The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

somehiker · Nov 21, 2013

roadrunner said:
Ore (pun intended) this style with narrow wheels and a narrow width.

View attachment 903025

My guess would be that a farm/produce wagon like that would have a track closer to 60".
Like the conestoga wagons used by settlers back in the day. But they pulled those through some awful rough country at times.
My brother in law has a 19th century vintage wagon frame with wheels of the same type on his farm.

roadrunner · Nov 21, 2013

Now that would be cool to have a wagon in a yard.
There are a few in AJ in yards. I think that wagon I posted had some rocks in it. I got to take a pic of Weavers looking down the valley from Pinal.

cactusjumper · Nov 21, 2013

Marius,

Just to help establish the truth of my statements, here is a letter from Erie Schaefer to my uncle:

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

coazon de oro · Nov 22, 2013

somehiker said:
Gotta admit, it's got me stumped.
But then again, I can't figure out that " Mucho Dinero " map either.

Howdy Wayne,

El Donkeyo points straight to the treasure! :laughing7:

Unless it is just an ad for the Donkeyo show, and Holy Stone ritual?

Homar

somehiker · Nov 22, 2013

Marius:

You can read more about Fish and the Map at these links:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=404

The first post, by Greg Davis, gives us the history of the Peralta/Fish map.
Both the original and the subsequent copies made by others.
The original, which I posted earlier, is in my opinion the one to use.

Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Arizona Superstition Mountain Wilderness - Gold Mining ? View topic - THE FISH MAP

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/38208-frank-fish-map.html

Gold Country's Unsolved Murder

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...bridge/Legend of Adventure (Pete Peralta).pdf

Regards:SH.

Cubfan64 · Nov 22, 2013

coazon de oro said:
Howdy Wayne,

El Donkeyo points straight to the treasure! Unless it is just an ad for the Donkeyo show, and Holy Stone ritual?

Homar

Looks like the hunt for the "Lost Schlong Mine" is on!!

chlsbrns · Nov 22, 2013

markmar · Nov 22, 2013

cactusjumper said:
Marius,

Just to help establish the truth of my statements, here is a letter from Erie Schaefer to my uncle:

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

I belive you . Our controversy was for the origin/roots of this map . I don't wanted to embitter you , just to call the things with their names . Basically , I am more interested in what represent the map and not so whose is .
You must to keep in your mind how here we are not doing a competition , but we try together to decrypt some enigmas . Keep the collective spirit .

cactusjumper · Nov 22, 2013

Marius,

You wrote:

"Joe

I belive you . Our controversy was for the origin/roots of this map . I don't wanted to embitter you , just to call the things with their names . Basically , I am more interested in what represent the map and not so whose is .
You must to keep in your mind how here we are not doing a competition , but we try together to decrypt some enigmas . Keep the collective spirit ."
______________________

Since 2004 I have done nothing but try to help the "collective", as you put it. Not everyone appreciates that help, and I'm ok with that. I have sent our a number of (many) manuscripts, sometimes to people I have never met, at no charge and often loan out books from my library.

I told you the "origin/roots" of the Fish Map. Others have also stepped in with their own sources for information. I have been researching the stories and legends of the Supe's for around 55-years now. I don't really feel the need to compete with anyone. On the other hand, I learn something new every day.

Good luck with your own research,

Joe Ribaudo

markmar · Nov 23, 2013

Joe

Shame on them if not appreciated your help . For this your help must to be for anyone who read your posts , and I believe how somebody will appreciate your help . In my country , a proverb says : " Do the good thing and leave it on the sea . One day somebody will find it and will appreciate it " .

Gregory E. Davis · Nov 23, 2013

Good morning Gentlemen: I have been following this thread pertaining to Dr. Abram D. Thorne for some while and with much interest as one who has spent many years researching his life and the Gold Story. I would like to recommend some of the following publications for study. 1. John Spring's Arizona, edited by A. M. Gustafson, University of Arizona Press, Tucson, 1966, which puts in print some of the adventures of John Spring. Pages 278-284, relates an account of an interview by John Spring with Dr. Thorne pertaining to his experience with the Indian and the finding of some gold. John Spring was a prominent school teacher who at this time was on a summer break and traveling through the West exploring its history. He had no reason to embellish this account of the story given to him by Dr. Throne. 2. For those interested in Banta I would suggest the following: Albert Franklin Banta: Arizona Pioneer, Edited by Frank D. Reeve, University of New Mexico. Historical Society of New Mexico, Publications in History, Vol. XVI, September 1953. Here Mr. Reeve presents to the reader, "Banta's Memoirs", (Housed at the Sharlot Hall Museum, Prescott, Arizona). Banta is credited with writing a number of early stories about the Dr. Thorne Gold. Now remember, Banta was a newspaper man and owned several newspapers in his life. What is the prime purpose of a newspaper man, to SELL PAPERS. 3. I am adding this newspaper article to the list as just, "food for though." Arizona Daily Gazette, January 24, 1893, Page 8, Col. 1, titled; "Land of Golden Bullets", (Quoted from the Chicago Tribune.). 4. For those interested in some of the history of the Thorne Family Members and possible leads to living descendants, I recommend the following item: Estate and Probate of Stephen Thorne. Superior Court of the County of Santa Clara, State of California No. 1663. These papers, ("Probate Papers and Book of Wills for Steven Thorne"), are located at the San Jose Historical Museum in their "Research Center of History San Jose, California." 5. A genealogical list with information on the Thorne Family Generations can be found in the Superstition Mountain Journal, Vol.26, 2008, "The Family Genealogy of Dr. Abram D. Thorne", p. 22-33. I am not trying to put forth any personal opinions or theories here, just some things for the reader to consider. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis.

somehiker · Nov 23, 2013

Hi Greg:

Thanks for fleshing out the story some.
I've offered the "Banta" reference both within this thread and in prior discussions in order to show that the "Doc Thorn" story dates to a time before the "LDM".
That it also mentions a detachment from Ft. Wingate, rather than Ft. McDowell I think is also pertinent, as does the party's employ of "coyotero indians" as guides. This at least gives us further evidence that the Thorn "mine" was thought to be somewhere in the area which includes the Sups.
Personally, I don't see strong links between the "Doc Thorn" and the LDM, other than the fact that both stories involve rich gold ore.
While I do share your suspicions regarding newspaper stories, and sometimes the true bent of those who write them, it might also be said that ALL authors and their publishers are motivated in part by the desire to at least make a living at it. But many, like Banta, were much more than story tellers during their lifetimes.

More on Banta: The White Mountains of Apache County - Catherine H. Ellis, D. L. Turner - Google Books

Springfield · Nov 23, 2013

somehiker said:
Hi Greg:

Thanks for fleshing out the story some.
I've offered the "Banta" reference both within this thread and in prior discussions in order to show that the "Doc Thorn" story dates to a time before the "LDM".
That it also mentions a detachment from Ft. Wingate, rather than Ft. McDowell I think is also pertinent, as does the party's employ of "coyotero indians" as guides. This at least gives us further evidence that the Thorn "mine" was thought to be somewhere in the area which includes the Sups.
Personally, I don't see strong links between the "Doc Thorn" and the LDM, other than the fact that both stories involve rich gold ore.
While I do share your suspicions regarding newspaper stories, and sometimes the true bent of those who write them, it might also be said that ALL authors and their publishers are motivated in part by the desire to at least make a living at it. But many, like Banta, were much more than story tellers during their lifetimes.

More on Banta: The White Mountains of Apache County - Catherine H. Ellis, D. L. Turner - Google Books

It would be interesting to read Banta's St. John's Observer newspaper article about the party's adventure - maybe the Prescott collection has it. His New Mexico Historical Review memoir (January 1952, p. 215), below, doesn't indicate that he was convinced of the Thorne account, although he did participate in the search.

The Chicago Tribune story seems to have somehow misidentified Thorne as Col. George M. Brayton, a famous Arizona 'Indian fighter' of the period. Brayton was in Arizona after 1874 and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery in 1911. As I've mentioned many times, newspaper articles were, and certainly continue to be, fraught with factual errors. [Footnote from Soldier, Surgeon, Scholar: The Memoirs of William Henry Corbusier, 1844-1930]

It would be interesting if any of the Thorne family records reference the 'Dr. Thorne Mine'.

pippinwhitepaws · Nov 23, 2013

mis information in the age of yellow journalism

?tell me it aint so.....

somehiker · Nov 23, 2013

Donald:

Yellow Journalism is probably worse than it has ever been.
Politics and scandal, so-called "scientific consensus" and "hope and change" provides all the blazing headlines required for any "news" outlet hoping to "scoop" the competition and sway the public mind. Unfortunately, and I'm sad to say, it still works.
But I don't think that is what we are questioning here. Banta's accounts seem to fall into a much different category, that being simply stories heard or events experienced by men like Banta, or even Tom Kollenborn. Do Tom's Chronicles, published as they are in newsprint, constitute a type of yellow journalism ?
I think not.

Regards:Wayne

chlsbrns · Nov 23, 2013

Prescott Evening Courier - Google News Archive Search

somehiker · Nov 23, 2013

chlsbrns said:
Prescott Evening Courier - Google News Archive Search

chlsbrns:

It does seem some of the confusion stems from those who added the word "mine" to the story.
Probably because some assumed that if Thorne had been shown a pile of gold ore, from which he was allowed to take as much as he could carry, then there must have been a "mine" somewhere nearby. While possible I guess, it's more likely to me that the pile of gold was simply dumped there by the Apache themselves. It may have been captured, along with the (possibly packed) horses or mules that were the target of many a raid.

Regards:SH.

Gregory E. Davis · Nov 23, 2013

Good afternoon gentlemen: I would like to put forth a challenge to those followers of this thread that like to dig into and research the historic records. Two items I have failed to locate in the past or have never had the time or opportunity to locate are as follows: 1. Dr. Abram Thorne was a very prominent person in New Mexico in the later half of the eighteen hundreds. There should be some record written of his various expeditions to locate, (what he saw when a captive of the Indians), at the time of his various searches. It is hard for me to believe that such a group of expeditions would not have prompted some newspaper man to write about it AT THE TIME. 2. I have not been able to locate an obituary of Dr. Thorne in the newspapers. Also I have not had the opportunity to look for a record of his death in either the Socorro or Lemitar Churches. The probate papers to his estate were stolen from the Socorro County Seat many many years ago so I have no date of his death. Those papers are listed in the index but the packet is no where to be found. My best guess is that he died sometime in the later part of 1896 and he is indeed buried in the Lemitar Cemetery. I have a picture of his wooden cross at the head of his grave. It was still there in 1981 when I visited Lemitar. I sure hope that this request will generate positive fruitage . Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

chlsbrns · Nov 23, 2013

1914 map. Jacob Waltz moved to the Salt River Valley in 1868 and filed a homestead claim on 160 acres of land on the north bank of the Salt River. It is from here Waltz began his exploratory trips into the mountains surrounding the Salt River Valley. If you click the pic below and then click the pic again it will more than fill your screen. You will see a black dot on the North side of the Salt River that could be the homestead.

txtea · Nov 23, 2013

Which black dot? There are a bunch of them above the Salt River.

The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

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