The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Kemmy,

We are like school on Saturdays................................NO CLASS! HAHAHA

SH,

I calls 'em likes I sees 'em!

Best-Mike

 

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[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

The """"((((Capture of Santa Fe))))"""" (also known as the Battle of Santa Fe and Battle of Cañoncito) took place near Santa Fe, New Mexico, the capital of the Mexican Province of New Mexico, during the Mexican-American War on """"((((8th))))"""" of August through 14th of August 1846. """"((((No shots were fired.))))"""" The """"((((----"New" Mexicans----))))"""" ((((put up no organized resistance till)))) the """"((((Taos Revolt))))"""" in early """"((((1847.))))""""

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

The Mexicans and the Apache did fight in battles together, as allies. The battles took place in New Mexico during the Taos Revolt of 1847. Other than that, I can't think of another such partnership of Apache and Mexicans.

While I don't see SFNM's posts, I do read the quotes. He is quite correct on his historical facts in this particular case.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Gentlemen,

The Mexicans and the Apache did fight in battles together, as allies. The battles took place in New Mexico during the Taos Revolt of 1847. Other than that, I can't think of another such partnership of Apache and Mexicans.

While I don't see SFNM's posts, I do read the quotes. He is quite correct on his historical facts in this particular case.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Are you certain of this? I can find nothing stating the Apache had anything to do with the Mexicans. According to the New Mexico Office of the State Historian:

Early in the morning of January 19 a newly-formed group of Hispanic and Taos Indian rebels under the leadership of Pablo Montoya, a vecino of Taos, and Tomás (Tomasito) Romero, a Taos Pueblo member, broke into Bent’s house and killed him

That passage quite clearly states that the rebel Indians were from the Pueblo Tribe. Pablo Montoya was described as a "VECINO". Here is the description of a Vecino:

"In Spanish-speaking areas, a vecino (Spanish for neighbor) is a person that has a house and home in a town or city and contributes to its expenses. In the Spanish Empire these were often the encomenderos holding land in the surrounding countryside with a house within a nearby city."

Does that REALLY sound like a description of an Apache?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I am sure, but don't even know if I have a source at home. Pueblo allies would probably be how it will usually be found but, as I remember it, Native American Allies was what it actually was. That included the Apache in the Taos area.

I have a book, I think it's called "Apache, Navajo and Spaniard....somewhere. That might be my dimly remembered source. I will try to find it.

In the meantime, I remain fairly certain.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Most versions of the story just use the term "Indian Allies", but when they also describe one of the Indians as a vecino, I can promise you that he was not an Apache. The Apache and Pueblo Indians were also mortal enemies.

I found two sources that actually said APACHE, along with Ute, Puebla, Comanche, and Kiowa. Most sources just say Puebla.

Not sure yet, but I may concede the point. I still have trouble with thinking the Apache and Comanche would ally themselves with the people they had been murdering for the previous two hundred years.

Best-Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

""""((((Not sure yet, but I may concede the point. I still have """"((((trouble with "thinking"))))"""" the Apache and Comanche would ally themselves with the people they had been murdering for the previous two hundred years.))))""""

Mike -------- """""((((What people """"((((think,))))"""" said Abraham Lincoln, "is more important than what actually is so.))))"""""

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Generally speaking, I don't disagree with your statements. This was a specific instance, and some of the Apache in the area had even been coming in to the mission padres to be baptised.

I believe "vencino" can also mean neighboring.

I don't believe the Apache joining up with the New Mexican/Mexicans and the other local Native Americans is something that has been widely discussed in historical books.

If I hadn't seen it, at some time, I would be on your side of the debate. Having seen it, it stuck in my mind for being so out of character for the Apache.

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Cactus Joe Wrote: """"((((it stuck in my mind for being so out of character for the Apache.))))"""" -------- There are times when truth is indeed stranger than fiction, when the teller of true tales can report things that we would dismiss.

 

[gollum]

So Joe,

I guess there is an important distinction to be made here regarding Apache involvement:

Were the Apache involved those that had been living among the Spanish already, or was an entire tribe of the Apache involved? There is a BIG difference between the two.

I can understand individuals from many different tribes living amongst each other in settlements joining the fracas, but I have a lot of trouble seeing a nomadic tribe of vicious free living Apache who had been fighting and murdering the Spanish and opposing Indians for hundreds of years all of a sudden saying lets get together and fight the Americanos.

Mike

Best-Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Geronimo was born of the Bedonkohe Apache tribe in No-doyohn Canon, Arizona, June, 1829, near present day Clifton, Arizona. The fourth in a family of four boys and four girls, he was called Goyathlay (One Who Yawns.) In 1846, when he was """"((((seventeen,))))"""" he was admitted to the Council of the Warriors, which allowed him to marry. Soon, he received permission; married a woman named Alope, and the couple had three children. """"((((In 1847 Geronimo was 18))))""""



In the mid 1850s, the tribe, was at """"((((peace))))"""" with the Mexican towns and neighboring Indian tribes.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The various Apache tribes seldom lived in large groups. As you know, they lived in small bands and moved with the seasons. It follows that there is very little likelyhood that an entire tribe could be brought into such a coalition.

Small bands would have done what they considered to be to their benefit. They often made peace with the Mexicans for short periods, and lived in very close proximity with them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Off Topic Slightly: """"((((Tonto Apache Tribe celebrates victory))))"""" Town officials weren’t invited to attend a ceremony that drew more than 150 people for a breakfast event — including top officials from the Bureau of Indian Affairs from Washington, D.C. most of the 139 members of the Tonto Apache Tribe, gathered in the """"((((cavernous))))"""" meeting room of the Mazatzal Hotel & Casino to celebrate a rare reversal of history — the political equivalent of water flowing uphill.

The event marked the addition of 292 acres of federal trust land to the tribe’s 85-acre reservation — """"((((reversing))))"""" a loss dating back to the 1870s that nearly exterminated an ancient culture.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Peralta Stones The Bowie Knife -------- An early Bowie Blade Style (from 1835-1865).

 

[somehiker]

A Bowie Knife?
Good ID SF/JVK/etc/etc/etc.....Keep workin on that
Somebody else made the same claim recently.I'm still chortlin over that one,considering the source.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I have often thought that the knife was added to the stones after the picture on the car bumper was taken. I still think that may be true, but it seems likely that it was meant to be there from the creation of that map.

It fits the map too precisely for it to be something just added to confuse. The point rests on Parker Pass and the arrow through to hilt goes through Tim's Saddle. Simple straight lines through the locator dots prove that theory.

Maybe that's just too simple. It could be that the Stone Maps are leading to the real San Saba Mine.
Everyone just thought it was in Texas.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
The blade in question is not carved as deeply as many of the other details,a detail in itself.Possibly why it does not show all that well in what is a low resolution photograph to begin with.It does occupy an important area,ie bordering the removable heartstone,on the surface of the upper map stone.As such,it would seem to have a major part in the overall meaning of the Stone Maps.The configuration of this object, including the "D" on the purpose-specific grip make it so, IMO...I don't think that anything was added to the maps in order to confuse.The only reason that we find the details confusing,is that they were created by a person of another cultural background and education than we.They were meant for someone else of that same background and education,and mindset as well.For them it may have been relatively "simple".
Personally,I don't believe that they lead to any mine.

Regards:SH.

 

[gollum]

I just spent about fifteen minutes with the Bumper Pic and some of the ones I took.

I blew the bumper pic up to 1200 dpi @12". I can see a bit of the top of the blade (the three intersecting lines). That's all, but I believe the knife is there.

Best-Mike

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

Everything and anything isn't always what it appears to be. For example a D Guard Style Bowie Knife.

A Civil War era Bowie knife that's long enough to be considered a short sword, the D-guard style Bowies were popular in the Confederacy during the Civil War for their all-purpose capabilities: chopping branches, splitting logs, slicing saplings, digging cannon emplacements, and oh, yeah, hand-to-hand combat.

Looks like a knife belonging to who? Confederacy? The "D"on the knife handle is giving us a clue.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

This was as close as I thought I needed to get:

What's your picture look like? I went from just below the hilt to the area where the tip of the knife should be.

Joe