The Peralta Stones

Okay, maybe I might stand out some in the crowed since I'm wearing my hip waders tonight. P.U. it is getting really deep now.

Anyone who has spent even one day in the heat of the Arizona wilderness, would have the smarts to know that a full grown man, sitting in the shade, will go through at least two gallons of water in one day and another 1/2 gallon in the evening; that is at least if they are not cartoon characters or worse.

Somebody help me out here with a little math problem. "How many gallons of water does it take to fill a number of burros hauling ore back and forth a 1/4 mile from the funnel to the smelter each way; where the blacksmith is sharpening and re-hardening hammers and double jack drill points all day; day after day dipping them in water fresh out of the furnace. He is drinking more than anyone else at that. Then there are the tenders who are in the open and the guards who sit at each of several high points on all of the incoming trails.

Let's look at the Peraltas as though they knew what they are doing and that with such smarts, they have planned the trip right and brought at least 200 burros since they have to risk their very lives over many weeks of hardships just to get to and from the mine and make it back to Mexico alive carrying a long haul and a butt load of gear, guns and various heavy iron utensils. Horses need water every day too so let's start with 40 plus Spanish steeds and work nags as well. Oh ya, and there ain't nothing to eat in the Supertions but at least the proverbial box of rocks we hope. Oh , excuse me back to the water. There ain't no soda fountain down the street; in fact there ain't no street or roads within hundreds of miles; my how that trail dust does make an animal even more thirsty. Now we are in the rockiest sections of the mountain trails; my how the stone bakes your carcus with the worst of radiant exposure. Shall I continue? Na,...........Stew and beans takes lots of water to feed your crew of 80 plus hard working muscle bound miners, animal tenders and of course the guards changing shifts again and again like the rest of the crew; again and again for everything for several months at least.

My oh my; Where ever is that darn mine(s). The horsey is shackled; pasture + horsey = water on location.

also, the Peralta paper maps translate to say "The priest who stands by the river" One crucified (marker clue)
 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!
What? They were riding on horses?

Are you sure they weren't using coconuts?

Because coconuts have milk!

The coconuts could have been carried by flocks of trained swallows gripping the coconuts by the husk!

But in order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second...

Monty-Python-Holy-Grail-02.jpg

Infosponge
 

the African swallows probably collect them and the European swallows bring them back as souvenirs in spring after their winter holiday,

i never thought of the coconut milk it's probably that that's hit me on the head a time or two (leaky coconuts???) I'll have a taste next time it happens and let you know, :laughing7: :laughing7:

furness
 

Good morning twisted fork, An excellent post, but I do have a few things to say about it. Your water consumption estimate is based upon a city gentleman right out of the office, not someone that lives in the desert.. If those requirements were necessary for one acclimated to the area, the West would never have been explored. How did the Indians cross the vast areas of the west on foot?

As to feed for the animals, all of the reports that I have seen, claim that the superstitions were covered with lush grasses in the early days, also water was easily to be found.

Temp? I have ridden a mule down in deep canyons with the temp hitting 130+, with both the mule and I covered with sweat flies, in your eyes and nose, the mule constantly shaking her head, flopping those long ears. When you finally round a bend and see an Indian shack with a veranda, you happily dismount, and when the owner dips a dirty glass, with an equally dirty hand, into an olla with a green scum on it, you have no problem downing it, but you do not need a quart or more of water, even though you are completely soaked with sweat and your clothes are white from the lost salt.

Once I backpacked solo from San Felipe at the head of the gulf into the Sierras del Gigante. It took two days to reach them, I only had a two qt forestry canteen. yet it never ran dry from drinking. I admit that I was completely acclimated through training and checked out in desert survival before I attempted the trip, it was well worth it. I have posted on that trip elsewhere in the forums.

However, as you mention, it would be suicide for one right out of an office to do the same. The peraltas, and their mule drivers, were completely acclimated and used to the desert, they were d--- tough people.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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some of us do Mr's O

i wrote after your last post, the photo is from the Holy grail

and what the coconuts are for,

furness
 

I have to echo RDT's comments that from what I understand, the Superstitions were likely much different in regards to grasses and water 150 years ago. There was also an earthquake at one point which apparently sealed off a number of springs.
 

Beth,

I have seen MPATHG so many times I can literally quote most of the movie verbatim. I can't watch it with anybody else. There are two movies like that for me; "MPATHG" and "Rocky Horror Picture Show."

'Brave Sir Robin ran away
bravely ran away away
when danger reared its' ugly head
he bravely turned his tail and fled
I say brave Sir Robin turned about
and gallantly he chickened out
bravely taking to his feet
he beat a very brave retreat
bravely running brave Sir Robin....."


Best-Mike
 

gollum said:
Beth,

I have seen MPATHG so many times I can literally quote most of the movie verbatim. I can't watch it with anybody else. There are two movies like that for me; "MPATHG" and "Rocky Horror Picture Show."

'Brave Sir Robin ran away
bravely ran away away
when danger reared its' ugly head
he bravely turned his tail and fled
I say brave Sir Robin turned about
and gallantly he chickened out
bravely taking to his feet
he beat a very brave retreat
bravely running brave Sir Robin....."


Best-Mike
Click to expand...

Hmmmm ... I'll bet you'd appreciate the Flashman series of books written by George MacDonald Fraser. Supremely humorous.
 

Monty Python Quote: “Jesus did. I was hopping along, when suddenly he comes and "cures me." One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next moment me livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by your leave. Look. I'm not saying that being a leper was a bowl of cherries. But it was a living. I mean, you try waving muscular suntanned limbs in people's faces demanding compassion"
 

All,

Here are a number of posts that came from Kraig Roberts (Aurum), also know as Matthew Roberts:
______________________________________________________________________

[The Stone Map question of authenticity is clouded in a lot of mis information and twisted facts. This is not the result of deception but rather retelling of stories that were part fact and part speculation.

For what it's worth, the FBI never did their own investigation into the Stone Maps. When Alleen Tumlinson sold the maps in 1961 to Clarence Mitchell, it was Mitchell who had the Stone Maps analized by three geologists who worked for the University of California at Los Angeles. Martin Stout was the professor of Geology at UCLA and D.L. Dana and Donald Chance were professors of geology and geoscience at Redlands University in Redlands, California. The three geologists, with help fromthe Redlands University Art History Department, concluded the maps were of an age, more than 100 years old but unable to give an exact age beyond that estimate. Professors Chance and Dana provided Clarence Mitchell with a letter of authenticity stating these findings.

Clarence O. Mitchell was MOEL Inc. He was the President and Chief executive officer of the MOEL Corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of Nevada. Arthur Meyers was the attorney for the corporation. When Clarence Mitchell was under investigation by the State of Nevada for securities violations, the FBI became involved because investments and assets were located outside the State of Nevada.

The FBI never did an investigation into the authenticity of the Stone Maps. They simply took Clarence Mitchell's letter of authenticity and questioned professors Stout, Dana and Chance about their findings. All three professors stood by their original conclusion based upon their earlier investigations, and Professor Dana provided the FBI and State of Nevada with a letter that confirmed their earlier conclusion.

Bob Corbin's comments, merely reflected what the FBI themselves knew about the authenticity of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona. I have known Bob and his family for many years, have been in the mountains on numerous occasions with him and consider him to be honest and above board in all his dealings.

The FBI never confiscated the Stone Maps from MOEL Inc. They merely siezed them as evidence while the securities investigation was ongoing. The maps were returned to Clarence Mitchell following the investigation and it was Mitchell who donated the maps to the Arizona Mineral Museum which today includes the Flagg Foundation. The maps are today, on loan to the Arizona Mineral Museum / Flagg Foundation from MOEL Inc.

Aurum

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.

The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.

There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.

The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.

Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.

Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.

At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.

Aurum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't say why some are getting threatening phone calls and messages. I know that the Stone Map topic is a very passionate issue with some folks. For all that is known about the stones, it is overshadowed by the mountain of things that aren't known. The MOEL Corporation and the legal problems that followed only served to cloud the issues even more. There are some very knowledgable people, here, and out there who know a whole lot more about the stones than I do and they guard their knowledge and secrets very seriously.

I feel for the investors who lost money in the MOEL investigation and never got it back. One has to take into account that in the early 1960's, the best these investors could hope to regain from the stone maps was the value Clarence Mitchell paid for them, $1,200. And that was only if someone back then would have paid that for them. We tend to fast forward to today and look at what the stones might bring on todays market after all the publicity of the past 43 years. The prospectus of the MOEL Corporation only promised a return on investment if the maps were acurate and the mines/treasure could be located and would still be in place. It was buyer beware in spades. MOEL wasn't in trouble so much for promising things they couldn't produce, rather they got in trouble for the way they went about selling their stock and for selling without a proper liscense.

My personal take on the whole thing is the government, while skeptical, never had evidence, nor could they prove the stone maps were a fake or that the Tumlinsons or Mitchell had any hand in their creation. That is by no means an endorsement of their authenticity, only the statement that while the government could prove MOEL
didn't follow proper proceedures in the sale of stock, they couldn't prove conclusively the stones were fakes.

Aurum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gollum,

I have to agree with you completely about Alleen Tumlinsons role in the Stone Maps. Without her involvement the stones would have been lost forever. The story of where the stones originated, how and where they were found, as well as the account of the MOEL investigation leave a LOT of unanswered questions. What I have posted is just the little I have learned over the years from Bob Corbin, Martin Stout, Mason Coggins and a man named Robert Miller who now has the personal effects of Clarence O. Mitchell. A letter written in 1962 from Alleen Tumlinson to Clarence Mitchell is a real eye opener. The letter doesn't prove or disprove the authenticity of the Stone Maps or their origin but does point one to some conclusions that few if any Stone Map seekers have contemplated. The Mitchell material is not mine so I cannot comment on what I think. There is ongoing research but where it will lead and what it will uncover is again a big question mark. Nothing that would solve the puzzle of the Stone Maps but there is a possibility it might lead to their origin.

Concerning the other Forum you mentioned. There is no way information such as appears here could ever be posted or considered on that forum, for obvious reasons.

Aurum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gollum,

You are on the right track with your information, I don't know where you got your information on Professor Stout but you are half right where he is concerned. I was going on memeory when I said he was at UCLA and you were correct when you said he was professor at CSULA in Los Angeles. Professor Martin retired about 1990 from CS LosAngeles and instructed field geology for UC LosAngeles for several years before his death but not with full professor status. The reason Stout and the others were approached involving the Stone Maps is obvious if your information is solid. I don't know where you got the idea the three geology professors were the three most prominent professors in California ? That is right out of left field and in the field of geology, while they were all very good at their specific geology fields, they would barely be mentioned in California's top 100.

Stout was a field geologist who did extensive study of the mineral belt of central Arizona and was well known locally in the 1950's and 1960's. He was the primary contact for Clarence Mitchell when Mitchell decided to have the Stone Maps analized. Professors Chance and Dana became involved due to their association with Professor Stout. Dana was a palo-geologist and Professor Chance was the head of the geology Department at Redlands and had strong ties to it's art history archives. Do you know Clarence Mitchell's background other than he was an acquaintance of Travis Tumlinson ? If you do, then you understand his association with Martin Stout.

One thing you have to understand is that while the Stone Maps are well known to some of us and a big deal and big part of some of our lives, to professor's Stout, Dana and Chance, they were just a blip on their screen, 44 years ago. They came into their lives for a very brief moment and then left, never to be seen or cared about again. None of these professor's had any ties or interest in the stones outside of being asked to make a determination of their age.

I understand your desire to absolutely verify every aspect of the Stone Map history and wish you luck. I think that outside of the Tumlinson's themselves, it was Clarence Mitchell, Arthur Meyers and possibly Mason Coggins who knew the most of their history. Several people today are quite knowledgable but they will be the first to admit that many important questions still remain unanswered. Some may never be answered no matter how hard one looks.

I have no interest in the stones myself. I don't know where they lead, who made them or if the Peralta's were ever involved. I have my own opinion as to their origin and authenticity but that is just my opinion. I don't really care what you think about any information I have. All I know about the Stone Maps comes from a very small handful of individuals and I believe what I learned from them and that is good enough for me. You can believe whatever you want and I'm still good with it. I'm sorry about the attacks that are going on and hope you know I have nothing to do with any of them.

Aurum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oro,

"I have no interest in the stones myself."

You misinterpret my meaning. If the stones are real or fake it doesn't affect me either way. I have no stake in the outcome. That doesn't mean I am not curious about them. I'm somewhat older than you youngsters so this story is not something I stumbled across one day in a treasure hunter magazine. I grew up with this story, the people, and dozens of others relating to the mountains and the Dutchman mine. My biggest interest in the stone Maps doesn't come from my own research, rather from the research of some old friends who were passionately interested in them. Al Reser, an old Dutch hunter, studied those maps for decades and was writing a book about them when he passed away. Some of the most knowledgeable Stone Map people alive today work from the knowledge and information Al Reser compiled during his lifetime and passed along. Al knew the Tumlinsons, Clarence Mitchell and many of the principles in the story. I sat with Al one night in the bunkhouse out at my ranch while he spread out his topo maps and tried to show me how to follow the directions on the Stone Maps. Try as I might, I just couldn't catch on to what he was telling me. But I did know that Al knew what he was talking about and that was what counted.

In regards to the geologists who analized the maps. I think the part most people miss is, it was not just the weathering of the carved rock, or the lichen growing on it that told the age of the stone carvings. The type of rock was important, and if that rock was present in the area where the carvings were found. if it wasn't, where was that type of rock present. Different types of rock react differently to carving. Some carve cleanly and wear slowly, others carve poorly and weather quickly. It was the palo-geology and art history expertise offered by Redlands University that I believe was the reason for the analysis being done there. The clincher came, I believe , when the question was asked, are there any other examples of this type of rock carving anywhere else in the world, and if so, where, and has it been positively dated, and finally, how does it compare to the Tumlinson's Stone Maps.

Aurum]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will all have to read these posts with your own opinions concerning the reliability of Kraig Roberts statements. I believe most of you will trust what he has written.

I would like to see some of the documentation he speaks of as fact. My own personal belief is that they don't exist, and probably never did.

My apologies for moving the topic away from Monte Python, please continue.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Cactusjumper,

Very interesting, and thank you for sharing!

SFNM,

Very fitting video. Everything you have been saying and claiming is crystal clear now! No its not! Yes it is! No its not!

Infosponge
 

Hi Group,

Joe is right; lets get back to the stone maps as I assume that this is the correct forum. No fault SFNM, I must admit I was also tempted to follow suit. My son and I both love British humor.

Joe, The articles by Matthew are more along the line of what I have understood and actually finding the old documents would even be a challenge for my research team, even though I haven't tried as of yet. I believe that trying to prove whether the maps are the real McCoy or not in no way changes the fact that the information portrayed on the stone maps will and does lead to a number of treasures (if a number of symbols had been left intact on the horse stone). I have known this to be that case for a number of years. The stone maps in of themselves will not lead anyone to any treasure as certain landmarks (SARA) must be used.

Elephant Butte was to throw people off of the true path; see photo attached to topic # 2815, this elephant is the correct SARA as it is adjacent to the stone house. Those familiar with the Superstitions will soon realize where this SARA is located.

I will return with more stone map data later as the mine requests my personal attention this coming week. We happen to have a major interested in our two mines, its about time!

Thank-you Joe,

Ellie B
 

cactusjumper said:
All,

Here are a number of posts that came from Kraig Roberts (Aurum), also know as Matthew Roberts:
______________________________________________________________________

[The Stone Map question of authenticity is clouded in a lot of mis information and twisted facts. This is not the result of deception but rather retelling of stories that were part fact and part speculation.

For what it's worth, the FBI never did their own investigation into the Stone Maps. When Alleen Tumlinson sold the maps in 1961 to Clarence Mitchell, it was Mitchell who had the Stone Maps analized by three geologists who worked for the University of California at Los Angeles. Martin Stout was the professor of Geology at UCLA and D.L. Dana and Donald Chance were professors of geology and geoscience at Redlands University in Redlands, California. The three geologists, with help fromthe Redlands University Art History Department, concluded the maps were of an age, more than 100 years old but unable to give an exact age beyond that estimate. Professors Chance and Dana provided Clarence Mitchell with a letter of authenticity stating these findings.

Clarence O. Mitchell was MOEL Inc. He was the President and Chief executive officer of the MOEL Corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of Nevada. Arthur Meyers was the attorney for the corporation. When Clarence Mitchell was under investigation by the State of Nevada for securities violations, the FBI became involved because investments and assets were located outside the State of Nevada.

The FBI never did an investigation into the authenticity of the Stone Maps. They simply took Clarence Mitchell's letter of authenticity and questioned professors Stout, Dana and Chance about their findings. All three professors stood by their original conclusion based upon their earlier investigations, and Professor Dana provided the FBI and State of Nevada with a letter that confirmed their earlier conclusion.

Bob Corbin's comments, merely reflected what the FBI themselves knew about the authenticity of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona. I have known Bob and his family for many years, have been in the mountains on numerous occasions with him and consider him to be honest and above board in all his dealings.

The FBI never confiscated the Stone Maps from MOEL Inc. They merely siezed them as evidence while the securities investigation was ongoing. The maps were returned to Clarence Mitchell following the investigation and it was Mitchell who donated the maps to the Arizona Mineral Museum which today includes the Flagg Foundation. The maps are today, on loan to the Arizona Mineral Museum / Flagg Foundation from MOEL Inc.

Aurum

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.

The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.

There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.

The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.

Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.

Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.

At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.

Aurum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't say why some are getting threatening phone calls and messages. I know that the Stone Map topic is a very passionate issue with some folks. For all that is known about the stones, it is overshadowed by the mountain of things that aren't known. The MOEL Corporation and the legal problems that followed only served to cloud the issues even more. There are some very knowledgable people, here, and out there who know a whole lot more about the stones than I do and they guard their knowledge and secrets very seriously.

I feel for the investors who lost money in the MOEL investigation and never got it back. One has to take into account that in the early 1960's, the best these investors could hope to regain from the stone maps was the value Clarence Mitchell paid for them, $1,200. And that was only if someone back then would have paid that for them. We tend to fast forward to today and look at what the stones might bring on todays market after all the publicity of the past 43 years. The prospectus of the MOEL Corporation only promised a return on investment if the maps were acurate and the mines/treasure could be located and would still be in place. It was buyer beware in spades. MOEL wasn't in trouble so much for promising things they couldn't produce, rather they got in trouble for the way they went about selling their stock and for selling without a proper liscense.

My personal take on the whole thing is the government, while skeptical, never had evidence, nor could they prove the stone maps were a fake or that the Tumlinsons or Mitchell had any hand in their creation. That is by no means an endorsement of their authenticity, only the statement that while the government could prove MOEL
didn't follow proper proceedures in the sale of stock, they couldn't prove conclusively the stones were fakes.

Aurum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gollum,

I have to agree with you completely about Alleen Tumlinsons role in the Stone Maps. Without her involvement the stones would have been lost forever. The story of where the stones originated, how and where they were found, as well as the account of the MOEL investigation leave a LOT of unanswered questions. What I have posted is just the little I have learned over the years from Bob Corbin, Martin Stout, Mason Coggins and a man named Robert Miller who now has the personal effects of Clarence O. Mitchell. A letter written in 1962 from Alleen Tumlinson to Clarence Mitchell is a real eye opener. The letter doesn't prove or disprove the authenticity of the Stone Maps or their origin but does point one to some conclusions that few if any Stone Map seekers have contemplated. The Mitchell material is not mine so I cannot comment on what I think. There is ongoing research but where it will lead and what it will uncover is again a big question mark. Nothing that would solve the puzzle of the Stone Maps but there is a possibility it might lead to their origin.

Concerning the other Forum you mentioned. There is no way information such as appears here could ever be posted or considered on that forum, for obvious reasons.

Aurum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gollum,

You are on the right track with your information, I don't know where you got your information on Professor Stout but you are half right where he is concerned. I was going on memeory when I said he was at UCLA and you were correct when you said he was professor at CSULA in Los Angeles. Professor Martin retired about 1990 from CS LosAngeles and instructed field geology for UC LosAngeles for several years before his death but not with full professor status. The reason Stout and the others were approached involving the Stone Maps is obvious if your information is solid. I don't know where you got the idea the three geology professors were the three most prominent professors in California ? That is right out of left field and in the field of geology, while they were all very good at their specific geology fields, they would barely be mentioned in California's top 100.

Stout was a field geologist who did extensive study of the mineral belt of central Arizona and was well known locally in the 1950's and 1960's. He was the primary contact for Clarence Mitchell when Mitchell decided to have the Stone Maps analized. Professors Chance and Dana became involved due to their association with Professor Stout. Dana was a palo-geologist and Professor Chance was the head of the geology Department at Redlands and had strong ties to it's art history archives. Do you know Clarence Mitchell's background other than he was an acquaintance of Travis Tumlinson ? If you do, then you understand his association with Martin Stout.

One thing you have to understand is that while the Stone Maps are well known to some of us and a big deal and big part of some of our lives, to professor's Stout, Dana and Chance, they were just a blip on their screen, 44 years ago. They came into their lives for a very brief moment and then left, never to be seen or cared about again. None of these professor's had any ties or interest in the stones outside of being asked to make a determination of their age.

I understand your desire to absolutely verify every aspect of the Stone Map history and wish you luck. I think that outside of the Tumlinson's themselves, it was Clarence Mitchell, Arthur Meyers and possibly Mason Coggins who knew the most of their history. Several people today are quite knowledgable but they will be the first to admit that many important questions still remain unanswered. Some may never be answered no matter how hard one looks.

I have no interest in the stones myself. I don't know where they lead, who made them or if the Peralta's were ever involved. I have my own opinion as to their origin and authenticity but that is just my opinion. I don't really care what you think about any information I have. All I know about the Stone Maps comes from a very small handful of individuals and I believe what I learned from them and that is good enough for me. You can believe whatever you want and I'm still good with it. I'm sorry about the attacks that are going on and hope you know I have nothing to do with any of them.

Aurum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oro,

"I have no interest in the stones myself."

You misinterpret my meaning. If the stones are real or fake it doesn't affect me either way. I have no stake in the outcome. That doesn't mean I am not curious about them. I'm somewhat older than you youngsters so this story is not something I stumbled across one day in a treasure hunter magazine. I grew up with this story, the people, and dozens of others relating to the mountains and the Dutchman mine. My biggest interest in the stone Maps doesn't come from my own research, rather from the research of some old friends who were passionately interested in them. Al Reser, an old Dutch hunter, studied those maps for decades and was writing a book about them when he passed away. Some of the most knowledgeable Stone Map people alive today work from the knowledge and information Al Reser compiled during his lifetime and passed along. Al knew the Tumlinsons, Clarence Mitchell and many of the principles in the story. I sat with Al one night in the bunkhouse out at my ranch while he spread out his topo maps and tried to show me how to follow the directions on the Stone Maps. Try as I might, I just couldn't catch on to what he was telling me. But I did know that Al knew what he was talking about and that was what counted.

In regards to the geologists who analized the maps. I think the part most people miss is, it was not just the weathering of the carved rock, or the lichen growing on it that told the age of the stone carvings. The type of rock was important, and if that rock was present in the area where the carvings were found. if it wasn't, where was that type of rock present. Different types of rock react differently to carving. Some carve cleanly and wear slowly, others carve poorly and weather quickly. It was the palo-geology and art history expertise offered by Redlands University that I believe was the reason for the analysis being done there. The clincher came, I believe , when the question was asked, are there any other examples of this type of rock carving anywhere else in the world, and if so, where, and has it been positively dated, and finally, how does it compare to the Tumlinson's Stone Maps.

Aurum]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will all have to read these posts with your own opinions concerning the reliability of Kraig Roberts statements. I believe most of you will trust what he has written.

I would like to see some of the documentation he speaks of as fact. My own personal belief is that they don't exist, and probably never did.

My apologies for moving the topic away from Monte Python, please continue.

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...
great read , thanks CJ , just in case you delite it ...LOL
 

Hi All,

I forgot to attach the real Elephant Butte landmark located on the west side of the horse's nostril (small hump) just above Queen Creek depicting the drawn horse as indicated by the 1900-02 Florence Topo map. See map attached to Topic # 2640.

Have a great weekend!

Ellie B
 

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