The Peralta Stones

[Springfield]

.... If your theory flies in the face of KNOWN history, I immediately become incredulous.

Best-Mike

Bingo. A fork in the road - one well-traveled (credible), one less traveled (incredible). As you say, Mike, the world has no shortage of ranters, but once in awhile somebody tries to tell you the world isn't flat. Then what?

 

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[Cubfan64]

Something that continues to strike me regarding the Stone Maps is how different people who have examined them up close can have 180 degree different opinions regarding how they were "carved" (for lack of a better word).

I've seen quotes here by archaeological "experts," dutch hunters and just casual observers that don't agree AT ALL on something as simple as how the "carvings" were made.

How in the heck can some people see ABSOLUTE PROOF POSITIVE dimple marks where a drill bit started a symbol when the next person sees ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS of any dimple marks? Is it just a case of people seeing what they want to see, or ??

I spoke to someone who saw the stones in person the other day when they were available to be handled and he was disappointed. Over time he had formed the opinion that the stones were very old and probably related to some "treasure" in the Superstitions, but after viewing them in person, he's now of the feeling that they were "carved" using a dremel type of tool because the dimple marks were so easily observed.

I just find it amazing how so many different people can see something so completely different!

 

[Ellie Baba]

Here we go,

Below is a standard ordinary topographic map. Anyone can purchase these four (4) maps through various map stores on line or visit your local USGS center. The maps are named:

Florence S/E 7.5, Picketpost 7.5, Iron Mountain 7.5 and Weaver's Needle 7.5.
Let's see if you all can outline the horse's head and neck on these four maps (and he is in fact located on all four).

Sometime later I will provide you with a tracing of the horse's head on this same map, and later we will look at the 1900 & 1902 Florence 1:125,000 Top map images.

Any questions?

Ellie Baba

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

Hopefully a smaller version will appear below'

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

Place the eye of the horse at Aylor's Arch. The top of the head, the neck and the back are seen on Bull Pass. The rump of the horse are the two small hills on the back side of Black Top Mesa. See my map. It's all one picture, not pieces here and there.

I did this years ago.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

.... If your theory flies in the face of KNOWN history, I immediately become incredulous.

Best-Mike

Bingo. A fork in the road - one well-traveled (credible), one less traveled (incredible). As you say, Mike, the world has no shortage of ranters, but once in awhile somebody tries to tell you the world isn't flat. Then what?

Spring,

Nothing at all like Flat Earth. When I say KNOWN HISTORY, I am referring to things like I have seen on TNet countless times like;

"The Jesuits were not living up to their agreement with the Crown by sending the King of Spain 1/5th of all the gold and silver they were mining is why they were suppressed."

Any time I see somebody's theory that includes a statement like that, their whole theory goes out the door for me. It says that they haven't taken the time to research even the most basic historical facts of the time.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Something that continues to strike me regarding the Stone Maps is how different people who have examined them up close can have 180 degree different opinions regarding how they were "carved" (for lack of a better word).

I've seen quotes here by archaeological "experts," dutch hunters and just casual observers that don't agree AT ALL on something as simple as how the "carvings" were made.

How in the heck can some people see ABSOLUTE PROOF POSITIVE dimple marks where a drill bit started a symbol when the next person sees ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS of any dimple marks? Is it just a case of people seeing what they want to see, or ??

I spoke to someone who saw the stones in person the other day when they were available to be handled and he was disappointed. Over time he had formed the opinion that the stones were very old and probably related to some "treasure" in the Superstitions, but after viewing them in person, he's now of the feeling that they were "carved" using a dremel type of tool because the dimple marks were so easily observed.

I just find it amazing how so many different people can see something so completely different!

I was there taking pictures as well. Didn't affect in any way how I feel about the stones.

Ask your friend to explain to you the difference between ELECTRIC Drill Dimples and HAND Drill Dimples. ALL drills work basically the same way. The only difference between an electric drill and a hand drill is that the bit is turned by a motor.

I'll tell you something else about Stone Picfest 2010. Nobody else there said anything about machine sanding or drill dimples until I started shooting that one. Somebody asked me what I was taking those Macro Pics of and I told them. All of a sudden, there were three or four people taking those same pics. I was also looking for evidence of that "Machine Sanding" the Arizona Highways Article talked about, but could not find that. Nobody else there was looking for them. I got to examine the stones up close under different lighting. Even got to use my Digital Microscope on them. The pics below are of the dimple and the Horse under Black Light.

One thing you can tell your friend is that there is absolutely no evidence of DREMEL markings. The grooves look like they were scratched into the surface by a knife, awl, or something similar.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Listening for a rational explanation ! A slip in the chisleing won't suffice. The others are cut too well."

You have to realize that any mistakes that were made happened in direct relation to how many times the Chivas Regal bottle got tipped in the process. You also have to realize that the creators were artists. For the most part, they did very fine work.....taking the Chivas into consideration.

That's as simple as it gets, and easy for most of us to understand.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Don Jose,

"Listening for a rational explanation ! A slip in the chisleing won't suffice. The others are cut too well."

You have to realize that any mistakes that were made happened in direct relation to how many times the Chivas Regal bottle got tipped in the process. You also have to realize that the creators were artists. For the most part, they did very fine work.....taking the Chivas into consideration.

That's as simple as it gets, and easy for most of us to understand.

Take care,

Joe

Absolutely! As long as we agree with your interpretation of them! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike - those are great detailed photos! I appreciate your comments (on this as well as other subjects) mostly because it seems as though you go into things without any preconceived notions and then just let your discoveries lead to your conclusions.

I haven't seen the stones myself, and even if I did I don't any background to evaluate them. I would tend to agree with you that it would be tough if not impossible to tell the difference between a power drill mark and a hand drill (of whatever kind was available).

Just a quick question regarding your thoughts of someone making the carvings/grooves by scraping a knife, awl or something similar based on a template of some kind. Wouldn't it be extremely difficult to get uniform depths in the grooves by doing something like that? Do the grooves appear to be fairly even in depth or really all across the board?

Thanks

 

[gollum]

I don't think it would be that difficult. If you start at one end of the groove and slowly drag the implement along the length, it seems that it would be fairly even.

Look at the picture of the dimple. Just below the dimple, you will see where the scratching tool jumped outside the groove a bit, but went back in at the tip. Dremel tools don't do that. When they jump out of a groove, they shoot off to one side or the other. They don't keep following the groove.

Also, if they were routed, the bottom of the grooves would be flat. They are not. They are like a smooth "V".

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

.... Also, if they were routed, the bottom of the grooves would be flat. They are not. They are like a smooth "V".

Best-Mike

I'm not saying they were routed, but there are v-groove router bits.

 

[coazon de oro]

Fellow PSM's Private Investigators, The Tumlinson brothers owned and held this stones for a few years. Aside from the original scrubbing the stones went through when found, we don't know if any of the Tumlinson's went over any of the grooves with anything else. Homar

 

[gollum]

.... Also, if they were routed, the bottom of the grooves would be flat. They are not. They are like a smooth "V".

Best-Mike

I'm not saying they were routed, but there are v-groove router bits.

That is true, but the problem with routing rock (even sandstone) is how many bits you would go through. Most stone carving today is done by sand or water blasting. Also, I think routing would cause a LOT of chipping along the edge of the grooves. I'm not a stonemason, but I can tell you they don't look power cut.

Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I cannot believe that there is all this conversation about the type of writing, grooves, the starting points, etc., and that there ARE professionals
that have looked at the stones, and have written their conclusions.

I'm not sure why someone should take a novice's opinion, when the Archeologists and Geologists from Desert Archaeology - experts in the field,
have already said, in no uncertain terms, that pretty much nothing is correct about the stones. (and they specifically mention the starter points,
the style of drawing, writing, the witch being incorrect, etc.).

And, there is a difference between electric and old hand starter bits (which rotated in both directions).

Beth

 

[somehiker]

I cannot believe that there is all this conversation about the type of writing, grooves, the starting points, etc., and that there ARE professionals
that have looked at the stones, and have written their conclusions.

I'm not sure why someone should take a novice's opinion, when the Archeologists and Geologists from Desert Archaeology - experts in the field,
have already said, in no uncertain terms, that pretty much nothing is correct about the stones. (and they specifically mention the starter points,
the style of drawing, writing, the witch being incorrect, etc.).

And, there is a difference between electric and old hand starter bits (which rotated in both directions).

Beth

A nicely written opinion by another expert.
Where would we be today without the "novices" of history.

http://www.adrianberry.net/experts.htm

Regards:SH.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Ellie,

Place the eye of the horse at Aylor's Arch. The top of the head, the neck and the back are seen on Bull Pass. The rump of the horse are the two small hills on the back side of Black Top Mesa. See my map. It's all one picture, not pieces here and there.

I did this years ago.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Were can I find your map? NOTE: TYPO, I had earlier stated Florence S/E 7.5 Topo, Should be Florebce Junction &.5 Topo

Ellie B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

I have had a long, hot, rough, butt-kicken day! I missed the spell check cause I was in a hurry. The correct map is known as the "Florence Junction 7.5 Topo".

I appreciate the comments on how the stone maps may have been constructed, etc. I do agree with Mike on the drag method with a metal object of some type that was used to create the images engraved on the stone maps.

Great observation. Also notice how Mike placed the light at the left lower edge of the map. As you can see the shadows created by the carved relief produces different effects (notice the B-8).

Ellie B

 

[Springfield]

I cannot believe that there is all this conversation about the type of writing, grooves, the starting points, etc., and that there ARE professionals
that have looked at the stones, and have written their conclusions.

I'm not sure why someone should take a novice's opinion, when the Archeologists and Geologists from Desert Archaeology - experts in the field,
have already said, in no uncertain terms, that pretty much nothing is correct about the stones. (and they specifically mention the starter points, the style of drawing, writing, the witch being incorrect, etc.).

And, there is a difference between electric and old hand starter bits (which rotated in both directions).

Beth

Well now, the stones are as 'correct' as they can be - after all, they exist as they are, don't they? With all due respect to the pros from Dover, their opinions may be based on criteria that may or may not be pertinent.

 

[somehiker]

It doesn't take more than a cursory inspection of the stones to see that the lines and other markings vary in both width and depth.A variety of hand tools,with tips sharpened by chance to different profiles.Possibly rock drill bits as well as other kinds of pointed instruments.As I have suggested in the past,some of the markings may have been started with a chisel and finished by scraping.
Some of the better photos for comparison are the high contrast B/W Life Magazine series.The larger photos appear to have been shot in a studio setting,with multiple source lighting.

Regards:SH.