the lost Dutchman mine and the Tayopa mine have been found !

[the blindbowman]

this is not a joke , i am the blindbowman , i have a on going reguest with the tonto nationial forst offices over the treasure trove permits needed to legally clam 3 sites shown on the peralta _ruth map . yes the sites are the jesuit chruch and the tayopa mine and the lost dutchman mine ... no one can request permits on these sites locations untill my reguest have been answerd ...! yes i have found these 3 site in the superstition mt range , and yes i can prove it ....in 1979 i was in flight from orlando fla to huston texas and than to SD calf. after leaveing huston the air plane when into a small thunder storm and when we came out we were to close to weavers needle and as we truned away i saw a bright golden reflection shinning in the window of the plane . after just passing QM training A school for navagationial train at orlando fla . i knew how to look threw the small spaces between my fingers to see when looking into bright light , i saw a funnle shape on the top of one of the mts was makeing the bright reflection . i noted its locateion from weavers needle . and 10 past before i read the book the killer mt's by curt gentry and learn the discription of the dutchman mine and what i had seen was the same thing . after 27 years ,17 years of reseach i have requested treasure trove permits for the 3 locations , few people related these two lost legends but they are in fact one legend with 3 main parts . the facts of history were confuseing to most that went hunting for these sites ...i hope to be able to tell you far more soon ,,,,

 

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[gollum]

Hey Bill. Haven't heard from you in a while.

Tayopa is a little further South and East of the Supers. Sorry. Maybe you should ask Realde Tayopa. He actually has the lease and claims on that land (and it's in Mexico).

Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

if he thinks its out of the supers he is out right wrong ...lol

 

[djui5]

With all due respect, the Tayopa mine is no where near the Supers. You might wanna re-think some of your clues. Maybe some of the sites you are looking for ARE NOT in the Supers, but South near the Tayopa mine.

 

[the blindbowman]

i will let you tell everyone here you were in fact wrong about that when i make my sights public . fair ,,... i am not wrong ....the tayopa is the tunnle under the LDM .and yes i can prove that !

 

[djui5]

We'll see. I disagree with you.

I have a question, does all this evidence you have stem from this single sighting of a "funnel" from an airplane? Have you actually hiked out there and found anything?

 

[the blindbowman]

have you ever hiked in those mts at 94 degree , the ground was about 119 degrees the day i went in i walked 7 1/2 miles .dont ask how close i came to not walking out ! i blistard my feet so bad i have lost about 80% of the skin off my feet . down to one level of skin is not much left ... and yes i was standing 15ft from what was left of the house in the cave and i am going back in December ....i will not stop even if it cost me my life .. i have made copies of my work and protected the mines from being lost again ... they are found and will never be lost again .....

the bad thing is 99 people out of hunderd could walk within 10ft of these sites and not even see them unless they know what to look for , the indains did a good job of covering them over ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=the blindbowman
have you ever hiked in those mts at 94 degree , the ground was about 119 degrees the day i went in i walked 7 1/2 miles .dont ask how close i came to not walking out ! i blistard my feet so bad i have lost about 80% of the skin off my feet . down to one level of skin is not much left
********
That's hot? sheesh, down here it hits 110+ in the open shade, as for the ground, which is all rock?? I have never blistered my feet nor have the Indians at Tayopa that only wear huaraches, open toed sandals.

However I do agree that it is no fun.

Tropicl Tramp

 

[djui5]

the bad thing is 99 people out of hunderd could walk within 10ft of these sites and not even see them unless they know what to look for , the indains did a good job of covering them over ...

Well, personally the more you describe things, the more I dis-believe you. We shall see though. BTW, if you don't want the mines being lost anymore, then I'm sure you don't mind filling me in on what you've found?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

DJUI sneaky hehhhheh

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

if they aprove my permits that means they have found something at the sites that is man made and than i will do far better than that . i will post all the data that got me the permits here on the site ... i agree the site should not be lost even if can get a legal clam to them this has been 27 from the sighting and i would like to see them found from this data ... i was able to work from the sites out ward and not the other way around working from the out side inward .. both ways are a lot of fun lol ...

but yes when the time is right i will post the data for all to see...if i posted it now they may throw me in jail for starting one of the bigist gold rushes in history ...lol....

my data speaks for it self ...you will see what i mean when it is time .. its the red tape that really sucks ...

its much easyer to throw a few gold bars in the pack and walk away .. but that will not legally clam the LDM or the tayopa mine ....

and yes agree with you both often people say they have found it and are no where near the real site .. but i can find my location with in a 250ft in 3600 nm of ocean with just the sun .....and its the same sun you see on land ...lol is there another sun i dont know about or has it been lost too ...lol i had boots on and that was not good ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=the blindbowman i can find my location with in a 250ft in 3600 nm of ocean with just the sun .....and its the same sun you see on land ...lol is there another sun i dont know about or has it been lost too ...lol i had boots on and that was not good ...
*************

NO watch or time information? Fantastic, you "are" good.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Here's where you have a problem. I don't dispute that you may have found a mine or even three mines. That does not make them the dutchman and the tayopa. The dutchman is said to be in the superstitions even though many fruitless searches of the superstitions have been made. The peralta map as i recall showed many mines in the superstition area. It is possible that you have found the dutchman and two others of the peralta mines. It is very unlikely that you have found any of the 18 tayopa mines in the united states. Finding a spanish mine is not really that profitable. Many folks have found them and gone broke. What made a fortune 400 years ago with unpaid slave labor most likely will not show a profit in modern times. Big difference between bonanza and borasco. good luck and exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Friends,

Good luck to you Blindbowman with getting your permits approved, perhaps you will have better luck with the Forest Service than many others have had - since most of the Superstitions are within the Superstition Mountains Wilderness where no mineral entry (mining claims) are allowed to be approved, unless they predate the designation of Wilderness. Not sure on the treasure trove permit.

Most accounts place Tayopa in Mexico well south of the Superstitions, as they said you could hear the church bells of Tayopa in Nacori on a clear day:

However we now know that there were three Tayopas over the years, so it is conceivable that there could be yet another site which was known by that title.

There are stone "houses" in the Superstitions, though exactly who (whom?) constructed them is open to conjecture; most archaeologists hold the opinion that the stone structures in caves and outside were built well before the arrival of the Spanish, around 1300 AD. They are all relatively small too, but of course it would be no surprise if Mexicans or Americans for that matter made use of them, especially with very hostile Indios haunting the area.

Siegfried Schlagrule wrote:
Here's where you have a problem. I don't dispute that you may have found a mine or even three mines.

I agree, and it is problematic - for after Jacob Waltz died, literally hundreds of treasure hunters and prospectors have been poking around in the Superstitions, digging shafts, driving tunnels and blasting away, where they HOPED the lost Dutchman mine would be, often times in places where there was not only no gold, but no HOPE of any gold being found. The unfortunate aspect of this is, that it is difficult to establish the precise age of these old workings (many of which date to the late 1890s so look quite old now) and when a modern treasure hunter stumbles onto one of these old workings (which would not really be fair to call them "mines" as they never produced anything but heartbreak and tears) unless they are 'prospector enough' to look for gold ore and not pyrites, they are likely to conclude that they have found NOT some old and worthless workings of a Dutchman-hunter but the actual lost Dutchman mine! (Or the legendary Peralta mines, or Jesuit mines etc.) So just finding some old mines (there are a bunch of these old workings in Needle Canyon and other places in the Superstitions) which may not really BE mines is not the end of your troubles! The fact that an old shaft or tunnel lays un-concealed in any way is a good indicator that it is NOT the lost mine of Jacob Waltz, or any other "famous" lost mine.

Blindbowman wrote:
the bad thing is 99 people out of hunderd could walk within 10ft of these sites and not even see them unless they know what to look for , the indains did a good job of covering them over ...
Whether the mine (or mines) were hidden by Waltz or by Indios, the fact that the mine was carefully concealed is the main reason why we do not know the precise location today. People may have even walked OVER the mine of Waltz, without realizing it! Tayopa was a different story, even the village where the miners (and their families) lived was burned by Apaches (if memory serves, may be wrong - perhaps it was Seris?) and over time the brush and trees grew and concealed the location very well. However though there have been many who have searched for Tayopa (and some continue to this day even though it is no longer "lost") there were never the sheer number of searchers as have been involved in searching for the Dutchman's mine over such a (relatively) restricted area. This is why we are taken aback when someone states that they have found the Dutchman or Tayopa for that matter, when we know that special efforts were made to conceal the mines; unless the treasure hunter is willing to do some serious digging and did it, it is unlikely they have found one of the famous lost mines but rather some old workings that produced nothing. You must be aware of the many folks who have made some very extravagant claims about having found the Dutchman, (Pegleg's gold, the Breyfogle, and many others) but fail to provide the proof, so we are left wondering about their veracity. They could be telling the truth as they believe it to be, but are actually mistaken about what they have found.

i will not stop even if it cost me my life

I hope it will not come to that, NO treasure is worth dying for - heck how could you spend the profits if you are dead! However to die while doing something one enjoys is not the worst way to go either, like our friend James Archer (who taught us how to prospect and mine diamonds at the Crater of Diamonds park in Arkansas) who passed away while digging diamonds, which was his favorite thing to do.

Good luck and good hunting to you. If your find turns out to be what you say it is, I hope you will post some photos etc and not rub it in TOO much!
Oroblanco

 

[djui5]

.............

 

[Oroblanco]

Right on the money Randy as usual! With today's tech using cyanide or urea leach systems they are mining ores that would be not only worthless to the Spaniards but not even identifiable as gold ore! (The huge ore bodies in Nevada for instance) It is possible to re-work the tailings of old Spanish mines today and turn a profit, heck they are re-working the old tailings of the famous Klondike in Yukon and making nice profits. How many people are aware that the US has been producing more gold in recent years than ever was produced during the famous California gold rush days?
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Randy's right (no pun intended),

With the old mining methods, they could only get at the easiest and best ore. Anything difficult was beyond their capabilities this far from civilization. Closer to home, they could chew up an entire mountain. Way out here, they could only follow a vein. That's why most SPANISH MINES are little more than holes in the rocks that go down a few hundred feet (although there are a few exceptions). It was all manual labor with picks and pry bars.

Best,

Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

more red tape .. . the tonto nationial forst office has ask me to take detailed pictures of the 3 locations for my on going request for treasure trove permits . i feel it may be a bad idea to go into the superstitions with out a good team of skilled treasure hunters to help locate these sites and take pictures of these locations , i will know more in the next few days about what is going on and when but first i want to ask if any one would be willing to join a 2 or 3 day hunting team, i cant say how many people will be in the team ( no more than 10 or 12 ) or what we will find , but i can tell you we will not be hunting with out dirrections and set places to look . i will be in fact laying all my reseach on the table and there is a real good chance that we will in fact locate at lest two of these sites the first day ...the 3 sites is at a higher elevation and will take time to get to it ... but the Dick holmes acount has gaven the shortist known trail to the 3 rd site... . and if this 2 or 3 day hunt takes place we can carrie out anything that can fit in your hands . now this dose not go for treasure trove objects ,i dont want to spend time in jail for any object . but we can take as many photos as we can from all dirrection . and if we do locate these sites and there is prof and we get the pictures i need . if the permits are granted , i will keep a list of all that helped and thank you the right way ...but remeber the 3 rd site i beleave is the real lost dutchman mine ...

i will be the navagator and captain , and dirrect the hunt . i dont like boss people . but this is not a game ...and i dont want anyone hert ... if we pool our resorces we can get r done !

lets go find the these 3 sites , and get the photos needed for the permits ...

i cant guarantee that we will find anything of value but as i stated we will not be looking over miles of unknown directions . in fact we would be looking in very set locations , one location covers about 200-300 ft , one is a compass location , this we will have to messure a set path from one point to another and it must be dirrected by compass and will be in a bruchy area but as i stated i have a set compass reading to go to locate this site and it is a tunnle and yes i beleave it is the Tayopa . if this team locates this tunnle and it is the Tayopa we will be able to prove it very easyly , there is a statue of a priest or custody just in side the tunnle ....and if it is located we will inspect the tunnle for insight as to how large it is or how deep . but we can not disturb any histical objects . we can not move anything , just take pictures . thats the rules and the law... on the other hand if we find gold ore or placer gold how big are your hands ...but as for the treasure trove objects it is hands off out right , none of us wants to spend a long time in jail agreed before hand that these items are not for us to move .. if we do find the treasure trove we will come out and call the district rangers Art Wirtz but . it has to be done legally...

10 or 12 people at the most ....

it will take some real planing to get everything togather ...

i can only ask at this point in time if anyone is interested ?

 

[the blindbowman]

I just have a question or two about your "treasure trove" permit, that you are waiting for.

First, if you are waiting for a permit, you must believe it (the treasure) is in the Wilderness Area, or else you would not need a treasure trove permit.

Second, how can you get a permit, when the requirements of obtaining a treasure trove permit, specifically states that you must provide evidence of the treasure?

You don't think they are going to go out and "find" your shiny spot and say ok, do you? You must SHOW them, and then a permit is only issued for a certain amount of days, and the site is subject to inspection.

This is directly from the "Powers that be of the Tonto National Forest"

TRESURE TROVE HUNTING: A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked-
metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent
vintage coins, located minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. A Treasure Trove
Permit must authorize searching for such treasures. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are
evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a
character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and
funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days
and the site is subject to inspection.

And last, but not least, you don't apply for a treasure trove permit with the Forest Service.

thank you i have a copy of the rules right here beside me .

and yes the two people in control of the treasure trove permits are Vincent M Picard & Scott Wood . and yes they are from the FS.FED.US and their letter head is in fact Tonto National Forest supervisers office ... and the District Ranger Art Wirtz over sees the field inspections of the loctions in question for permits ...

i knew all those rules going in ... this is a lot of work and not a joke . it takes time and money . often just proveing there is something even at the locations is hard work .. but i am set in my dirrection . and i beleave i can relocate these 3 sites or i would not have even went to Az the first time ...

but if a person dose in fact get the evidence needed for the permit" they than can inspect the locations ,,

Scott Woods statement to me in writeing says " at this point i need those photos" that means i am going back to the locations to get photos...

we out right dis agree on many things yet some things we do agree on . one there has been many people looking all over the superstitions as you and he pointed out . but there has been no clams at the 3 locations in question .

and yes the locations are in the Wilderness Area out right ..

 

[the blindbowman]

and yes i do agree with Realde tayopa if the name of the mine he found is spelled Teopari than we may in fact be looking at two diffrent mines , the one i am looking at is spelled tayopa ....the same spelling as the chruch bells and tayopa the letter head ...