Springfield
Silver Member
Ellie Baba said:Bueynos Diaz,
A. The following attachment involves a conversation between Padre Kino and Manje concerning an error involving a wrong turn, which resulted in the failure of the Coronado expedition in actually locating the Seven Cities of Cibola. Understand a very important fact; Padre Kino and Manje knew where the Seven Cities were/are located. We will take this initial information and developed a foundation of understanding and I will provide the proof that Kino and Manje knew what they were talking about.
The reason we are starting here is due to the fact the treasures that were hidden in this area actually existed. Father Kino knew the truth, as did Coronado, De Niza, Friar Marcos, Estaban and notably Antonio de Herrera, a noted historian who worked directly with King Phillip in Spain. Antonio had documented all of the accounts from those who were involved in the New World and produced a number of volumes regarding these historical documents including those from Cortez and Bernal Dias (Diaz). You will have to excuse my short and incomplete comments as the whole of this work is very large.
Check out this amazing piece of history and do your homework (if interested) and let me know about your thoughts and questions. Ok Lamar, the Jesuits are involved my friend, sit back and I will provide the evidence to prove this statement is correct.
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Have a great week,
Ellie Baba
B. Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology
COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1539-481
.... Fray Marcos crossed the Rios Mayo and Yaqui, and about the middle of April was at a place called Vacapa or Bacapa. This is specially to be noted; for the name has been confounded with a certain San Luis Beltran de Bacapa, in northwestern Sonora near the Arizona line, and thus Fray Marcos has been sent by various writers promenading in a country he never even approached, to the dire confusion of his whole route. But Bacapa was an Indian village on the headwaters of the Rio Matapa, about lat. 29", and was at or near the modern town of Matape, in central Sonora, where the Jesuit mission of San Jose de Matapa was founded in 1629. It was this miserable malidentification of Bacapa, traceable back at least to Mange, Mar. 12, 1702, which threw Friar Marcos' route out, altogether too far to the northwest, at the hands of many historians or commentators, who fetched him up low down on the Gila, ....
At this date, when Mange was with Kino at San Luis de Bacapa, he indulged in the bit of historical and geographical mythology I wish to signalize as such : " Y parece es por la que paso el ejercito de Francisco Vazquez Coronado el aiio de 1540 cuando fueron a descubrir las 7 ciudades de los llanos de Zivola, pues este nombre mismo le da el cronista Antonio de Herrera en la de cada 4. a descubriendo este viaje, y que dista 40 leguas del mar, y la misma distancia hallamos en ella," etc. Bacapa ! One day's journey from Sonoita ! O Coronate .' Quandoque qualescunque quantcB- cunque fabulce de te narrantur ! It all comes from mistaking this Bacapa for the place on Rio Matape of the same or similar name, which happens to be about the same distance from the gulf.
Father Louis Hoffman’s translation:
"And it seems that the army of Francisco Vazquez passed through (here) in the year 1540 when they went to discover the 7 cities on the plains of Zibola which is the same name that the chronicler Antonio de Herrera gives in each of the 4 ( 4 what?) discovering (discovered) this trip and it distances 40 leagues from the sea, and that is the same distance that we found it to be," etc. Bacapa! One day's journey from Sonoita! Oh Coronado, (here are 3 different possibilities)
1.- "when anyone speaks of you, it is of fabulous things (riches) (?)
2.- ..................speaks fabulous things of you
3.- when anyone speaks of you, fabulous (rich) things are mentioned
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EB, I'm anticipating you shedding some more light on this subject, because I, for one, am unsure what point you are making here.
Are you implying that Marcos' 1539 expedition to 'Cibola', led by Estavanico the shipwrecked slave from the Narvaez expedition, actually crossed into present USA near the Ajo, AZ vicinity, a secret allegedly known by Kino? In A above, the mention of a wrong turn by Coronado in 1540 implies that Marcos intentionally misled Coronado. I totally agree with this premise in general, but IMO the deception occurred at the mouth of the Rio San Francisco, not out in the Sonoran desert.
The text at B seems to imply that earlier researchers mistakenly placed the Coronado expedition's crossing into present USA near the border area near Sonoyta, Mexico, which it seems to me from the quote that Kino and Manje were aware of and were discussing. This error was corrected of course and there is little doubt that Coronado crossed somewhere between the Nogales, AZ vicinity and a point just east of the AZ/NM line. Exhaustive research by geographers leave little doubt. Interestingly, the AZ/NM border area is included as a possible crossing point based on a comprehensive search and retrieval of mid-16th century artifacts that were catalogued by the Center for Desert Archaeology in 2005. The evidence shows that Coronado, or someone else, traveled up the Animas Valley in extreme SW NM during this time period.
In any event, nothwithstanding the Coronado expedition (a bust all the way to Kansas and back), it's the Franciscan Marcos de Niza's 1539 expedition that remains somewhat mysterious. Other than your 'wrong turn' statement, I'm not reading anything from your quotes that is new.