The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[lokiblossom]

Why don't you cite that "contemporary source".
It is common knowledge that"common knowledge" is not the same as verified hard factual documented evidence.

Is it the same as "contemporary mention"? (post 916)

Then you are claiming you have never read a complete history of the Knights Templar? How about Charles Addison, Michael Haag, Piers Paul Read or Malcolm Barber, those should keep you busy for a day or two. Pay particular attention to Addison's account of de Molay's answer to the Pope's request and his leaving Cyprus with 60 knights who had a squire and at least 3 horses each, also to the amount of treasure they carried.

Again, why would de Chalon's lie under oath and why a lie that basically only backs up what would be common knowledge,ie, Templar Vessels were in Port, Templar Vessels left Port, Gerard de Villers was second in command of the Templars in France, The Grand Master was arrested, de Villers is "said" to have become Grand Master (this is not verified), de Villers disappeared, the vessels were never seen again, de Villers was never seen again, becoming the most wanted man in France.


Cheers, Loki

 

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[ECS]

None of your speculation and supposition is considered as evidence that de Villers or any Templar sailed to Nova Scotia with the intent to bury a "treasure" on Oak Island.
Once again, you are mentioning Addison, Haag, Read, and Barber, why don't you post a quote where these authors state that the Templars voyaged to Oak Island.?

 

[lokiblossom]

None of your speculation and supposition is considered as evidence that de Villers or any Templar sailed to Nova Scotia with the intent to bury a "treasure" on Oak Island.
Once again, you are mentioning Addison, Haag, Read, and Barber, why don't you post a quote where these authors state that the Templars voyaged to Oak Island.?

Our last discussion was about de Chalons and whether or not he lied about de Villers and vessels leaving La Rochelle in 1307. Now you change the rules, does that mean you accept that de Chalons didn't lie? Lets attempt to settle that little argument first, please.

Cheers, Loki

 

[tinpan]

Hi Coconut Trade Java Indonesia 12th to 16th Century Controlled by the Majopahit Empire Main currency trade silver ingots . Silver ingots were paid to Imperialist China as Tribute . Found in most of Southeast Asia and Islands off the Coast of Australia . No records of Crusaders or any other Europeans . TP

 

[Dave Rishar]

1. No evidence that the Cathars possessed the Grail beyond legend, and myth, rendering their religious not relevant to the Templars in Oak Island discussion.

Here's a fun little question: what evidence is there of the Grail ever existing in the first place?

Like the Money Pit, the Holy Grail is one of those legends where I feel that we sort of talked past the important questions. Everybody wants to know where it is, but nobody wants to know why it first appeared as an allegorical reference in a poem 1000 years after the fact.

 

[lokiblossom]

Here's a fun little question: what evidence is there of the Grail ever existing in the first place?

Like the Money Pit, the Holy Grail is one of those legends where I feel that we sort of talked past the important questions. Everybody wants to know where it is, but nobody wants to know why it first appeared as an allegorical reference in a poem 1000 years after the fact.

What it is, becomes the most important question. In that regard it is my opinion that Dan Brown had that part of the equation right. Why it came up 1000 years after the fact is that the 1st Crusade brought the information to light. Although, in France a small group actually lived the story.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Hi Coconut Trade Java Indonesia 12th to 16th Century Controlled by the Majopahit Empire Main currency trade silver ingots . Silver ingots were paid to Imperialist China as Tribute . Found in most of Southeast Asia and Islands off the Coast of Australia . No records of Crusaders or any other Europeans . TP

Exactly!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Our last discussion was about de Chalons and whether or not he lied about de Villers and vessels leaving La Rochelle in 1307. Now you change the rules, does that mean you accept that de Chalons didn't lie? Lets attempt to settle that little argument first, please.

Doesn't really matter if he lied or not, now does it, Loki, as it is the only contemporary mention of de Villers setting out to sea from La Rochelle derived under the duress of torture and if you have read that Vatican Archive, Jean de Chalons stated that "he heard it said that he (de Villers) set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
"He heard it said" is not considered first hand knowledge, but hearsay, and not considered as true evidence- I thought you realized and understood that fact.

 

[lokiblossom]

Doesn't really matter if he lied or not, now does it, Loki, as it is the only contemporary mention of de Villers setting out to sea from La Rochelle derived under the duress of torture and if you have read that Vatican Archive, Jean de Chalons stated that "he heard it said that he (de Villers) set out to sea with eighteen galleys".
"He heard it said" is not considered first hand knowledge, but hearsay, and not considered as true evidence- I thought you realized and understood that fact.

And again you change the game, you were claiming he lied and that was our discussion, now it doesn't matter. Of course it doesn't matter because the ships were there and they disappeared as he stated and de Villers disappeared at the same time as was stated.

Cheers, Loki

 

[SSR]

The grail is a myth that as has a mythical tradition. We are told it resides in the in-between place between dualities where "neutral" angels allegedly brought it down to Earth. It has no physical reality and never did in any religious tradition. If you possess the grail you posses Knowledge of what is at the inner ninth level of Enoch's chamber that is symbolized by the money pit. It's the inner most realm in each of us. The story of Enoch is clear about what happens if you try and pierce this mystery at the center of everything. The shaft will first flood and then it will collapse on you. The myth is what is represented in OI legend. To not appreciate this mythology and to go looking for a literal interpretation of what you are given in stories is a tragic tale. Before there were searches on OI in 1848 Thomas Haliburton wrote that men would die in shafts trying to find a treasure in Chester Bay. That did in fact ensue. Human nature is that predictable.

 

[ECS]

I never said de Chalons lied, Loki, that is another your misinterpreted assumptions of mine and others posts.

 

[lokiblossom]

Is there any other documents or contemporary accounts that collaborate Jean de Chalons tortured and forced testimony that can prove that de Villers actually "set out to sea with eighteen galleys"?
Is there also a listing of what consisted of "the whole treasure of Brother de Pairaud"?
Could this testimony be the ravings of a tortured man in pain who would tell his Church interrogators whatever they wanted to hear to end his suffering?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

5. de Chalon's testimony was forced under torture, deemed as the most unreliable form of interrogation, for the victim will say and confess to anything to end his suffering.

7. As noted in answer #5, a tortured testimony or confession is NOT reliable.
The questions you keep avoiding, Loki;
1. Outside of de Chalon's torture forced testimony as noted in the Vatican Report, is there any contemporary mention of de Villers and the 18 galleys escaping from the port of La Rochelle?

Cheers, Loki

 

[sasquash]

Diana Muir about the lead cross:

In reference to the lead cross found on Oak Island, if you look at the original pictures of it when they first found it, they accidentally turned it over at the table. On the back of it, on the right arm of the cross are the numbers 5/9. probably a wrench of some kind.

Scott Wolter Answers: The Lost Templar Journals of Prince Henry Sinclair ? Vol. 1

Enjoy !

 

[ECS]

Loki, stating that forced confession or testimony by torture is NOT RELIABLE is NOT the same as saying de Chalons lied.
Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have posted ?
Nowhere in the quotes you so graciously reposted on POSTS #932 & 933 is the word "lied" mentioned.
Thank you for proving that ot is your assumption, and not what I stated.

 

[Al D]

Diana Muir about the lead cross:

In reference to the lead cross found on Oak Island, if you look at the original pictures of it when they first found it, they accidentally turned it over at the table. On the back of it, on the right arm of the cross are the numbers 5/9. probably a wrench of some kind.

Scott Wolter Answers: The Lost Templar Journals of Prince Henry Sinclair ? Vol. 1

Enjoy !

The very notion of a wrench being made out of lead is perposterous

 

[lokiblossom]

Loki, stating that forced confession or testimony by torture is NOT RELIABLE is NOT the same as saying de Chalons lied.
Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have posted ?
Nowhere in the quotes you so graciously reposted on POSTS #932 & 933 is the word "lied" mentioned.
Thank you for proving that ot is your assumption, and not what I stated.

lie; a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive!

I want to make one thing clear, that is, I am not accusing you of lying. I believe you are simply mistaken about the definition.

In all of our discussions about Jean de Chalons' testimony I have argued that he wouldn't have lied and thought you were arguing that he would have because he was under torture. You must be able to understand why I would write that you thought it was lying, because he didn't tell the truth. Now you claim I misrepresent you because I continue to use that same argument. Again you change the rules.

Ok, than I will agree that he didn't lie and I was the one mistaken. In other words he told the truth during his interrogation, is that correct?


Cheers, Loki

 

[tinpan]

Hi More than 50,000 women where burnt or hung for witchcraft based on a signed confession . Witches are real right . There again there is no debate . When church and state was one removal of threat in a well orchestrated fabrication would bring those passing judgements power and wealth. TP

 

[tinpan]

lie; a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive!

I want to make one thing clear, that is, I am not accusing you of lying. I believe you are simply mistaken about the definition.

In all of our discussions about de Chalons' testimony I have argued that he wouldn't have lied and thought you were arguing that he would have because he was under torture. You must be able to understand why I would write that you thought it was lying, because he didn't tell the truth. Now you claim I misrepresent you because I continue to use that same argument. Again you change the rules.

Ok, than I will agree that he didn't lie and I was the one mistaken. In other words he told the truth during his interrogation, is that correct?


Cheers, Loki

Hi .Might be an idea to remember young women were burnt as witches in North America . The new world of the freedom of religious beliefs TP

 

[ECS]

...
In all of our discussions about de Chalons' testimony I have argued that he wouldn't have lied and thought you were arguing that he would have because he was under torture.
You must be able to understand why I would write that you thought it was lying, because he didn't tell the truth. Now you claim I misrepresent you because I continue to use that same argument.
Again you change the rules...

What rules am I changing, Loki?
Confession obtained from torture are NOT considered as reliable, and de Chalons testimony reference to de Villers setting out to sea in 18 galleys is something "he heard it said" hearsay, not de Chalons actual witnessing this happening.
For this testimony to be employed as fact to build a premise that de Villers and the La Rochelle Templars sailed to Nova Scotia, with or not with Henry Sinclair, depending on who is writing this story, outside collaboration from a contemporary medieval source is required before de Chalons testimony can be accepted as fact.

*NOTE* Contemporary medieval collaborating source is NOT a quote from HBHG by Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln, but actual verified documented from the 14th century.