The Peralta Stones

[Springfield]

Bueynos Diaz,
A. The following attachment involves a conversation between Padre Kino and Manje concerning an error involving a wrong turn, which resulted in the failure of the Coronado expedition in actually locating the Seven Cities of Cibola. Understand a very important fact; Padre Kino and Manje knew where the Seven Cities were/are located. We will take this initial information and developed a foundation of understanding and I will provide the proof that Kino and Manje knew what they were talking about.

The reason we are starting here is due to the fact the treasures that were hidden in this area actually existed. Father Kino knew the truth, as did Coronado, De Niza, Friar Marcos, Estaban and notably Antonio de Herrera, a noted historian who worked directly with King Phillip in Spain. Antonio had documented all of the accounts from those who were involved in the New World and produced a number of volumes regarding these historical documents including those from Cortez and Bernal Dias (Diaz). You will have to excuse my short and incomplete comments as the whole of this work is very large.
Check out this amazing piece of history and do your homework (if interested) and let me know about your thoughts and questions. Ok Lamar, the Jesuits are involved my friend, sit back and I will provide the evidence to prove this statement is correct.
...
Have a great week,
Ellie Baba


B. Father Kino and Manje discuss historical and geographical mythology

COMMENTARY ON MARK OF NICE, 1539-481
.... Fray Marcos crossed the Rios Mayo and Yaqui, and about the middle of April was at a place called Vacapa or Bacapa. This is specially to be noted; for the name has been confounded with a certain San Luis Beltran de Bacapa, in northwestern Sonora near the Arizona line, and thus Fray Marcos has been sent by various writers promenading in a country he never even approached, to the dire confusion of his whole route. But Bacapa was an Indian village on the headwaters of the Rio Matapa, about lat. 29", and was at or near the modern town of Matape, in central Sonora, where the Jesuit mission of San Jose de Matapa was founded in 1629. It was this miserable malidentification of Bacapa, traceable back at least to Mange, Mar. 12, 1702, which threw Friar Marcos' route out, altogether too far to the northwest, at the hands of many historians or commentators, who fetched him up low down on the Gila, ....

At this date, when Mange was with Kino at San Luis de Bacapa, he indulged in the bit of historical and geographical mythology I wish to signalize as such : " Y parece es por la que paso el ejercito de Francisco Vazquez Coronado el aiio de 1540 cuando fueron a descubrir las 7 ciudades de los llanos de Zivola, pues este nombre mismo le da el cronista Antonio de Herrera en la de cada 4. a descubriendo este viaje, y que dista 40 leguas del mar, y la misma distancia hallamos en ella," etc. Bacapa ! One day's journey from Sonoita ! O Coronate .' Quandoque qualescunque quantcB- cunque fabulce de te narrantur ! It all comes from mistaking this Bacapa for the place on Rio Matape of the same or similar name, which happens to be about the same distance from the gulf.

Father Louis Hoffman’s translation:
"And it seems that the army of Francisco Vazquez passed through (here) in the year 1540 when they went to discover the 7 cities on the plains of Zibola which is the same name that the chronicler Antonio de Herrera gives in each of the 4 ( 4 what?) discovering (discovered) this trip and it distances 40 leagues from the sea, and that is the same distance that we found it to be," etc. Bacapa! One day's journey from Sonoita! Oh Coronado, (here are 3 different possibilities)
1.- "when anyone speaks of you, it is of fabulous things (riches) (?)
2.- ..................speaks fabulous things of you
3.- when anyone speaks of you, fabulous (rich) things are mentioned
....

EB, I'm anticipating you shedding some more light on this subject, because I, for one, am unsure what point you are making here.

Are you implying that Marcos' 1539 expedition to 'Cibola', led by Estavanico the shipwrecked slave from the Narvaez expedition, actually crossed into present USA near the Ajo, AZ vicinity, a secret allegedly known by Kino? In A above, the mention of a wrong turn by Coronado in 1540 implies that Marcos intentionally misled Coronado. I totally agree with this premise in general, but IMO the deception occurred at the mouth of the Rio San Francisco, not out in the Sonoran desert.

The text at B seems to imply that earlier researchers mistakenly placed the Coronado expedition's crossing into present USA near the border area near Sonoyta, Mexico, which it seems to me from the quote that Kino and Manje were aware of and were discussing. This error was corrected of course and there is little doubt that Coronado crossed somewhere between the Nogales, AZ vicinity and a point just east of the AZ/NM line. Exhaustive research by geographers leave little doubt. Interestingly, the AZ/NM border area is included as a possible crossing point based on a comprehensive search and retrieval of mid-16th century artifacts that were catalogued by the Center for Desert Archaeology in 2005. The evidence shows that Coronado, or someone else, traveled up the Animas Valley in extreme SW NM during this time period.

In any event, nothwithstanding the Coronado expedition (a bust all the way to Kansas and back), it's the Franciscan Marcos de Niza's 1539 expedition that remains somewhat mysterious. Other than your 'wrong turn' statement, I'm not reading anything from your quotes that is new.

 

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[lamar]

Hi Jim
That is a very nice find, If they where fish, I'd have to say, You Got the Big One! Gold and still an unknown, nice. But I'm sure you'll agree, Cowboy, the Ladies Leg gives it away, I believe!
FEMF

Well FEMF,

Do you think it would be too much of a stretch, to hope it was a Mexican Cowboy?

Best,

Jim

Hello Jim
You wouldn't ask, if you hadn't already guessed? It looks like an American cowboy spur to me, Ha, Ha.
Still a great find. Have a great day!
FEMF

Dear FEMF;
I already advised Jim Hatt what style of spur it is, the most probable manufacturer of said spur and it's most probable manufacturing period. And did I get even a *thank you* in return? Nope! And he is trying to pass himself off as some type of Western gentleman? This should say something about the character of the man.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[FEMF]

Hi Jim
That is a very nice find, If they where fish, I'd have to say, You Got the Big One! Gold and still an unknown, nice. But I'm sure you'll agree, Cowboy, the Ladies Leg gives it away, I believe!
FEMF

Well FEMF,

Do you think it would be too much of a stretch, to hope it was a Mexican Cowboy?

Best,

Jim

Hello Jim
You wouldn't ask, if you hadn't already guessed? It looks like an American cowboy spur to me, Ha, Ha.
Still a great find. Have a great day!
FEMF

Dear FEMF;
I already advised Jim Hatt what style of spur it is, the most probable manufacturer of said spur and it's most probable manufacturing period. And did I get even a *thank you* in return? Nope! And he is trying to pass himself off as some type of Western gentleman? This should say something about the character of the man.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hello Lamar
I'm from a Republican family, I live in a Republican City, that is in a Republican State, I pick my Battles very carrfully. I think both of you should give it a rest, and lets get back to the stones.
Take Care!
FEMF

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hey Y'all,

Stop putting stumbling blocks in front of each other and resolve this bickering back and forth (find a website that supports this type of madness). Lamar, as a Christian you of all people should know how to relate to others as commanded by the Holy Scriptures. I left this site before due to this type of behavior and if this keeps up I will go to DUSA!

This site was intended to be used for the subject matter relating to the stone maps, correct? Lets get back to the subject at hand and lets all act like civilized adults. THIS SITE IS CURRENTLY AN EMBARRESMENT! You should be ashamed.

Ellie Baba

 

[BILL96]

Yes, the conversation has certainly degraded.

 

[Jim Hatt]

In the short time that I was allowed to post my opinions on his forum, interest and participation also increased.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Since everyone was watching at the time, and already knows how devastated we were when we lost your wit and charm in our forums. I will not try to hide how sad our loss was. We dried our tears, and just made up our minds to do the best we could without you and survive the tragedy. It probably wouldn’t have been so bad if you hadn’t of taken your large following of personal “Personas” with you, and left us with almost nobody to talk to anymore.

I am glad you found yourself a new home, where you can share your map, and all of your knowledge, and your wisdom with those less fortunate. For everyone’s loss, someone always gains something.

Best of luck to you, and all of your personal personas, where ever you go and what ever you do Joe.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply. Your reply illustrates my point perfectly.

Everyone else, see my last post.

I am back to the Stone Map Topic.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Springfield,

Yes, the historical record is correct. Fray Marcos initially created the route because he had been given the correct directions. He made a big mistake (the same one Mr. Adams made concerning a certain ledge of gold) and ended up in the wrong place. Fray Marcos, acting as Coronado's guide made the same mistake again, for they were taken to the same place as before, the wrong place.

Kino and Manje knew where they (Marcos and Coronado) had gone due to the information left behind as Antonio had recorded. Kino wanted to go to China so bad, but the Jesuit Father in charge had a better mission in mind for Kino. The discussion that was taking place between Manje and Kino down at the mission involved a certain map that Kino had received from the Jesuit Father prior to arriving in California; this time Kino knew the exact location of the treasures, which by the way, is nowhere near where Coronado and Marcos ended up.

This is a true story my friends.

Ellie Baba

 

[Springfield]

Hi Springfield,

Yes, the historical record is correct. Fray Marcos initially created the route because he had been given the correct directions. He made a big mistake (the same one Mr. Adams made concerning a certain ledge of gold) and ended up in the wrong place. Fray Marcos, acting as Coronado's guide made the same mistake again, for they were taken to the same place as before, the wrong place.

Kino and Manje knew where they (Marcos and Coronado) had gone due to the information left behind as Antonio had recorded. Kino wanted to go to China so bad, but the Jesuit Father in charge had a better mission in mind for Kino. The discussion that was taking place between Manje and Kino down at the mission involved a certain map that Kino had received from the Jesuit Father prior to arriving in California; this time Kino knew the exact location of the treasures, which by the way, is nowhere near where Coronado and Marcos ended up.

This is a true story my friends.

Ellie Baba

EB,
This makes one wonder how Marcos could repeat such a grievous error only one year later in 1540, given that he had accurate directions to begin with in 1539. The same mistake twice? Hmmm. Because of his experiences in Peru with Pizzaro, it's been reported that he developed a genuine empathy for the native populations and a diminished loyalty to the Crown. If this was the case, one could speculate that he may have followed his directions to the prize in '39, but didn't want the Spanish to get their hands on the goods and purposefully duped Coronado in '40. You have the sound of someone who has a good idea about the location of the prize, but are unwilling to provide anymore speculation - true? I hope not.

By the way, how did Adams enter the discussion? Are you linking him to the story? Many open-minded researchers hold open the possibility that the LAD, like the LDM, has a completely and radically different explanation than the 'legends' that persist.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Santa Fe,

WHAT?

Your quote: The “8”, infinity, analemma, forever and ever, the beginning and the end and rebirth

Its invalid - as the "8" is NOT infinity - infinity is an figure that looks like a stretched out 8, laying on its side - which means, if the 8 is NOT
infinity, then the rest of your statement is, in fact - untrue.

Beth

 

[Springfield]

Santa Fe,

WHAT?

Your quote: The “8”, infinity, analemma, forever and ever, the beginning and the end and rebirth

Its invalid - as the "8" is NOT infinity - infinity is an figure that looks like a stretched out 8, laying on its side - which means, if the 8 is NOT
infinity, then the rest of your statement is, in fact - untrue.

Beth

Depends on your perspective - try turning it sideways.

 

[cactusjumper]

Few people are willing to juxtapose their solutions to the Stone Maps together with the actual stones. I have done that, and invited those interested in the story to offer their critiques. Many have offered their criticism, few have been specific as to where my map does not match the Stone Maps. I am only talking about the Trail Maps, as I have no interest in the Priest/Horse "Map".

It takes little to no talent to say "I have figured it all out", without offering one smidgen of evidence. At least with my maps, you have something solid to work with. You don't need to rely on just my word.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

The infinity symbol is not and has never been scientifically connected to the number eight. Our view of the symbol is from the side. From above, it would a 0 with opposing high and low sides. Like the circle, it would have no beginning and no end.

Now that is just my unqualified opinion. As such, someone else may have another answer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

"The discussion that was taking place between Manje and Kino down at the mission involved a certain map that Kino had received from the Jesuit Father prior to arriving in California; this time Kino knew the exact location of the treasures, which by the way, is nowhere near where Coronado and Marcos ended up."

Can you tell us if there is a public source for the information about the map and the treasure, as it applies to Kino and Manje?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

Hi Springfield,

Yes, the historical record is correct. Fray Marcos initially created the route because he had been given the correct directions. He made a big mistake (the same one Mr. Adams made concerning a certain ledge of gold) and ended up in the wrong place. Fray Marcos, acting as Coronado's guide made the same mistake again, for they were taken to the same place as before, the wrong place.

Kino and Manje knew where they (Marcos and Coronado) had gone due to the information left behind as Antonio had recorded. Kino wanted to go to China so bad, but the Jesuit Father in charge had a better mission in mind for Kino. The discussion that was taking place between Manje and Kino down at the mission involved a certain map that Kino had received from the Jesuit Father prior to arriving in California; this time Kino knew the exact location of the treasures, which by the way, is nowhere near where Coronado and Marcos ended up.

This is a true story my friends.

Ellie Baba

Hello Ellie Baba
Sounds like you've been doing a lot of home work for a long time! Thanks for posting all this information.
Most everyone holds back something, but it don't look like you do! if you are? it must be a hum ding-er!
Thank you.
FEMF
P.S. Ellie have you seen Marcos name on the East end of South Mountain?

 

[Cubfan64]

I always thought it was interesting how a mobius strip (has only one side/edge) when held the right way looks just like the infinity symbol. It can also be held to look just like the number 8.

Coincidence - I doubt it - relavent - probably not :P

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

The infinity symbol is not and has never been scientifically connected to the number eight. Our view of the symbol is from the side. From above, it would a 0 with opposing high and low sides. Like the circle, it would have no beginning and no end.

Now that is just my unqualified opinion. As such, someone else may have another answer.

Take care,

Joe

Can't argue that. I personally have serious doubts about the integrity of these stones, but if they were created to hold information pertaining to the location of things of great value, they were coded by person(s) of significent intelligence to fool anyone not in on the secrets. The point is that all the engravings, major and subtle, have to be considered from all aspects, singly and in all combinations, under all conditions. This strategy includes the possibility that 'dummy' clues were created in the hills that match some aspects of the stones but only perpetuate a snipe hunt in the wrong direction. Modern man makes a huge error when he assumes he is smarter than those who came before him.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

My own personal belief about the stones, is that they were created "after the fact". They do show the locations of mines, and possible treasure locations in the Superstition Mountains, to the exclusion of all other places, but those locations no longer hold anything of value. Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars is the one story that really convinces me of that.

Because of my uncle's, Tracy Hawkins, Ernie Provence and Dale Howard's participation in that story, I believe it to be true. It is located on the Stone Map Trail and is denoted by an X. Because the next X on the trail shows a sealed mine/cave/claim, it's possible it also was a storage place for gold bars.

Another X is shown between Weaver's Needle and Black Top Mountain. That matches up with two stories that I am familiar with. One is Dale Howard's boulder sealed cave with rich ore at the entrance, and the other is Bob Brady's cave of gold bars.
Those stories are also locate on the Stone Map Trail.

That's why I believe my map is on the money.......so to speak. I am always at a loss to figure out why so many people are unable to see the correlation between my maps and the topography which they match so precisely. I always thought I was totally convinced when we found those two monuments on the ridge. That all took second place when we found the old trail with the heart at the end........exactly where I placed it on my topo' over 35 years ago, without ever being at that final location.

I guess you just had to be there......

Take care,

Joe

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi to All,
Well Beth, looks like the infinity symbol, analemma and the number 8 all have different meanings.
Infinity (symbolically represented by ∞) is a concept in many fields that refers to a quantity without bound or end. People have developed various ideas throughout history about the nature of infinity. The word comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."
The infinity symbol is sometimes called the lemniscate, from the Latin lemniscus, meaning "ribbon". John Wallis is credited with introducing the symbol in 1655 in his De sectionibus conicis. One conjecture about why he chose this symbol is that he derived it from a Roman numeral for 1000 that was in turn derived from the Etruscan numeral for 1000, which looked somewhat like CIƆ and was sometimes used to mean "many." Another conjecture is that he derived it from the Greek letter ω (omega), the last letter in the Greek alphabet. Also, before typesetting machines were invented, ∞ was easily made in printing by typesetting an 8 type on its side.
On Earth, the analemma appears as a figure eight. Again, the resulting curve resembles a figure of eight (8). This sign and its components can indicate where the sun is located in the sky any time of year.
Below is a description of some of the terms that I have become familiar with over the years;
SARA; sculptured, animated rock art
Viewing corridor; area/location pre-determined by the Author of the SARA where one must be standing to view the complete art form and recognize the features of said art form during 100% phase.
Phase; Percentage of art form, 0% phase, there are no recognizable features, up to (100% phase) to completely recognizing the features of the art form 100%.
Phase dependency; Location of the sun or moon in relationship to a SARA at a given time, date and year. We need to use an analemma to determine where the position of the sun is actually located in reference to each SARA.
Eight (8), equals rebirth according to the study of Pyramidology. It can be used to represent any of the above, trust me, I have learned the hard way.
When one is working with the stone maps a common rule must be applied; each symbol may imply three different definitions. Each one must be proven individually to determine if its meaning can be applied to the maps. The sign may have more than three (3) meanings, let us use the hearts found on the stone maps. How many are there all together? Three, six, eight or nine?
The Priest Map tells us to study the heart, singular, not plural. Which heart are we supposed to study? It is so obvious, the correct one, the right one, the only one that can enlighten us to indicate where the treasures are cached. We must eliminate all of the others (or do we) to determine which heart we must study, look for or find. Busca, another word with a number of meanings; search, quest; hunt; v. search for, seek, look for; scout for; forage; call for, ask for, etc. BUSCA EL CORAZON = looking for the heart. You must find the heart, you must study this heart that you have found and you must know its meaning (hint; Padre Kino knew). This will be explained at a later date, for he had a great amount of knowledge relating to the area in question.
Lamar,
The symbol for the heart has been around since the 1190s. Pic attached

Joe,

No public info as of yet.

Ellie B

 

[bigscoop]

I have a question which may seem stupid but I'm only asking because I find this mystery so fascinating but lack enough knowledge on the subject to keep up. So I am curious to know, why does everyone believe that these stones lead to old mines? I mean, couldn't these stones just as easily be the record of a simple religious journey, say into the heart of the region? I'm just asking so I can catch up on the current conversation with a little better understanding of how these stones have been directly tied to Kino, Peralta, or lost mines, etc.? Not doubting that they are, just don't understand how they are tied to these things with so much certainty?