The Land of Ophir and the Ancients Ones....

HOLA amigos,

SWR wrote
Roy...the source you supplied says this, directly underneath what you just quoted:

Although not monuments of Knight Templars, yet these interesting cross-legged effigies have strong claims to our attention upon other grounds. They appear to have been placed in the Temple Church, to the memory of a class of men termed "Associates of the Temple," who, though not actually admitted to the holy vows and habit of the order, were yet received into a species of spiritual connexion with the Templars, curiously illustrative of the superstition and credulity of the times.

Very confusing, if this reference is in regards to Knight Templars, specifically.
Click to expand...

I think it is the author's attempt to clarify which effigy tombs were actually of Templars, that is confusing - he is pointing out that the tombs depicting warriors wearing mail armor with crossed legs are NOT actually Templars, for the Templars had a different set of symbology as describe - the passage cited earlier

The Templars were always buried in the habit of their order, and are represented in it on their tombs. This habit was a long white mantle, as before mentioned, with a red cross over the left breast; it had a short cape and a hood behind, and fell down to the feet unconfined by any girdle. In a long mantle of this description, with the cross of the order carved upon it, is represented the Knight Templar Brother Jean de Dreux, in the church of St. Yvod de Braine in France, with this inscription, in <snip>

I hope this helps.

Lamar wrote
<snip>As an aside, wasn't Mr. Childress the same person who previously wrote that the word *gauze* is so named because it was first woven in Gaza?
Click to expand...
Wow taking the long way round there amigo, and to answer your last question - I do not know. It could be, or it could be another Childress. I am not convinced that NO Templars ever had an effigy tomb from your arguments, or perhaps someone ought to launch on a crusade to get the numerous online photos of "Templar" tombs (which are clearly effigy tombs) changed to say these are not Templars? Good luck on that mission. :thumbsup:
your friend,
Oroblanco
:coffee2:
 

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Dear Oroblanco;
Yes, my friend, I do agree with the authors that coiffed and mailed effigies of knights are not in fact Templars, however, there are details in the following paragraph:

The Templars were always buried in the habit of their order, and are represented in it on their tombs. This habit was a long white mantle, as before mentioned, with a red cross over the left breast; it had a short cape and a hood behind, and fell down to the feet unconfined by any girdle. In a long mantle of this description, with the cross of the order carved upon it, is represented the Knight Templar Brother Jean de Dreux, in the church of St. Yvod de Braine in France, with this inscription, in <snip>

which I do not agree with. For example "unconfined by any girdle" is wholly incorrect as all monastics wore some type of girdle, including the Templars. The practice of wearing cinctures was particularly prevelant during the Middle Ages when church members wore cinctures as an outward sign of devotion to a particular saint, the most popular of the day being St. Michael, especially in France and the surrounding regions.

The religious practice of wearing cinctures is an ancient one and it preceeds Christianity by at least 2,000 years. In fact, Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles to gird their loins and it from these Bibical practices that the use of cinctures arose. The girdle, or cincture, also served a very practical purpose as well as a spiritual one.

For the Templars and other religious military Orders of the day, black or brown leather belts, typically 60 to 70 inches in length, around 1.5 inches in width and incorporporating a single iron D ring, was fastened securely about the waist. The cincture device was always worn as an accessory to the outermost garment and it served to hold the scapular in place. A scapular for professed monastics was generally almost floor length and always made from wool, whereas the scapulars of lay members was trypically shortened to fall between the loins and knees.

As pockets had yet to be invented, the girdle served as a device to bear the burden of a large assortment of useful everyday items and in the case of the military Orders it often included a ring dagger, which was suspended from the girdle by a hook from the girdle. The dagger itself had a ring in the pommel and was hung from the girdle in this manner. Also, the sword was suspended from the waist by the same girdle, always on the left side and far to the rear of the buttocks.

Simple leather pouches also found their way onto girdles and were utilized to carry a host of sundry items, including flint and steel, medicinal herbs of the day, religious icons and personal devices.

For a Templar, the girdle was always cinched in the following manner. First, the gridle encircled the waist, with the D ring being on the left. Next, the free end of the girdle was passed through the D ring from the inside-out. Next, the girdle was cinched tight and then the free end was passed up through the back of the girdle immediately in front of the D ring and lastly the free end was passed down through the loop formed by the girdle as as it exited the D ring.

By the location of the girdle's knot on the waist, we are also able to determine the status of the person in question. Lay members always wore the knot to the right, on the opposite side of the sword, deacons to the left and clerics in the middle.

Girdles also played a crucial supporting role whenever the necessity arose for one to don chainmail shirts. After the mail hauberk(mid-sleeved shirt) was donned, the knight would grasp the mail on the sides of his waist and pull it up about 4 to 6 inches and hold it in place whilst his squire went through the ritual of girding the knight's loins with the leather belt. Afterwards, the knight would release the suspended mail and it would hang from the belt, resulting in the bulk of the mail's weight being transferred to the knight's hips instead of being borne by the shoulders. This also permitted freedom of movement in the upper as chainmail of the era was very heavy and as such, because if left ungirded, the bulk weight of the mail would hang straight down from the knight's body in front and behind, thus rendering torso movements very difficult.

And so, to conclude, the Templars were girded in practice and the placement of the girdle was served both spiritually and practicially. Also, a white cord, most typically comprised of cotton and later on silk, with tassled ends, could be substituted by the Templars for the leather belt in areas not subjected to immediate threat of military action. Once more, close attention to detail serves to preclude erronous conclusions, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Oroblanco;
On another part of the same subject, the symbology attached to the legs being crossed on effigies is very often associated with the person as having been a participant in the Crusades, however there exists much factual evidence to the contrary. We now know there were many effigies depicting crossed legs in which the deceased played no part in any of the Crusades, or even took the Crusader's pledge while at the same time there exists many participants of the Crusades whose effigies are depicted as being straight legged in posture. This leads one to conclude that the custom of carving the depiction with crossed legs was merely a device of the stone carvers of the period and some carvers seemed to be better suited for the rendition than others. Nowhere does there exist any physical or written evidence that an effigy depicting a person with crossed legs was a member or a supporter of the Crusades.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear smithbrown;
In order to more fully understand who the Templars were and what their dress habits were like, we must first gain a thorough and complete understanding of how they were formed and what influenced their Rule.

First, the Templar Rule was outlined by none other than St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who was a member of the Cistercian Order. From St. Bernard, the Templars adopted the Cisterican white habit in it's entirety, without modification or alteration, until the addition of the red cross which was granted by Pope Innocent II in the Papal Bull Omne Datum Optimum. Prior to this Bull, the Templars were indistinguishable from their Cisterican counterparts and while many seem to view the red cross emblazoned on the Templar habit as a sign of distinction and honor, most likely it was added to the Templar habit in order to distinguish the Templars from the non-combative Cistericans. No doubt, the presence of armed, fanatical men, on horseback and dressed in Cisterican habits caused no small amount of concern for the Cisterican Abbots and as such, they probably petitioned the Vatican for relief.

The Templars also adopted the Cisterican Rule in it's entirety, along with it's oaths, with the addition of a fourth special oath, that is to state, that a Templar was not permitted to flee from his enemies. Also, the Templars adopted a cloak as part of their ordinary habit, due to the fact that they often traveled and as such, the cloak served as the Medieval version of both sleeping bag and coat.

Here is the Cisterican Primitive Rule, which outlines sleeping habits:
A candle shall be kept burning in the room until morning.


Let them sleep clothed and girded with belts or cords--
but not with their knives at their sides,
lest they cut themselves in their sleep--
and thus be always ready to rise without delay
when the signal is given
and hasten to be before one another at the Work of God,
yet with all gravity and decorum.



This follows the physical evidence which has thus far been uncovered. Also, there exists many recorded statements in which various Templars were asked about the presence of pagan or satanic idols or devices which were reputed to have been suspended from their girdles, during their trials for heresy. To the man, they all denied having pagan idols either suspended from their girdles or having said idols secreted within their girdles.

The very act of being girded was a ceremony presided over by extreme spirituality and it represented a Templar's oath to remain chaste for the remainder of his life. Once so girded, the girdle should never be removed, and even in death the Templar was interred with his girdle or cinctures. The act of being girded remains so even to this day in the many Roman Catholic Monastic Orders.

The reason why the girdle or cincture is so seldom viewed in medieval paintings is because the cloak precluded it from being seen, however we may rest assured that the girdle of chastity was always worn. In short, the Templar Order was a not radically new Roman Catholic Order, rather it was modelled after the existing pacifistic Cisterican Order and it then incorporated additional vows and rules to accomodate the warrior class of Europe. In light of this, we can study the Cistericans at length and determine with great accuracy the lifestyle of the typical Templar warrior of the period.

As an aside, the links you've provided were not rendered during the existence of the Templar Order, rather they were painted some 100 to 200 years after the dissolution of the Order. The artists were also given a great deal of artistic license, as can be evidenced by beards, moustaches, pointed shoes, game playing, etc.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

No, the two Templar representations are within the right framework; the Hospitillars illustrations came from the end of the middle ages.
On the subject of effigies, of course the sculptors also would use some license. And if they wore the girdle under the armour, then this would not show up at all. I merely pointed out that in medieval iconography, the Military Orders are depicted in loose gowns.
Smithbrown
 

Dear Smithbrown;
Not wishing to seem argumentive, I must however state there seem to be some inconsistencies with the reference links which you've provided.
First:
http://www.paradoxplace.com/Photo P...urgos/Villasirga/Villasirga.htm#TEMPLAR_TOMBS

I have made several pilgramages to the Cathedral of St. James the Greater(Catedral de Santiago de Compostela) several times in my younger days and there are no Templars buried within it's grounds, my friend. Also, the Prince Felipe ,who is interred at St. James Cathedral, held the office of Archbishop of Seville, therefore he could not have been a Templar. The *so-called* Templar shields on Donya Leonor's tomb are in fact shields of the Christian Kingdom of Spain. The Templars depicted on her tomb are in referrence to the patronage which her family had given to the Order in Spain and Portugal. Next, I would like to refute the rendering of the two Templars depicted in the following link:

http://blog.chess.com/view/templar-knights-played-chess

Please carefully note the chess board in the painting, my friend.This particular chess board has 8 files and 8 ranks for a total of 64 squares, however this could not have been possible in medieval times, as chess during the Medieval period was played on a board utilizing 8 ranks and 12 files. This archaic version of chess is known as Courier chess and it disappeared sometime after 1475, having been replaced with the modern chess which we are familiar with today. Also, Courier chess had more pieces than modern chess, with some pieces being styled differently from the modern pieces and some of these no longer used pieces remain unidentified even today as to purpose, rank and movements.

The pieces depicted on the chessboard are all readily identifiable as modern, therefore, in light of these facts, the painting could not have possibly been rendered before 1475, some 150 years after the dissolution of the Templar Order, as modern chess was not played until at least after 1450 AD. Also, considering the artistic style used, I would tenatively place the painting as having been completed around 1550.

Next:
http://cilialacorte.com/caoursin.html

The illustrated manuscript in the above link which you've originally provided was rendered and published by Guillaume Caoursin in 1527, my friend. This particular manuscript tells the illustrated story of the Hospitallars presence on the island of Rhodes and while it is very beautifully done, it was also completed 200 years after the dissolution of the Templar Orders. One of the woodcuts from the original manuscript clearly depicts the Rhodes earthquake of 1481.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Lamar
I am afraid this correspondence must be getting tediously repetitive.
First I was not talking about the general effigy question, but the specific statement on belted cloaks. I merely repeat that medieval iconography shows the Military Orders wearing loose, not belted robes. This was why I posted the link to the Spanish effigies, not because I believed they were effigies of Knights Templars but because of the contemporary weepers wearing templar robes, dating when the Order was in existence.
Thank you for the lecture on the history of chess. However the manuscript dates from 1283, from the time the Order was in existence:
http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitxer:KnightsTemplarPlayingChess1283.jpg
I did state that the Hospitallers’ manuscript dated from the end of the middle ages, I included it because of the many instances of the Hospitallers wearing the long loose robe. The coloured illustrations come from the manuscript version commissioned by the Grand Master shortly after the first siege of Rhodes, in 1480-1; only the black and white woodcuts at the end of the link come from the much later printed version.
Frankly this exchange is growing tedious unless someone actually locates any photographs of the so-called Mexican Templar effigy.
Smithbrown
 

Dear Smithbrown;
I feel there has been a misunderstanding as to the articles of clothing in question, my friend. The gridle was worn around the outermost garment of the habit, that garment being the robe. The cloak was never considered to be part of the ordinary habit as it was removable and as such most members of monastic society did not don cloaks on a frequent basis.

It's unusual in that the virtually all of the Roman Catholic Military Orders took to wearing cloaks daily as part of their ordinary vestments, even though their various Rules made no mention of their mandatory usage. One can only assume that the cloaks were donned were done so as a type of device to differentiate the the warrior class of monks from the pacifistic monks.

Cloaks were highly popular and expensive articles of clothing for the elite secular classes of Western Europe during the Medieval Age and it is most likely because of this that use and wear of cloaks by Europe's ruling class that the military Orders took to wearing the cloak as a form of status symbol. oFrom various surviving accounts, one may plainly see the cloak being worn at all times during the latter part of the Crusades , even during the hottest weather, which leads one to conclude that by the time the Crusading period was starting to draw to a close, the cloak no was longer considered to be merely a utilitarian article of clothing and it had become a status symbol.

Even the Templar Primitive Rule specifically outlines the color and donning of the cloak, as it outlined below:
17. We command that all the brothers' habits should always be of one colour,
that is white or black or brown. And we grant to all knight brothers in winter
and in summer if possible, white cloaks; and no-one who does not belong to the
aforementioned Knights of Christ is allowed to have a white cloak, so that
those who have abandoned the life of darkness will recognise each other as
being reconciled to their creator by the sign of the white habits: which
signifies purity and complete chastity. Chastity is certitude of heart and
healthiness of body. For if any brother does not take the vow of chastity he
cannot come to eternal rest nor see God, by the promise of the apostle who
said: Pacem sectamini cum omnibus et castimoniam sine qua nemo Deum videbit.
That is to say: 'Strive to bring peace to all, keep chaste, without which
no-one can see God.'
18. But these robes should be without any finery and without any show of
pride. And so we ordain that no brother will have a piece of fur on his
clothes, nor anything else which belongs to the usages of the body, not even a
blanket unless it is of lamb's wool or sheep's wool. We command all to have
the same, so that each can dress and undress, and put on and take off his
boots easily. And the Draper or the one who is in his place should studiously
reflect and take care to have the reward of God in all the above-mentioned
things, so that the eyes of the envious and evil-tongued cannot observe that
the robes are too long or too short; but he should distribute them so that
they fit those who must wear them, according to the size of each one.
19. And if any brother out of a feeling of pride or arrogance wishes to have
as his due a better and finer habit, let him be given the worst. And those who
receive new robes must immediately return the old ones, to be given to the
squires and sergeants and often to the poor, according to what seems good to
the one who holds that office.
On Shirts
20. Among the other things, we mercifully rule that, because of the great
intensity of the heat which exists in the East, from Easter to All Saints,
through compassion and in no way as a right, a linen shirt shalt be given to
any brother who wishes to wear it.

Please forgive me for any misunderstanding my friend. My error was completely unintentional and as such, was not meant to belittle or seem to be argumentive. As an aside, please note that from the Primitive Rule onwards, the prescribed coloration of the habit for all Templars knights was to be all of one single color, therefoe we can assume that the various colorations of Templars habits as painted by the artists of the era was done so either out of ignorance or to add contrast and relief to what would have otherwise been a flat two dimensional image.
Your friend;
LAMAR
P.S. As an aside, I consider the Medieval Ages to have been the time between the fall of Rome in 400AD and the Reformation started by Martin Luther in 1453AD.
 

In Britain it is conventional to date the end of the Middle Ages in 1485 with the accession of the Tudors. Most people would date the Reformation from the date that Luther pinned up his 95 theses in 1517. Perhaps you are thinking of the fall of Constaninople? Luther was not even born in 1453.
Smithbrown
 

Dear Smithbrown;
Yes, my friend you are entirely correct. I apologize for my faux pas. When I become in involved in multiple discussions whilst trying to answer a PM or two at the same time, I tend to get names, dates and places mixed up. I do classify the end of Medieval period with the fall of Constaninople, while some tend to classify the major turning point event which kicked off the Renaissance was when Martin Luther publicly announced his 95 thesis. And of course the British, being very British, tend to use the very viable start of the Tudors as their major turning point in history.

The actual date of the end of the Middle Ages and the start of the Renaissance periods is a subject often debatds, mostly because the Renaissance era did not take place at the same time throughout the whole of Europe. For some countries, a true Renaissance did not take occur until well into the 1500s and even into the early 1600s.

Of course, when classifying an object or an idea into a period, I tend to look at it closely before offering a determination. Art is one such subject where it's a relatively simple matter of determining the style and therefore being able to attach it to a period, not taking into consideration the actual date in which the artwork was rendered. In the realm of the arts, paintings and sculptures were altered throughout the whole of Western Europe within the span of two decades. Considering the distances involved and the relative isolation of the various kingdoms, this reformation of art took place at practically the speed of light, in comparison to earlier changes.

In another area we can see a distinct study in contrasts, one of those being architeture. We can find existing Medieval style buildings which were constructed side by side within a few years of Renaissance structures, along with a very distinct overlapping of styles in certain examples. Politics, religion, the birth of modern science, all of these were altered forever with the coming of the Renaissance, and it is because of this turbulence that I tend to concentrate my efforts in a more stable period, where thoughts, ideas and concepts were often more clear cut and had far fewer fuzzy edges.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

As I said earlier, I do think this has gone so far off-topic to be a waste of time

Smithbrown
 

HOLA amigos,
Thom thank you for posting the links. The Oklahoma site I have to agree with you - I am still not sure why they concluded this was a Phoenician site? The queer stone formations look like a rare but still natural type of stone. Did they find some Phoenician inscription(s) or coins or other relics? I am aware of a few Punic (western Phoenicians) finds in OK, but not even in the same county as this site. I hope to learn more on this one. :read2:

The Colorado glyphs are even more fascinating, and I am sure that many will disagree with me on this, but I can see symbols which are very much "Old World" and ancient. <hope this works>
library.jpg


...you can easily see an Ogam inscription, along with clearly Amerindian symbols but a few that are very unusual - like what looks to be an "anchor" symbol right over what looks like 'water' along with a 'fishhook'. Anchors have not changed in form much for over 2000 years, but are Old World in origins. I thank you again for sharing this amigo, I now have to spend some hours examining the photo, sure wish I could get at my reference books though because I think I see Libyan, Tifinagh, and either Punic or Neo-punic in there too! I owe you yet another one buddy! :icon_thumright:
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

rangler,victoria mentioned or asked how did those folks move such large rocks?that brought to my mind a television show that i watched years ago.some foreigner(german i think)went down in florida in the years,20's,30's or so to build his sweet 16.most thought he was speaking about a woman,but that was,nt it.he found a very definate spot and BUILT his sweet16. he worked alone and moved stones weighing tons.he was not known to have a job,but when he died they found a wire going down into some type of pipe and pulling it out found a large sum of money tied to it.if you can find that full story,t would be very interesting.you mentioned the templars finding the longitude lines.i think the story of this man mentioned something of the longitude lines. one man told how the man asked him to bring his truck to move one stone.the man told the trucker to go around back while he loaded the stone.the trucker heard the stone being shoved on the bed of the truck and coming back around found the stone loaded and no other helpers were present and no machinery.wish i could remember more but time changes things.that incident has always been the biggest mystery to me. longitude and latitude--one man and his secret. just something else to add to moving big stones----------thanks tenclaw
 

HOLA amigos,
10claw wrote
rangler,victoria mentioned or asked how did those folks move such large rocks?that brought to my mind a television show that i watched years ago.some foreigner(german i think)went down in florida in the years,20's,30's or so to build his sweet 16.
Click to expand...

and hadji009 wrote
believe it was somewhere in florida.
Click to expand...

You are both correct, the fellow was named Leedskalnin and he built a virtual 'Coral Castle' in Florida for his sweetheart, whom never even saw it. (Unrequited love) Leedskalnin used only the simplest tools and NONE were power tools, he seemed to have learned the secrets of the ancients when it came to moving huge stone blocks around. There are a number of websites and magazine articles on it, here is one site

http://coralcastle.com <EDIT fixed this now the link should work>

Oroblanco
 

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