo. If the SJ cached treasure in the New World, they would have already retrieved it or are content to leave it hidden. Does anyone really believe that if it's true that the SJ cached treasure, that the caches are 'lost'? Knowing the capabilities if the SJ and other similar groups, my opinion would be that the caches are still safely under the control of their original owners. Possibly the army of grasshoppers combing the hills for the caches, if they exist, are combing the wrong hills.
 

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