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This one is pretty much the same....but more than four years old.
Joe Ribaudo Post subject: Inside Information
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:39 pm
Offline
Expert
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 4603
Gary,
Someone who seems to have gathered a good deal of "inside information"
on this case, is Matthew Roberts (Aurum).
Here are some of his better posts from another Forum:
The Stone Map question of authenticity is clouded in a lot of mis information and twisted facts. This is not the result of deception but rather retelling of stories that were part fact and part speculation.
For what it's worth, the FBI never did their own investigation into the Stone Maps. When Alleen Tumlinson sold the maps in 1961 to Clarence Mitchell, it was Mitchell who had the Stone Maps analized by three geologists who worked for the University of California at Los Angeles. Martin Stout was the professor of Geology at UCLA and D.L. Dana and Donald Chance were professors of geology and geoscience at Redlands University in Redlands, California. The three geologists, with help fromthe Redlands University Art History Department, concluded the maps were of an age, more than 100 years old but unable to give an exact age beyond that estimate. Professors Chance and Dana provided Clarence Mitchell with a letter of authenticity stating these findings.
Clarence O. Mitchell was MOEL Inc. He was the President and Chief executive officer of the MOEL Corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of Nevada. Arthur Meyers was the attorney for the corporation. When Clarence Mitchell was under investigation by the State of Nevada for securities violations, the FBI became involved because investments and assets were located outside the State of Nevada.
The FBI never did an investigation into the authenticity of the Stone Maps. They simply took Clarence Mitchell's letter of authenticity and questioned professors Stout, Dana and Chance about their findings. All three professors stood by their original conclusion based upon their earlier investigations, and Professor Dana provided the FBI and State of Nevada with a letter that confirmed their earlier conclusion.
Bob Corbin's comments, merely reflected what the FBI themselves knew about the authenticity of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona. I have known Bob and his family for many years, have been in the mountains on numerous occasions with him and consider him to be honest and above board in all his dealings.
The FBI never confiscated the Stone Maps from MOEL Inc. They merely siezed them as evidence while the securities investigation was ongoing. The maps were returned to Clarence Mitchell following the investigation and it was Mitchell who donated the maps to the Arizona Mineral Museum which today includes the Flagg Foundation. The maps are today, on loan to the Arizona Mineral Museum / Flagg Foundation from MOEL Inc.
Aurum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.
The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.
There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.
The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.
Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.
Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.
At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.
Aurum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't say why some are getting threatening phone calls and messages. I know that the Stone Map topic is a very passionate issue with some folks. For all that is known about the stones, it is overshadowed by the mountain of things that aren't known. The MOEL Corporation and the legal problems that followed only served to cloud the issues even more. There are some very knowledgable people, here, and out there who know a whole lot more about the stones than I do and they guard their knowledge and secrets very seriously.
I feel for the investors who lost money in the MOEL investigation and never got it back. One has to take into account that in the early 1960's, the best these investors could hope to regain from the stone maps was the value Clarence Mitchell paid for them, $1,200. And that was only if someone back then would have paid that for them. We tend to fast forward to today and look at what the stones might bring on todays market after all the publicity of the past 43 years. The prospectus of the MOEL Corporation only promised a return on investment if the maps were acurate and the mines/treasure could be located and would still be in place. It was buyer beware in spades. MOEL wasn't in trouble so much for promising things they couldn't produce, rather they got in trouble for the way they went about selling their stock and for selling without a proper liscense.
My personal take on the whole thing is the government, while skeptical, never had evidence, nor could they prove the stone maps were a fake or that the Tumlinsons or Mitchell had any hand in their creation. That is by no means an endorsement of their authenticity, only the statement that while the government could prove MOEL
didn't follow proper proceedures in the sale of stock, they couldn't prove conclusively the stones were fakes.
Aurum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gollum,
I have to agree with you completely about Alleen Tumlinsons role in the Stone Maps. Without her involvement the stones would have been lost forever. The story of where the stones originated, how and where they were found, as well as the account of the MOEL investigation leave a LOT of unanswered questions. What I have posted is just the little I have learned over the years from Bob Corbin, Martin Stout, Mason Coggins and a man named Robert Miller who now has the personal effects of Clarence O. Mitchell. A letter written in 1962 from Alleen Tumlinson to Clarence Mitchell is a real eye opener. The letter doesn't prove or disprove the authenticity of the Stone Maps or their origin but does point one to some conclusions that few if any Stone Map seekers have contemplated. The Mitchell material is not mine so I cannot comment on what I think. There is ongoing research but where it will lead and what it will uncover is again a big question mark. Nothing that would solve the puzzle of the Stone Maps but there is a possibility it might lead to their origin.
Concerning the other Forum you mentioned. There is no way information such as appears here could ever be posted or considered on that forum, for obvious reasons.
Aurum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what his last statement means, but this is still the best place on the planet to find serious information dealing with the LDM and other legends surrounding the Superstition Mountains, and it follows, of course, that Matthew's informaiton is usually the best of the best.
Joe Ribaudo
Regards:SH.
This one is pretty much the same....but more than four years old.
Joe Ribaudo Post subject: Inside Information
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:39 pm
Offline
Expert
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 4603
Gary,
Someone who seems to have gathered a good deal of "inside information"
on this case, is Matthew Roberts (Aurum).
Here are some of his better posts from another Forum:
The Stone Map question of authenticity is clouded in a lot of mis information and twisted facts. This is not the result of deception but rather retelling of stories that were part fact and part speculation.
For what it's worth, the FBI never did their own investigation into the Stone Maps. When Alleen Tumlinson sold the maps in 1961 to Clarence Mitchell, it was Mitchell who had the Stone Maps analized by three geologists who worked for the University of California at Los Angeles. Martin Stout was the professor of Geology at UCLA and D.L. Dana and Donald Chance were professors of geology and geoscience at Redlands University in Redlands, California. The three geologists, with help fromthe Redlands University Art History Department, concluded the maps were of an age, more than 100 years old but unable to give an exact age beyond that estimate. Professors Chance and Dana provided Clarence Mitchell with a letter of authenticity stating these findings.
Clarence O. Mitchell was MOEL Inc. He was the President and Chief executive officer of the MOEL Corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of Nevada. Arthur Meyers was the attorney for the corporation. When Clarence Mitchell was under investigation by the State of Nevada for securities violations, the FBI became involved because investments and assets were located outside the State of Nevada.
The FBI never did an investigation into the authenticity of the Stone Maps. They simply took Clarence Mitchell's letter of authenticity and questioned professors Stout, Dana and Chance about their findings. All three professors stood by their original conclusion based upon their earlier investigations, and Professor Dana provided the FBI and State of Nevada with a letter that confirmed their earlier conclusion.
Bob Corbin's comments, merely reflected what the FBI themselves knew about the authenticity of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona. I have known Bob and his family for many years, have been in the mountains on numerous occasions with him and consider him to be honest and above board in all his dealings.
The FBI never confiscated the Stone Maps from MOEL Inc. They merely siezed them as evidence while the securities investigation was ongoing. The maps were returned to Clarence Mitchell following the investigation and it was Mitchell who donated the maps to the Arizona Mineral Museum which today includes the Flagg Foundation. The maps are today, on loan to the Arizona Mineral Museum / Flagg Foundation from MOEL Inc.
Aurum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.
The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.
There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.
The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.
Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.
Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.
At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.
Aurum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't say why some are getting threatening phone calls and messages. I know that the Stone Map topic is a very passionate issue with some folks. For all that is known about the stones, it is overshadowed by the mountain of things that aren't known. The MOEL Corporation and the legal problems that followed only served to cloud the issues even more. There are some very knowledgable people, here, and out there who know a whole lot more about the stones than I do and they guard their knowledge and secrets very seriously.
I feel for the investors who lost money in the MOEL investigation and never got it back. One has to take into account that in the early 1960's, the best these investors could hope to regain from the stone maps was the value Clarence Mitchell paid for them, $1,200. And that was only if someone back then would have paid that for them. We tend to fast forward to today and look at what the stones might bring on todays market after all the publicity of the past 43 years. The prospectus of the MOEL Corporation only promised a return on investment if the maps were acurate and the mines/treasure could be located and would still be in place. It was buyer beware in spades. MOEL wasn't in trouble so much for promising things they couldn't produce, rather they got in trouble for the way they went about selling their stock and for selling without a proper liscense.
My personal take on the whole thing is the government, while skeptical, never had evidence, nor could they prove the stone maps were a fake or that the Tumlinsons or Mitchell had any hand in their creation. That is by no means an endorsement of their authenticity, only the statement that while the government could prove MOEL
didn't follow proper proceedures in the sale of stock, they couldn't prove conclusively the stones were fakes.
Aurum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gollum,
I have to agree with you completely about Alleen Tumlinsons role in the Stone Maps. Without her involvement the stones would have been lost forever. The story of where the stones originated, how and where they were found, as well as the account of the MOEL investigation leave a LOT of unanswered questions. What I have posted is just the little I have learned over the years from Bob Corbin, Martin Stout, Mason Coggins and a man named Robert Miller who now has the personal effects of Clarence O. Mitchell. A letter written in 1962 from Alleen Tumlinson to Clarence Mitchell is a real eye opener. The letter doesn't prove or disprove the authenticity of the Stone Maps or their origin but does point one to some conclusions that few if any Stone Map seekers have contemplated. The Mitchell material is not mine so I cannot comment on what I think. There is ongoing research but where it will lead and what it will uncover is again a big question mark. Nothing that would solve the puzzle of the Stone Maps but there is a possibility it might lead to their origin.
Concerning the other Forum you mentioned. There is no way information such as appears here could ever be posted or considered on that forum, for obvious reasons.
Aurum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea what his last statement means, but this is still the best place on the planet to find serious information dealing with the LDM and other legends surrounding the Superstition Mountains, and it follows, of course, that Matthew's informaiton is usually the best of the best.
Joe Ribaudo
Regards:SH.
)
) As long as 60+ is "young ones", I'm in!!!!!!
On the other hand, they do know how to enjoy a good cup of coffee. 
I'll give them one less audience member.
