The Land of Ophir and the Ancients Ones....

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos - thank you for the very kind words, however ill-deserved I do hope to live up to them. Have to find a new hat for the swelled head too!

It is unusual to find myself on the same "side" of a discussion as our friend Lamar, and I have to wonder if ALL surviving Templars would have so readily obeyed the orders of the Pope to disband? I know that some can be accounted for - but are some not? If so, do we have the names of any who may not have simply switched to the Hospitallers or retired? Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[Shortstack]

I'm not a Mason, nor do I know a whole lot about them, but I wonder if maybe the original Knights Templars might have started the branch of the Masons referred to as the Knights Templars to separate themselves from the Pope's authority while keeping their allegiance to God.

Tonight, I was reading through some issues of the Edinburgh Scotland newspaper (about 1700s) and found an article reporting on an investigation into the wording of the pledge of the Knights Templars Masonic organization. The English hierarchy did not like the part of the pledge concerning it's support of treasonous activities if it became necessary in order to fulfill the Masonic mission.

 

[rangler]

Jason,
you had commented.......
I dont get it. all i see from that link is that this company did a bunch of assays and had an average of .664 grams per ton of gold, and an average 213.664 grams per ton of silver(approx 6 oz). in my opinion, not enough concntration to warrant a commercial mining venture.

im not being "difficult" i just dont see the relevance of a modern assay on a spanish occupation era mine to the possible presence of the Templars hundreds of years earlier. What am i missing here?

What you are missing is going back in time ,when the Templars discovered this mineral bearing area, the gold and silver in PLACER form , had been accumulating for about 2 million years and was virgin and rich! This all about 10 Centuries ago , now the tests were done for HARDROCK deposits, since most of the high grade gold had been weathered out and deposited in the stream beds, not much was left except for some low grade ore.

By the way modern gold mining technics of scale can produce a profit at ONE gram of gold per TON, at $1000 giver or take. Add that to the 6 oz of Silver per ton, with Silver at $15 per oz, compounded by the Mexican peso at 10-1 and you have a Mine that can pay..if not - you still have a marginal mine that can be used to offset profits elsewhere in the form of tax deductions..many ways to skin a oro cat senor!

My only point was that fact that gold and silver bearing veins, and this one was huge at 150 meters wide, when most veins are less that a foot or two. This physical evidence in close proximity to the Templars graves shows the links between them and the gold. The whole reason for them being there..kinda like forensic reconstruction of events over a 1000 years ago..Gold/Templars/Yep!

AS a miner I know that the '49ers struck a huge bonanza of gold , that again had been accumulating for a couple of million years, if you were to go there now, and pan for gold, you might only find a few specks, and wonder what all the fuss was about?, Once virgin ground is mined, it is gone, same logic ,
see what I am saying
rangler

 

[rigmover2307]

rangler, thanks for the clarification

 

[Springfield]

What you are missing is going back in time ,when the Templars discovered this mineral bearing area, the gold and silver in PLACER form (These were underground workings, Rag, not placer deposits, which are found in streams. By the way, there is no such thing as silver placer deposits) , had been accumulating for about 2 million years (where did this come from?) and was virgin and rich! This all about 10 Centuries ago , now the tests were done for HARDROCK deposits, since most of the high grade gold had been weathered out and deposited in the stream beds, not much was left except for some low grade ore. (Wrong again, Essey. These workings [some 30 feet deep] were originally worked for the ore in place, then abandoned when they played out. No indication of placer gold or previous workings in the report).

By the way modern gold mining technics of scale can produce a profit at ONE gram of gold per TON, at $1000 giver or take (you'd have to "give or take" quite a bit as 1 gram of gold is worth approximately $30 at today's gold spot value. Get your math right). Add that to the 6 oz of Silver per ton, with Silver at $15 per oz, compounded by the Mexican peso at 10-1 and you have a Mine that can pay..if not - you still have a marginal mine that can be used to offset profits elsewhere in the form of tax deductions..many ways to skin a oro cat senor! (The sharks would LOVE to fleece you as an investor in this empty hole in the ground. You'd need a mountain of $100 ore to make it pay, and there's no indication that this site would produce it).

My only point was that fact that gold and silver bearing veins, and this one was huge at 150 meters wide, (trace amounts only, not yet proven by a drilling program ... only a few samples) when most veins are less that a foot or two. This physical evidence in close proximity to the Templars graves shows the links between them and the gold. The whole reason for them being there..kinda like forensic reconstruction of events over a 1000 years ago..Gold/Templars/Yep!

AS a miner (HA!) I know that the '49ers struck a huge bonanza of gold , that again had been accumulating for a couple of million years, if you were to go there now, and pan for gold, you might only find a few specks, and wonder what all the fuss was about?, Once virgin ground is mined, it is gone, same logic ,
see what I am saying (Yes, I see exactly how your logic works. Conclusions drawn from speculation and fantasy. Caveat emptor.)
rangler

 

[tesoro dog]

WOW! This guy is using RED LETTERS,, He must really be upset!! By the way guy,, you spelled ESE wrong,, it is not Essey! td

 

[rigmover2307]

By the way, there is no such thing as silver placer deposits) ,

Ok then, when i run my material through my dredge at the claim in Naturita and come up with gold, platinum, and silver, what are those deposits called, after amalgamation of my black sand with mercury my resulting alloy contains 15 to 20 percent silver. could already be with the gold or occasional platinum flake, or could be in the black sand by itself. im not sure personally, just asking. i run all my material down to the black sand and metals then upon aaquisition of enough black sand i amalgamate and recover the metals. i have silver in my placer deposits, wether as an alloy or sulfide im not sure. i use mercury that is pre amalgamated with sodium metal to break down any sulfides and leave the metals. hence any gold or silver sulfides would be reduced by the sodium to gold and silver respectivly.

 

[Old Dog]

Most of mine turn out 15 to 20% silver using a mercury amalgam.
Had one once go 32% out by Leadville.
Maybe we are flukes

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

I just want to address one point,

Quote from: Springfield on Today at 03:15:58 PM

By the way, there is no such thing as silver placer deposits) ,

I respectfully disagree on this point, and while they are quite rare, there is such a thing as a placer silver deposit. I know of only two in the USA, both in Arizona, and directly associated with natural deposits of NATIVE silver. In fact one of the largest silver nuggets ever found was in Arizona, during Spanish colonial days. (The nugget weighed about 5000 pounds of nearly pure silver, leading to a legal controversy with the Spanish Crown and a "silver rush" that founded the town of Planchas de Plata) Silver nuggets are far more rare than gold nuggets.

BTW there are also platinum placers (as at Goodnews Bay, Alaska) diamond placers (as in nearby Wyoming and S. Africa) and even copper placers (also found in Alaska near the famous Kennecott copper mine, and in Michigan's U.P. etc). Not to mention rubies, emeralds, sapphires, etc. Placers of many valuable things....
Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,

I had to go in to the lab once because I had panned out some wierd short flat black stripps of something that were heavier that I expected,
They turned out to be wire silver. Was one of those rare days when you actually get an ounce or more.
I thought it was strange because I had never found anything like it before.
It turned out to be a 4 oz day. what a bummer too. it was silver.

 

[goldguru]

Congrats to springfield..TY for shortening my thread

 

[Oroblanco]

Thom - I sure hope you saved those pieces of WIRE SILVER as they are what they call "Specimen" type finds! Worth a few shekels too! (A four ounce day - dang Thom now I know whom to ask when I need to borrow some pesos for a grubstake...heh heh!)
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,

That creek has a really high concentration of arsenic and cyanide, (my way of telling the location)
They say it was from a Canadian mining company that "grabbed the loot and ran back to Canada.
Left us holding the bag.

That silver was mostly a lot like coarse sand,
I kept at it because there seemed to be so much,
The valuable specimen silver is on matrix. none of this is.
But I did save a couple pieces that went over 3/8 of an inch.
and one piece that is 1/2 inch.
Good stuff to keep for the old mineral collection.

All the rest was amalgamated and retorted.
All in all I think silver was selling at $7.30 so ... yeah, what a day.
My total take was about 130 bucks. LOL, gold and all.

Thom

 

[rangler]

Got cha GG me2!

TTH's Argonauts
Gold can contain up to 20% silver by nature, but it can also be up to 22k pure. Once you take up mining for real and do it for a few decades you learn that NEARLY all hardrock mines where found by finding the placer gold in the streams and dry washes and tracking it up stream to its source, which would be the outcropping of hardrock, or gold in quartz. .The ancient argonauts would mine the placer gold first as this was the easiest, then as the placer pinched out, then they would look for the source, so it was in the olden days, so it was in ReDe Metallica! All REAL miners know this, Geesh!

Any metal can be weathered out of its matrix or host rock and be flushed in to streams ,where it get ground down and worn to show up as nuggets. I have found a few Platinum nuggets and some have found garnets and diamonds as well.

The point of the post was again, we have Templar graves! .hello. and we have gold and silver bearing ground nearby.period.
Now consider that this is one ONE degree on the 360 degree compass rose..we have NO idea of what bonanza discoveries where in the surrounding countryside....The Templar graves were not there because they died one day on their way to a U2 concert or a bbq, more likely they fled the Kings bbq. They were financing the building the Cathedrals of Europe! They needed gold form Ophir or anywhere they could find it!

Exhibit A, Templar Graves in the Outback of Mexico
Exhibit B, In the Middle of Gold Country

I submit to you a jury their peers, of true treasure hunters
and agronauts would find them GUILTY!
[GUILTY OF MINING GOLD!!]
I rest my case-
rangler

 

[VICTORIO]

Rangler, What other signs might one look for in a Templar grave. What would a Templar grave look like. Thanks !!!

 

[Springfield]

HOLA amigos,
... In fact one of the largest silver nuggets ever found was in Arizona, during Spanish colonial days. (The nugget weighed about 5000 pounds of nearly pure silver, leading to a legal controversy with the Spanish Crown and a "silver rush" that founded the town of Planchas de Plata) Silver nuggets are far more rare than gold nuggets.

BTW there are also platinum placers (as at Goodnews Bay, Alaska) diamond placers (as in nearby Wyoming and S. Africa) and even copper placers (also found in Alaska near the famous Kennecott copper mine, and in Michigan's U.P. etc). Not to mention rubies, emeralds, sapphires, etc. Placers of many valuable things....

Yes, you are correct Roy, this famous anomaly stands nearly by itself, but was not a 'placer mine' as we generally consider them, i.e. simple, low-tech gravity separation of valuable native crystals removed from concentrated deposits. Gold, gems, etc. of course have been recovered this way for milennia. There are no native silver nuggets (OK, very, very rare) because the elements dissolve/corrode native silver - and very quickly in water. Yes, most gold placer mines do recover silver, platinum, copper, etc., either alloyed with the gold nuggets or in trace amounts (usually tied up in complex compounds) in the sands, but in the historical period (pre-technology), these were not a factor for the prospectors. As far as gold placers are concerned, most were deposited many, many millenia ago, frequently in ancient drainages with their original gold souces long ago eroded away. Most of the big placers never led the miners to a load deposit. While Ragler is correct that some valuable load deposits were located by jackass prospectors following float to its origin, most were not. A lot of gold has been recovered in gold placers over the ages, but much, much more from lode deposits discovered by other means.

 

[Springfield]

Rangler, What other signs might one look for in a Templar grave. What would a Templar grave look like. Thanks !!!

I know of only one guy who has possible credible experience in this realm, and it ain't Ragler.

 

[rangler]

Victorio,
The Templar grave in this instance is shown by the elaborate carving on the pic posted by
Desert Moons, exactly like the ones found in Europe. The fact that they are rare indeed precludes
anyone from being an expert, they are found by accident only! This one appears to be the ONLY
one found in North America, in a 1000 years! - we have the carving on rock of a Knights Templar
at the Sinclair Tower mentioned earlier in this thread but not the sarcophagus.

More mines were found by prospecting placer ground, in the early times than anything else,
We are talking about ancient mining here after all.
i rest my case
rangler

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The drawing posted above is not that of a Templar. First and foremost, a Templar would never be buried in breeches. Professed Templars knights were always buried in full habit, which consisted of tunic, robe, cloak and sandals or short boots without lacings.

Also, regarding the renderings of alleged Templar knights, please note the red 8 pointed octagonal cross was never centered on the chest, rather it was always prominently displayed on the left breasts and sleeves of the Templars robes or tunics. Also, the red octagonal cross was never worn on the backs or shields of the Templars at any time during their existence.

Also, as a note of historical fact, please consider that the red cross worn by the Templars was not used before 1147 when it was authorized by Pope Eugene III. Before this time, the Templar habit was barren of any and all crosses or other devices.

On the other hand, the Hospitallers of St. John always displayed their devices (ie. white crosses on a black or red background) centered on the breasts and backs of their habits as did the Teutonic Knights. Also, please note that the livery of the Hospitallers was originally a white cross on a black background until 1259 when it was changed to a white cross on a red background.

Many modern-day *researchers* seem to have given artistic license to the renderings of what medieval Templars looked like, and as such they seem to blend the habits of the Templars, Hospitallers and other medieval religious military Orders together. Why they do this so often is a mystery to me. Perhaps they do so in order to try to achieve some sort of uniform continuity to the various crusading habits or perhaps they do so out of ignorance. In any event, their renderings are inaccurate and they are definitely in opposion to the Primitve Templar Rule as was first oulined by St. Bernard of Clairvaux in his worked titled " De laudibus Novae Militiae".

To sum up, the drawing that was posted above is definitely not that of a Templar Knight or Sergeant, nor does there exist any such likeness of a known Templar tomb in Europe. Effigies were not permitted on the tombs of the Templars as they were considered to be pretenious and vainglorious, both of which are sins directly linked to pride. As a point of fact, only European nobility were permitted to have their respective effigies carved above their sarcophagii as this was reserved to signify their supposed lofty stations they held while on Earth.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To bring more weight to bear on the discussion, I should now like to present further written evidence that the effigy in question could not have been a Templar. By the description of the effigy posted above, we may plainly read that:
and his feet and ankles bound with the ties of sandals.

This is not only forbidden, it is EXPRESSLY forbidden, and in writing. I now would like to take the opportunity to refer everyone to the Primitive Rule of the Order of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ:

On Pointed Shoes' and Shoe-Laces

22. We prohibit pointed shoes and shoe-laces and forbid any brother to wear them; nor do we permit them to those who serve the house for a fixed term; rather we forbid them to have shoes with points or laces under any circumstances. For it is manifest and well known that these abominable things belong to pagans. Nor should they wear their hair or their habits too long. For those who serve the sovereign creator must of necessity be born within and without through the promise of God himself who said: Estote mundi quia ego mundus sum. That is to say: 'Be born as I am born.'


Not only were Templars forbidden to have laced footware, they were forbidden to have them under ANY circumstances.
Your friend;
LAMAR