The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[lokiblossom]

The quote "more that likely" is directly attributed to counter views of Templars using the ports of Marseilles and Collioure, which they did of course. In this particular case the Order was basically leaving Cyprus and knew of trouble brewing in France which is why their own port of La Rochelle would have been a favored destination from which to escape to anywhere in the Atlantic region if necessary ie, Scotland, Portugal, Ireland or ect. The "fact" that late 14th century vessels had evolved to the point that sailing around the Iberian Peninsula made that a more viable option is why I used the quote.

117 years earlier, In 1190, Richard I (the Lionheart) successfully sent his very large fleet around the Iberian Peninsula.

As for pirates, there were 60 knights on board these ships along with at least 60 squires and the Templars who operated the ships. I don't think a couple of vessels with marauding pirates would have been much of a problem.

Another point is that the Templar vessels carried cargos of several tons of gold, silver and other treasures plus at least 200 horses and their feed. In either the port of Marseilles or Collioure they didn't have the infrastructure to transport such a cargo any great distance, but La Rochelle a port they had full control of and from where they operated a lucrative trade with all the cities up and down the Atlantic Coast would have had the suitable equipment.

The Templars operated locally out of Collioure into the Languedoc region. To assume they would carry many tons of freight over terrible roads during the little ice age four to five hundred miles with little equipment, when they could (at the time) sail their vessels directly to a destination, remembering at the same time they may have needed those same vessels to escape France in a hurry, doesn't make much sense to me.

One more point to consider is in Evelyn Lords statement that indicates a suitable number of vessels already at La Rochelle to accomplish everything I premise even without the Cyprus Fleet.

Cheers, Loki

The amount of gold (150,000 florins) and treasure along with the 60 Knights is a fact covered by a well respected Templar historian. The number of horses with their feed are speculation arrived at by most Templar historians noting that each Knight could own three horses and have at least one squire accompany him.Of course you do not respect "any" Templar historians, but many others do.

It is also noted that the Pope had ordered de Molay to come to Poitiers without any entourage which order he evidently ignored.

The fact is they would have been transporting many tons of freight in this particular instance.

Cheers, Loki

 

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[ECS]

The 150,000 gold florins and treasure along with 60 Knights is not a fact that proves that Gerard de Villers or any other Templar sat out to sea and sailed to Nova Scotia.
Just another in a long lists of unrelated facts utilized to bolster a very weak premise that lacks actual hard documented evidence directly related to proving the Templars were at Oak Island.
Why don't you post an actual quote from a "respected Templar historian" with their name and credentials that states that the Templars were at Nova Scotia and Oak Island in which they buried a treasure?

 

[lokiblossom]

I didn't reply because it was another one of you speculative assumptions- not every Templar Mediterranean galley voyage carried several tons of gold, silver, and other treasures plus at least 200 horses and their feed, that is an exaggeration not worth a rational comment
You seem to forget the Templar banking activities of Medieval "travelers checks" deposit money in France, and that amount was available in the Holy Land, and loans made with property as collateral.
There was no need for the Templars to constantly transport gold, silver, and treasure the Mediterranean. That is another supposition.

Yes, there was a road between Collioure and La Rochelle that the Templars used to transport good back and forth in wagons and carts, they did have a stable of draft horses at both ports, but that is your assumption that it was "many tons of freight".
The Templars probably transported "many tons of freight" between the two ports, but NOT on a single run, but over the course on many during their active commercial trading years.

Nope, (but it was a fact you claimed didn't exist) it was just an answer to this post! I correct one of your posts and you change the rules again. I should have added that they would have left Cyprus with coir ropes and packing (made from coconut fibre) dated to the late 13th century. Funny that coir (made from coconut fibre) showed up on Oak Island which has been dated to the 13th or 14th century

Don't you remember that a couple of days ago I wrote that I never said I had proof of anything, well except for their having left Cyprus in early 1307 with tons of treasure, 60 Knights and their entourage. Oh, and that they all disappeared along with Gerard de Villiers.

And I do have the several clues that I wrote about that point to a certain location in Nova Scotia, including the Shugborough code that when deciphered gives the coordinates of Nova Scotia. I know you don't agree with that but then you didn't decipher the code, that was me and Franklin. I wouldn't call that proof of anything though except that I did visit the site and found some unique items.

Didn't you write that nobody in 1307 would sail around the Iberian Peninsula, where I showed that King Richard the Lionheart had sent his whole British Fleet some 117 years earlier?

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

Question: If the Knight's Templar had 4 stone boxes of bones in the 14th Century could you speculate on to whom those bones might be?

 

[ECS]

...
Didn't you write that nobody in 1307 would sail around the Iberian Peninsula, where I showed that King Richard the Lionheart had sent his whole British Fleet so me 117 years earlier?

No, Loki, I didn't write that. Once again a misrepresentation of what I did state. You need to reed that post again, and work on your comprehension skills.

 

[lokiblossom]

This was done to avoid the risky passage through the Straights of Gibraltar, rarely did their Mediterranean fleet make this journey to La Rochelle.

I stand corrected, this is what you wrote not that 'nobody in 1307 would sail around the Iberian Peninsula in 1307'.

Although, Richard the Lionheart did send his whole British Fleet around the Iberian years earlier with no problems.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

... I do have the several clues that I wrote about that point to a certain location in Nova Scotia, including the Shugborough code that when deciphered gives the coordinates of Nova Scotia. I know you don't agree with that but then you didn't decipher the code, that was me and Franklin...

Are you aware that British author, adventurer, and treasure hunter, George Edmunds, in his 2016 book, ANSON's GOLD, stated the Shuborough code was an alphanumeric cipher for latitude and longtitude, and gave its location?
Also, like the Beale codes, there are many, many claimed solutions of the Shugborough, and none of them are the same.
Franklin can verify that for you.

 

[franklin]

Are you aware that British author, adventurer, and treasure hunter, George Edmunds, in his 2016 book, ANSON's GOLD, stated the Shuborough code was an alphanumeric cipher for latitude and longtitude, and gave its location?
Also, like the Beale codes, there are many, many claimed solutions of the Shugborough, and none of them are the same.
Franklin can verify that for you.

I have only seen three solutions, Petter Admundsen, lokiblossom and mine. All three went to Nova Scotia. Petter's was within 1 1/2 miles of Oak Island. Lokiblossom's was in the Anapolis Basin and mine was about 2 1/2 miles NE of Oak Island. The main stem of the Constellation of Cygnus is 17 miles West of Oak Island and the Star Deneb is in the right hand fork of the Bay of Fundy near Anapolis.

 

[ECS]

In addition to Edmunds and those on Franklin's above list, others claiming to have solved the Shugborough code include NSA analysis Keith Massey, Margaret, Countess of Litchfield, Steve Regimbal, A J Morton, and several dozens more.

 

[ECS]

.... I should have added that they would have left Cyprus with coir ropes and packing (made from coconut fibre) dated to the late 13th century.
Funny that coir (made from coconut fibre) showed up on Oak Island which has been dated to the 13th or 14th century

Don't you remember that a couple of days ago I wrote that I never said I had proof of anything,
well except for their having left Cyprus in early 1307 with tons of treasure, 60 Knights and their entourage.
Oh, and that they all disappeared along with Gerard de Villiers...

You do know the definition of "circumstantial evidence", don't you?
Still waiting for that supporting quote from the well respected Templar historians you keep mentioning that de Villiers and the Templars sailed to Nova Scotia.

 

[ECS]

Question: If the Knight's Templar had 4 stone boxes of bones in the 14th Century could you speculate on to whom those bones might be?

Is there a legitimate documented historical source that states that the Templar's "had 4 stone boxes of bones in the 14th century"?

 

[tinpan]

Hi Just how many barrels of water would 200 horses drink a day ? H.S or B.S TP

 

[ECS]

...
So you know for sure de Chalons would have lied...
This is a built up story designed to refute his testimony, the fact is that there would have been no reason to lie.
That he mentioned the leader of this group as Gerard de Villers gives it even more credence, and there is also the fact that the vessels did disappear with no record of where they went.
Were they there? of course they were, the Grand Master had just arrived from Cyprus with a large contingent of his forces and a large amount of treasure, and also in La Rochelle were all of the Orders trading ships'

What is the date that the Grand Master arrived at La Rochelle from Cyprus?
The Templars had NO foreknowledge that they would be arrested under the orders of King Phillip IV and charged with heresy.
The day before, October 12, 1307, Grand Master of the Temple de Molay was a pallbearer at the funeral of King Phillip IV sister in law, Princess Catherine of Courteney.
The arrests came as a total surprise, and the Templars had NO time to prepare an escape, gather their wealth and transport it to the alleged 18 galleys at La Rochelle.
The only mention of de Villers leading 50 horses comes from the June 1308 testimony of Jean de Chalons, and in that testimony stated that "he heard it said that he (de Villers) set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
"Heard it said" is not the same as knowing with direct knowledge that this actually occurred, or that there were 18 galleys at La Rochelle during the moth of October, 1307.

 

[lokiblossom]

You do know the definition of "circumstantial evidence", don't you?
Still waiting for that supporting quote from the well respected Templar historians you keep mentioning that de Villiers and the Templars sailed to Nova Scotia.

Yep, I do!

Don't have it, but I always said I never did.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

What is the date that the Grand Master arrived at La Rochelle from Cyprus?
The Templars had NO foreknowledge that they would be arrested under the orders of King Phillip IV and charged with heresy.
The day before, October 12, 1307, Grand Master of the Temple de Molay was a pallbearer at the funeral of King Phillip IV sister in law, Princess Catherine of Courteney.
The arrests came as a total surprise, and the Templars had NO time to prepare an escape, gather their wealth and transport it to the alleged 18 galleys at La Rochelle.
The only mention of de Villers leading 50 horses comes from the June 1308 testimony of Jean de Chalons, and in that testimony stated that "he heard it said that he (de Villers) set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
"Heard it said" is not the same as knowing with direct knowledge that this actually occurred, or that there were 18 galleys at La Rochelle during the moth of October, 1307.

All I know for sure is that de Molay was in Poitiers by the end of May, 1307!

Jean de Chalons said they knew beforehand. Actually, Philip had sent out orders to his seneschals and bailus in all parts of France in early September of 1307 which were not to be opened until October 13th. Remember Templars had supporters in all areas of France and many certainly knew Philip's agents or some even were Philip's agents.

As a matter of fact I think de Molay was even a pallbearer at the funeral of Philip's sister in law, in other words an insider to the royal family.

The Pope and King had discussed charges against the Order in May of 1307, about the time de Molay arrived in Poitiers, and the Pope had discussed same with the Grand Master, certainly they certainly knew of the trouble brewing.

Yep, that's what he said alright, He saw de Villers leading 50 horses! Do you have any direct knowledge that he lied or that he didn't hear it said about the 18 galleys?

Or that there were not 18 vessels in La Rochelle during the moth of October, 1307?

 

[ECS]

All I know for sure is that de Molay was in Poitiers by the end of May, 1307!...

...and it is known for sure that de Molay was a pallbearer at the funeral of Princess Catherine of Courteney, Phillip IV's sister in law, October 12, 1307.
You keep stating that the Grand Master arrived at La Rochelle from Cyprus.
What was the date if his arrival, how many galleys were involved, and what did they transport?

 

[lokiblossom]

All I know for sure is that de Molay was in Poitiers by the end of May, 1307!

Jean de Chalons said they knew beforehand. Actually, Philip had sent out orders to his seneschals and bailus in all parts of France in early September of 1307 which were not to be opened until October 13th. Remember Templars had supporters in all areas of France and many certainly knew Philip's agents or some even were Philip's agents.

As a matter of fact I think de Molay was even a pallbearer at the funeral of Philip's sister in law, in other words an insider to the royal family.

The Pope and King had discussed charges against the Order in May of 1307, about the time de Molay arrived in Poitiers, and the Pope had discussed same with the Grand Master, certainly they certainly knew of the trouble brewing.

Yep, that's what he said alright, He saw de Villers leading 50 horses! Do you have any direct knowledge that he lied or that he didn't hear it said about the 18 galleys?

Or that there were not 18 vessels in La Rochelle during the moth of October, 1307?

This is what I wrote, you must have missed it!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...
Jean de Chalons said they knew beforehand...
Yep, that's what he said alright, He saw de Villers leading 50 horses!
Do you have any direct knowledge that he lied or that he didn't hear it said about the 18 galleys?
Or that there were not 18 vessels in La Rochelle during the moth of October, 1307?

The point you keep ignoring is that de Chalons' testimony is the ONLY mention of de Villers and the 18 galleys setting out to sea from La Rochelle.
No contemporary medieval document exists that collaborates de Chalons' testimony. and p
Incidentally, are you familiar with the rest of de Chalons' testimony and what he stated about Gerard de Villers bizarre rituals that he forced upon other Templars and having them imprisoned or put to death if they didn't comply?
Jean de Chalons was a guard at that Templar prison presenting an actual eye witness account of de Villers unsavory activities.
If you accept that he hard about the 18 galleys and de Villers setting out from La Rochelle as true and proof, then you must accept the rest of de Chalons' statements concerning de Villers as true.

 

[franklin]

If you can read different documents in different languages the Vatican is placing their library on the Internet. Maybe you can go there and find the facts you seek. I can not read Latin, Greek, Italian or whatever other languages is stored in the Vatican. But one thing I am sure the information every seeks is in the Vatican.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Hi Just how many barrels of water would 200 horses drink a day ? H.S or B.S TP

Depending on the breed a horse needs 5 to 10 gallons of water per day. As we are discussing knights we can assume large war breeds. A wood barrel is between 43 (std UK beer) and around 60 gallons (std French wine) - so ten large or 14 small barrels a day for 60 horses. Ships of the day might have been able to accommodate 20 to two-dozen horses. So the "fleet" would likely have needed three ships just for horses . . . assuming a lot. Like the knights were all mounted, brought their horses, and ever went anywhere across the Atlantic.

Side note - there were specialized ships used solely for horse transport. You get a horse to unwharfed shoreline it's still a chore to get it off the ship.