Hey, Hey... I'm now a Senior Member...LOL. what does that mean...
Janiece
Janiece
the everything site ...?
- Thread starter the blindbowman
- Start date
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Yer getting SS now LUV?
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy,
"Anyway my money would be on a Thunderbird pictogram rather than Quetzalcoatl."
While Thunderbird stories are ancient in the Southwest, I believe that many depictions of it are of modern-day creation. I looked into the subject some time ago, and that's what I remember from that research. I suppose I could find it again, but will accept my poor memory as "fact", for the moment. Hopefully a qualified opinion will come along to set the record straight.
Take care,
Joe
"Anyway my money would be on a Thunderbird pictogram rather than Quetzalcoatl."
While Thunderbird stories are ancient in the Southwest, I believe that many depictions of it are of modern-day creation. I looked into the subject some time ago, and that's what I remember from that research. I suppose I could find it again, but will accept my poor memory as "fact", for the moment. Hopefully a qualified opinion will come along to set the record straight.
Take care,
Joe
somehiker
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- May 1, 2007
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Don and Joe:
Well then,if when I finally do get up there,should I by chance find a really big nest fulla bones beneath that there funny lookin stain,well I can guarantee both of you that I will set a new record for gettin offa that there hill.And that's a "fact"!!.And I won't be stoppin to take no pictures either!
Regards:SH.
BTW:anyone seen Randy lately?
Well then,if when I finally do get up there,should I by chance find a really big nest fulla bones beneath that there funny lookin stain,well I can guarantee both of you that I will set a new record for gettin offa that there hill.And that's a "fact"!!.And I won't be stoppin to take no pictures either!
Regards:SH.
BTW:anyone seen Randy lately?
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy and SH,
Most of the Thunderbird designs that we are familiar with today, were derived from a very successful effort by the Fred Harvey Co. to create jewelry, to be made by Native Americans, and sold from the many Harvey Houses.
The original dies were supplied to the Native Americans around 1900 - 1930.
Obviously, the stories are many generations older than that, but are more indigenous to the Plains Indians than our Southwestern tribes. The Giant Knife-Wing was a symbol used by the Zuni and Kwatoko, the vulture, was important to the Hopi.
Any petroglyphs found of Thunderbirds in the Southwest, are likely creations of post 1900 artists.
As I mentioned before, someone with a qualified
opinion may correct me.
Take care,
Joe
Most of the Thunderbird designs that we are familiar with today, were derived from a very successful effort by the Fred Harvey Co. to create jewelry, to be made by Native Americans, and sold from the many Harvey Houses.
The original dies were supplied to the Native Americans around 1900 - 1930.
Obviously, the stories are many generations older than that, but are more indigenous to the Plains Indians than our Southwestern tribes. The Giant Knife-Wing was a symbol used by the Zuni and Kwatoko, the vulture, was important to the Hopi.
Any petroglyphs found of Thunderbirds in the Southwest, are likely creations of post 1900 artists.
As I mentioned before, someone with a qualified
opinion may correct me.Take care,
Joe
Old Dog
Gold Member
Oroblanco
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Cactusjumper wrote:
Can you cite authorities who will support your contention that any petroglyphs of Thunderbirds found in the Southwest are likely creations of post-1900 artists? I respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it is obvious that my "un-qualified opinion" carries no weight with you. Here is one example of a Thunderbird petroglyph from the Minnesota river basin, not in the Southwest mind you but dating back 5000 years
The Garden of the Gods petroglyphs in Colorado include Thunderbirds and is believed to date to before 1900, read:
http://www.coloradorocks.org/Articles/Garden_of_the_Gods_Petroglyph-Steven_Veatch_CSMS[1].doc
here is an example from Missouri
I am pretty sure that the Thunderbird symbol has quite a long history in America, including the Southwest.
though I am aware that some Native American Art web sites claim that the symbol was a modern import with no history in the Southwest;
I therefore must remain in respectful disagreement with you Joe, but I could be mistaken.
Oroblanco
EDIT ADDED LATER
PS - Joe I did a bit more looking and will agree with your statement IN PART - that in Southwestern Amerindian JEWELRY the Thunderbird does not appear prior to 1900 - at least I can't find an example of it, and there is a story floating about that the symbol was imported in the 1900's. However I restrict this to JEWELRY alone, in Petroglyphs and Pictograms, the Thunderbird was present well before that date.
Can you cite authorities who will support your contention that any petroglyphs of Thunderbirds found in the Southwest are likely creations of post-1900 artists? I respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it is obvious that my "un-qualified opinion" carries no weight with you. Here is one example of a Thunderbird petroglyph from the Minnesota river basin, not in the Southwest mind you but dating back 5000 years
The Garden of the Gods petroglyphs in Colorado include Thunderbirds and is believed to date to before 1900, read:
http://www.coloradorocks.org/Articles/Garden_of_the_Gods_Petroglyph-Steven_Veatch_CSMS[1].doc
here is an example from Missouri
I am pretty sure that the Thunderbird symbol has quite a long history in America, including the Southwest.
though I am aware that some Native American Art web sites claim that the symbol was a modern import with no history in the Southwest;
(from http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i2/thunderbirds.asp)
I therefore must remain in respectful disagreement with you Joe, but I could be mistaken.
Oroblanco
EDIT ADDED LATER
PS - Joe I did a bit more looking and will agree with your statement IN PART - that in Southwestern Amerindian JEWELRY the Thunderbird does not appear prior to 1900 - at least I can't find an example of it, and there is a story floating about that the symbol was imported in the 1900's. However I restrict this to JEWELRY alone, in Petroglyphs and Pictograms, the Thunderbird was present well before that date.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good evening ORO: You posted -->
The Yaqui Indians spoke of a giant bird that lived on the hill of Otan Kawi. Every morning it would fly out to capture its human prey. After many deaths, a young boy who lost his family to this bird killed the creature with a bow and arrows.3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Having lived with the Yaqui for years, I had a slightly different version given to me. According to Juan, in those days the Yaqui were only approx. 4 ft tall. There were many of these birds in the surrounding mts. that preyed upon the children, or smaller Yaqui..
One day a gigantic Negro appeared and settled down with them. He took up the struggle for the Yaqui and commenced to kill the birds, destroy their nests, and break the eggs. finally the birds left the area, never to return.
The negro became a saint or hero to the Yaqui, and when he died he was placed in a special cave which is on my friend's parcel of land. He took me there to see the skeleton, it was of a normal sized human. This went contrary to what I could find out since the Yaqui were of normal size when the first Spanish arrived.
However, when they were constructing the new irrigation canal, which I was indirectly responsible for, they found stone utensils scaled to people of 4 ft? Upon questioning, I found there was no such thing as a pure blood Yaqui, they allowed any large person that wished, to live withthem In a few generations they reached their present size. - some are over 6 '
I believe that they called the huge birds "Yo-obwa". I had compiled a small book on their history, customs, religious beliefs, and stories in general. They presented me with the bible in Yaqui as a token of friendship. No , I haven't read it yet, my Yaqui isn't all that good. ERWI? heheeh
I have personally walked over most of the Bacatetes and know it as well as any Yaqui. I have many many stories on and about them. Some day I may post some of them.
Don Jose de La Mancha
The Yaqui Indians spoke of a giant bird that lived on the hill of Otan Kawi. Every morning it would fly out to capture its human prey. After many deaths, a young boy who lost his family to this bird killed the creature with a bow and arrows.3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Having lived with the Yaqui for years, I had a slightly different version given to me. According to Juan, in those days the Yaqui were only approx. 4 ft tall. There were many of these birds in the surrounding mts. that preyed upon the children, or smaller Yaqui..
One day a gigantic Negro appeared and settled down with them. He took up the struggle for the Yaqui and commenced to kill the birds, destroy their nests, and break the eggs. finally the birds left the area, never to return.
The negro became a saint or hero to the Yaqui, and when he died he was placed in a special cave which is on my friend's parcel of land. He took me there to see the skeleton, it was of a normal sized human. This went contrary to what I could find out since the Yaqui were of normal size when the first Spanish arrived.
However, when they were constructing the new irrigation canal, which I was indirectly responsible for, they found stone utensils scaled to people of 4 ft? Upon questioning, I found there was no such thing as a pure blood Yaqui, they allowed any large person that wished, to live withthem In a few generations they reached their present size. - some are over 6 '
I believe that they called the huge birds "Yo-obwa". I had compiled a small book on their history, customs, religious beliefs, and stories in general. They presented me with the bible in Yaqui as a token of friendship. No , I haven't read it yet, my Yaqui isn't all that good. ERWI? heheeh
I have personally walked over most of the Bacatetes and know it as well as any Yaqui. I have many many stories on and about them. Some day I may post some of them.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Oroblanco
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HOLA amigos,
Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas de Tayopa wrote:
Thank you for that interesting bit of history amigo, as you know I am interested in Cryptozoology and the local names for the "giant bird" that preyed on humans are something I have been looking for. I haven't run across the Pima name, by any chance do you happen to know what it was?
Jose' you know some Yaqui right? What would "ki-naa-ni" mean in Yaqui? Thank you in advance,
*(apologies for drifting so far off-topic, but I will attempt to tie this all back in if requested.)*
Oroblanco
Don Jose', Dueno de Real e Minas de Tayopa wrote:
Thank you for that interesting bit of history amigo, as you know I am interested in Cryptozoology and the local names for the "giant bird" that preyed on humans are something I have been looking for. I haven't run across the Pima name, by any chance do you happen to know what it was?
Jose' you know some Yaqui right? What would "ki-naa-ni" mean in Yaqui? Thank you in advance,
*(apologies for drifting so far off-topic, but I will attempt to tie this all back in if requested.)*
Oroblanco
somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
- 4,365
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- Primary Interest:
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Fellas:
Just to set the record straight.I'm not really expecting to see any winged mythical flying objects out there,WMFO's aren't of much interest to me,really.
I'm pretty much up to speed on old pictographs,petroglyphs and related bird depictions--many of which eager viewers describe as that of the legendary thunderbird.Most of these were probably representations of many of the birds of prey or those preyed upon by the locals.Turkeys and turkey vultures for example.
After all,deer,moose,lizards,turtles,snakes etc are common subjects of this artform. We all have come across modern chippings out there as well.We should know how to tell the difference."Thunderbird" was the first word that came to mind when I spotted that interesting gathering of blotches on the canyon wall as well as the words "fake" and "hoax".The first thought was rejected immediately but the others linger.
Regards:SH.
Just to set the record straight.I'm not really expecting to see any winged mythical flying objects out there,WMFO's aren't of much interest to me,really.
I'm pretty much up to speed on old pictographs,petroglyphs and related bird depictions--many of which eager viewers describe as that of the legendary thunderbird.Most of these were probably representations of many of the birds of prey or those preyed upon by the locals.Turkeys and turkey vultures for example.
After all,deer,moose,lizards,turtles,snakes etc are common subjects of this artform. We all have come across modern chippings out there as well.We should know how to tell the difference."Thunderbird" was the first word that came to mind when I spotted that interesting gathering of blotches on the canyon wall as well as the words "fake" and "hoax".The first thought was rejected immediately but the others linger.
Regards:SH.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Allo mi buddy ORO: you posted -->
Jose' you know some Yaqui right? What would "ki-naa-ni" mean in Yaqui?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I mentioned, my command of Yaqui was not good enough for me to read the Bible which they gave me. We conversed in Spanish, most Yaqui do. The same goes for the Mayo and Pima also. However, I will be home the last part of this week and will check on it if you really wish to know.
The Yaqui language is a difficult one, it is said by many, that you have to be born a Yaqui to "really" understand it since, like may of our own words, intonation, location, and intention determines final context.
A crude example is simply our word "OH". this can run the gauntlet from an insult, a question, understanding, agreement, lack of interest, or almost any "whatever" etc., simply by intonation and a bit of intent or context.
Some day you will have to go with me to the the shallow cave on the mt's above Chinapas to see the paintings. They drew the foot prints of every living thing in the area in actual size, including the footprints of the Giants. It was reported to me that the last Giant was killed at the start of the1900's. He was about 9 ft tall.
They also painted what I believe is basic the story of Christ and the first Spanish with their horses. Then we have the graves of the giants over at Camotes in the Cerro del Campana. The remains of the little ones, similar to the former Yaqui near Agua Caliente and on. Not the least, my huge aquatic serpent that was the cause of me using mi undies while swimming after seeing it in the upper Fuerte river.
Sorry for the long rambling post (not really heheh)
Don Jose de La Mancha
Jose' you know some Yaqui right? What would "ki-naa-ni" mean in Yaqui?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I mentioned, my command of Yaqui was not good enough for me to read the Bible which they gave me. We conversed in Spanish, most Yaqui do. The same goes for the Mayo and Pima also. However, I will be home the last part of this week and will check on it if you really wish to know.
The Yaqui language is a difficult one, it is said by many, that you have to be born a Yaqui to "really" understand it since, like may of our own words, intonation, location, and intention determines final context.
A crude example is simply our word "OH". this can run the gauntlet from an insult, a question, understanding, agreement, lack of interest, or almost any "whatever" etc., simply by intonation and a bit of intent or context.
Some day you will have to go with me to the the shallow cave on the mt's above Chinapas to see the paintings. They drew the foot prints of every living thing in the area in actual size, including the footprints of the Giants. It was reported to me that the last Giant was killed at the start of the1900's. He was about 9 ft tall.
They also painted what I believe is basic the story of Christ and the first Spanish with their horses. Then we have the graves of the giants over at Camotes in the Cerro del Campana. The remains of the little ones, similar to the former Yaqui near Agua Caliente and on. Not the least, my huge aquatic serpent that was the cause of me using mi undies while swimming after seeing it in the upper Fuerte river.
Sorry for the long rambling post (not really heheh)
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose, I can be there in 24 hours... you can take me out blind folded.... can I take pics of the cave?
Anything that goes into my docu, will not have directions to the place, unless its already known, to many idjits out there.
Giants... you have my undivided attention..
I read about a petroglphs somewhere I think its mid America, its of a truly giant bird, called by locals as a 'thunderbird' because of the noise it made and that sometimes it preceded the coming storm. Until at least 8000 bc there were mega fauna and in AZ they have found giant animals right here in in Phx.
I can't swear to where it is or who wrote about it, but I think at one time Powell was taken to the side of the cliff where it was high on the side of the mountain.
I don't buy that this is a product of the Harvey House marketing, too many ancient stories and primal fear of what is above.
Maybe that was the ancients UFO?
Janiece
Anything that goes into my docu, will not have directions to the place, unless its already known, to many idjits out there.
Giants... you have my undivided attention..
I read about a petroglphs somewhere I think its mid America, its of a truly giant bird, called by locals as a 'thunderbird' because of the noise it made and that sometimes it preceded the coming storm. Until at least 8000 bc there were mega fauna and in AZ they have found giant animals right here in in Phx.
I can't swear to where it is or who wrote about it, but I think at one time Powell was taken to the side of the cliff where it was high on the side of the mountain.
I don't buy that this is a product of the Harvey House marketing, too many ancient stories and primal fear of what is above.
Maybe that was the ancients UFO?
Janiece
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy,
"I respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it is obvious that my "un-qualified opinion" carries no weight with you."
_____________________________________________________________________________
Not true at all! Your opinion carries just about as much weight, with me, as my own opinion. I constantly question all opinions, which includes my own. It's a long standing habit, which has earned me the ill feelings of many acquaintances. Some people take it personally, but I am only attempting to find the historical truth. It is often difficult. There is no personal animosity involved, though admittedly some feelings get hurt in the process.
Theories were offered by SH and yourself, as to what he found on a rock wall in the Superstitions, or at least I believe it was in the Superstitions. Your theory was that it might be a Thunderbird, for which you offered a picture to bolster the possibility. Having done research on the Thunderbird, and posted my comments on the LDM Forum some time ago, I knew that a Thunderbird was unlikely. That is the comment I offered, using a poor memory as my only source.
The following comments are direct quotes from an article written by Paula Baxter, and are from the topic:
Commercialization and its Consequences.
[The Southwest is a region destined to draw visitors--and they came for the varied and dramatic physical environment, its natural resources, and the tricultural society (Native American, Hispanic, Anglo-American). The rich regional context of the Southwest could readily be seen in local jewellery production. Travellers and tourists acquired Indianmade jewellery for its unique value as souvenirs, and collectables, and, in time, as chic accessories. Jewellery-making and selling provided local peoples with an economic anchor. While historical and popular writings touch on this factor, the marketdriven impact of the tourist industry is still treated inconclusively.
Even today, the tourist market comprises the major volume of goods on offer at any time. Demand for tourist goods started in the late nineteenth century and proved vital to the region's native and non-Indian economies. The tastes of these new consumers would change the course of indigenous jewellery design and production, in both direct and indirect ways. Anglo tourists in the 1920s and 1930s influenced Navajo smiths to produce pieces in the Zuni style, utilizing more (and smaller) stonework in the overall design process. Indian craftsmen located closer to tourist stops were more receptive to the adoption, or adaptation, of new outsider-inspired styles.
There was tremendous economic pressure placed on the Native American to make his or her jewellery fit tourists' preconceptions. This tendency allowed the makers to put little emotional investment in their work. As a result, tourist jewellery was ripe for excess, fakery, and lowered quality. In common with other decorative arts made for the tourist market, jewellery pieces were made smaller, with cheap materials and little attention to the effectiveness of the item's design. Consumers accepted them as 'bona fide' expressions of Indian craftsmanship, planting an ongoing misunderstanding about Indian jewellery as a whole. Rings and bracelets were the most popular items because of their portable nature. Until the coming of Euro-American purveyors and consumers, native jewellery-makers did not feel it necessary to sign their works. Since the promotion of the individual artist or artisan is a major Euro-American predilection, traders and dealers were soon calling for Indian usage of makermarks. However, hallmarks on silverwork did not become common until the 1970s. While tourist demand was an initial motivation for this development, the naming of Indian jewellery-makers drew attention to the regional ethnic art market.
It was an obvious step from the establishment of this market to the promotion of Indian jewellery as collectable artefacts. These items were varied and affordable, and they allowed their owners to enjoy an alien culture's bold and exotically appealing ornamentation. While much collecting was done by non-Indians living in the Southwest, buyers from other parts of the United States, Europe, and Asia joined in the activity. Collecting emphases ranged from serious individuals willing to invest much time, money, and effort into acquiring specific types of jewellery (such as pre-1900 Navajo silver goods) to those fascinated with the idea of buying differently styled contemporary pieces to wear. Even tourist jewellery itself became popular with collectors: the jewellery produced for and sold by the Fred Harvey Company (most active between 1890 and 1930) has a dedicated following. The extremely fanciful, and often derivative, nature of Harvey House pieces served as a stereotyped model for the worst excesses of Euro-American-encouraged design. The best preserved and most numerous examples are highly decorative, stamped bracelets, rings, kachina pins, and the ubiquitous thunderbird (which was a Harvey Company design motif in itself). An illustration of early to mid-twentieth-century tourist goods reveals the deliberate use of motifs that originated in Euro-American minds.]
_____________________________________________________________________________
I considered using only the small portion which concerned the Thunderbird motif, and the Harvey Co., but decided the additional information gave a better perspective of what took place.
Ms. Baxter provides numerous sources for her information, and I will provide all of those used for this section, if requested.
I will go back and highlight the portions of my original post which may have been overlooked.
Take care,
Joe
"I respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it is obvious that my "un-qualified opinion" carries no weight with you."
_____________________________________________________________________________
Not true at all! Your opinion carries just about as much weight, with me, as my own opinion. I constantly question all opinions, which includes my own. It's a long standing habit, which has earned me the ill feelings of many acquaintances. Some people take it personally, but I am only attempting to find the historical truth. It is often difficult. There is no personal animosity involved, though admittedly some feelings get hurt in the process.
Theories were offered by SH and yourself, as to what he found on a rock wall in the Superstitions, or at least I believe it was in the Superstitions. Your theory was that it might be a Thunderbird, for which you offered a picture to bolster the possibility. Having done research on the Thunderbird, and posted my comments on the LDM Forum some time ago, I knew that a Thunderbird was unlikely. That is the comment I offered, using a poor memory as my only source.
The following comments are direct quotes from an article written by Paula Baxter, and are from the topic:
Commercialization and its Consequences.
[The Southwest is a region destined to draw visitors--and they came for the varied and dramatic physical environment, its natural resources, and the tricultural society (Native American, Hispanic, Anglo-American). The rich regional context of the Southwest could readily be seen in local jewellery production. Travellers and tourists acquired Indianmade jewellery for its unique value as souvenirs, and collectables, and, in time, as chic accessories. Jewellery-making and selling provided local peoples with an economic anchor. While historical and popular writings touch on this factor, the marketdriven impact of the tourist industry is still treated inconclusively.
Even today, the tourist market comprises the major volume of goods on offer at any time. Demand for tourist goods started in the late nineteenth century and proved vital to the region's native and non-Indian economies. The tastes of these new consumers would change the course of indigenous jewellery design and production, in both direct and indirect ways. Anglo tourists in the 1920s and 1930s influenced Navajo smiths to produce pieces in the Zuni style, utilizing more (and smaller) stonework in the overall design process. Indian craftsmen located closer to tourist stops were more receptive to the adoption, or adaptation, of new outsider-inspired styles.
There was tremendous economic pressure placed on the Native American to make his or her jewellery fit tourists' preconceptions. This tendency allowed the makers to put little emotional investment in their work. As a result, tourist jewellery was ripe for excess, fakery, and lowered quality. In common with other decorative arts made for the tourist market, jewellery pieces were made smaller, with cheap materials and little attention to the effectiveness of the item's design. Consumers accepted them as 'bona fide' expressions of Indian craftsmanship, planting an ongoing misunderstanding about Indian jewellery as a whole. Rings and bracelets were the most popular items because of their portable nature. Until the coming of Euro-American purveyors and consumers, native jewellery-makers did not feel it necessary to sign their works. Since the promotion of the individual artist or artisan is a major Euro-American predilection, traders and dealers were soon calling for Indian usage of makermarks. However, hallmarks on silverwork did not become common until the 1970s. While tourist demand was an initial motivation for this development, the naming of Indian jewellery-makers drew attention to the regional ethnic art market.
It was an obvious step from the establishment of this market to the promotion of Indian jewellery as collectable artefacts. These items were varied and affordable, and they allowed their owners to enjoy an alien culture's bold and exotically appealing ornamentation. While much collecting was done by non-Indians living in the Southwest, buyers from other parts of the United States, Europe, and Asia joined in the activity. Collecting emphases ranged from serious individuals willing to invest much time, money, and effort into acquiring specific types of jewellery (such as pre-1900 Navajo silver goods) to those fascinated with the idea of buying differently styled contemporary pieces to wear. Even tourist jewellery itself became popular with collectors: the jewellery produced for and sold by the Fred Harvey Company (most active between 1890 and 1930) has a dedicated following. The extremely fanciful, and often derivative, nature of Harvey House pieces served as a stereotyped model for the worst excesses of Euro-American-encouraged design. The best preserved and most numerous examples are highly decorative, stamped bracelets, rings, kachina pins, and the ubiquitous thunderbird (which was a Harvey Company design motif in itself). An illustration of early to mid-twentieth-century tourist goods reveals the deliberate use of motifs that originated in Euro-American minds.]
_____________________________________________________________________________
I considered using only the small portion which concerned the Thunderbird motif, and the Harvey Co., but decided the additional information gave a better perspective of what took place.
Ms. Baxter provides numerous sources for her information, and I will provide all of those used for this section, if requested.
I will go back and highlight the portions of my original post which may have been overlooked.
Take care,
Joe
This is a wonderful link
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/09/19/1221331206960.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml
If you can go watch the video, I can't seem to get it to work, but I think I've seen it before.
Janiece
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/09/19/1221331206960.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml
If you can go watch the video, I can't seem to get it to work, but I think I've seen it before.
Janiece
cactusjumper
Gold Member
All,
As with everything, even the best of sources can be mistaken. While I have a hard time figuring out why the source I provided would have made up such a story.......it's always possible they were simply mistaken.
Since I am no expert on the subject, I can only go with the sources I can find. If someone has something better, I am open to hearing about it. I have other (professional) sources I could ask, but believe I'll let this one die. It seems others may have stronger opinions on this than I have.
Take care,
Joe
As with everything, even the best of sources can be mistaken. While I have a hard time figuring out why the source I provided would have made up such a story.......it's always possible they were simply mistaken.
Since I am no expert on the subject, I can only go with the sources I can find. If someone has something better, I am open to hearing about it. I have other (professional) sources I could ask, but believe I'll let this one die. It seems others may have stronger opinions on this than I have.
Take care,
Joe
somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
- 4,365
- 6,434
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Joe:
"Theories were offered by SH and yourself, as to what he found on a rock wall in the Superstitions, or at least I believe it was in the Superstitions."
You can put your money on that...and pull a row of $$$$.
I think that what some are failing to do here,is to apply a method called "critical comparison".After first making a list of the various features of an object and details of it's surroundings/setting/location,one can then begin a process of elimination by comparison of those same features,etc,with other similar objects of known origin.
A list of features for this object might include:
-size...25 to 30 ft high
-proportional...head slightly prominent but lower body obscured/missing.
-pose...facing to the right with head aligned to body.
-head...well proportioned with open mouth...elongated and tapering to top with circular adornment apparent...adornment has markings
-eye...yes...location fits image well
-other visible markings on head...two vertical rows of dots or lines,one curved and one straight.Rounded teeth apparent in mouth.Jaws are in alignment.
-neck...medium length and possibly depicted as S-shaped.
-appendages...forward extended arms/wings with splayed feathers in downward direction.No legs apparent.Possible tail behind torso.
--other...a mound of circular objects,of similar size and in common contact,below outstretched arms.A oval object behind figure at upper face of boulder that appears to be composed of a radial design and same color and shade as the main object.
Even without comparing location or setting it is easy to eliminate Thunderbird as what this represents.The artistic style alone is completely different and enough to narrow the range of possibilities.
Here is an example to illustrate what I am talking about.
This was a mayan artist's depiction of a feathered headress on a seated figure and painted on the back wall of an alcove.Late Classic era 593-889 CE.
Regards:SH.
"Theories were offered by SH and yourself, as to what he found on a rock wall in the Superstitions, or at least I believe it was in the Superstitions."
You can put your money on that...and pull a row of $$$$.
I think that what some are failing to do here,is to apply a method called "critical comparison".After first making a list of the various features of an object and details of it's surroundings/setting/location,one can then begin a process of elimination by comparison of those same features,etc,with other similar objects of known origin.
A list of features for this object might include:
-size...25 to 30 ft high
-proportional...head slightly prominent but lower body obscured/missing.
-pose...facing to the right with head aligned to body.
-head...well proportioned with open mouth...elongated and tapering to top with circular adornment apparent...adornment has markings
-eye...yes...location fits image well
-other visible markings on head...two vertical rows of dots or lines,one curved and one straight.Rounded teeth apparent in mouth.Jaws are in alignment.
-neck...medium length and possibly depicted as S-shaped.
-appendages...forward extended arms/wings with splayed feathers in downward direction.No legs apparent.Possible tail behind torso.
--other...a mound of circular objects,of similar size and in common contact,below outstretched arms.A oval object behind figure at upper face of boulder that appears to be composed of a radial design and same color and shade as the main object.
Even without comparing location or setting it is easy to eliminate Thunderbird as what this represents.The artistic style alone is completely different and enough to narrow the range of possibilities.
Here is an example to illustrate what I am talking about.
This was a mayan artist's depiction of a feathered headress on a seated figure and painted on the back wall of an alcove.Late Classic era 593-889 CE.
Regards:SH.
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Cubfan64
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Since I have no experience in identifying petroglyphs or any other sort of "paintings" on rocks, how would one go about determining that what you found SH is indeed a rock painting?
For example, I visited Heiroglyphic Canyon this past spring, and it was very evident that those are rock paintings. Many are still fully visible and the scale is such that being up close to them they don't lose their features and can still be easily identified.
I believe that if you are correct that what you found is ~25-30' tall, one would lose a great deal of perspective as you get close to it - in fact if you didn't know it was there, I wonder if it would even stick out if you walked directly past it?
I have to ask this question, well.... because I'm a scientist
.... but can I assume that an elemental analysis of various tiny scrapings from what you believe to be ancient "paint" (for lack of a better word) compared with analysis of the surrounding rock would be one of the main ways to identify that it contains different pigments and possible metals which might be what is giving it color?
Not being an archaeologist, it seems like this would be the scientific way to do it - but I have a feeling it would be very frowned upon to take even the smallest physical samples no?
Are there other ways to determine whether what we are seeing is just some freak natural occurance or man made?
For example, I visited Heiroglyphic Canyon this past spring, and it was very evident that those are rock paintings. Many are still fully visible and the scale is such that being up close to them they don't lose their features and can still be easily identified.
I believe that if you are correct that what you found is ~25-30' tall, one would lose a great deal of perspective as you get close to it - in fact if you didn't know it was there, I wonder if it would even stick out if you walked directly past it?
I have to ask this question, well.... because I'm a scientist
.... but can I assume that an elemental analysis of various tiny scrapings from what you believe to be ancient "paint" (for lack of a better word) compared with analysis of the surrounding rock would be one of the main ways to identify that it contains different pigments and possible metals which might be what is giving it color?Not being an archaeologist, it seems like this would be the scientific way to do it - but I have a feeling it would be very frowned upon to take even the smallest physical samples no?
Are there other ways to determine whether what we are seeing is just some freak natural occurance or man made?
Oroblanco
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Furness - YES I think it is quite possible. I believe that all "thunderbirds" were in fact real animals, just being large birds not mythical, magical critters.
Joe - I am not offended if my opinion carries little or no weight, after all some folks say that I am a born liar!
My view on this is that while the Thunderbird symbol is of recent import in Southwestern JEWELRY, it has a long tradition among Southwestern tribes, being most likely some species of giant bird that once existed in most of America.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Joe - I am not offended if my opinion carries little or no weight, after all some folks say that I am a born liar!
My view on this is that while the Thunderbird symbol is of recent import in Southwestern JEWELRY, it has a long tradition among Southwestern tribes, being most likely some species of giant bird that once existed in most of America.Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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