The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...

[azdave35]

People's "opinions" never determine the truthfulness of any idea.

You are right, there have been more than a few other doozies posted.
But I like to think that Dave knows better, some others perhaps not.

earnie...maybe you live in a different part of the country than me....but here in arizona we have a mixture of every race you can think of...kind of a melting pot i guess you could call it....and 10 years ago you never heard the words racist or racism ...we all lived in the same neighborhoods and got along fine for the most part....there are sh*theads in every race that make the others looks bad but its usually a small percentage...i was born around the chicago area in the ghetto in a neighborhood of mostly blacks...we all hung around and played together and there was never any race barriers...once in a while we'd have problems but it was settled with a friendly fight and never had anything to do with race....after that we moved to arkansas and there was not much problem there until the government got involved and started turning everyone against each other...when i got here i was surprised to see how well everyone got along..until our current leader got elected....in the past 8 years he has destroyed 100 years of progress..you are definitely entitled to your opinion but i dont think you will get far on this forum trying to blame everything on whitey and label us all as racist.....IMO racism would all but disappear if people would turn the tv off quit reading the newspaper

 

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[Old]

Earnie,

Everyone's experience is different. Where I live and where 'some' of my family has lived for literally thousands of years may (or may not) be unique. Some of my family are new comers, only arriving 400 years ago <g>. We are a rural area nestled in the birth place of America which is also the place of some of the earliest records of slavery, broken treaties, and brutal attacks from all sides.

Yet; we are a community of one people made up of three colors, and have been so for a long time.

We learned long ago nobody was coming to rescue us. We learned anybody coming to 'help' was coming to help themselves. We learned we had to stick together side by side or die. I could tell you the absolute horrors of the real life effects of reconstruction, freeman bureau policies, fraud, thief, and don't even get me started on the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

There is, and has been for a long time, real love and respect among people in our area. Outside influences have always, and still do, stir the flames of discontent.

We are the place, the culture, and the united people that defied whatever classification and restrictions outside influences wanted to saddle us with. Instead we, together, brought you a land and rule of law based on the premise that all men ARE created equal. We weren't kidding. We are the place that give the country the first elected Black sheriff, the first elected County government lead by people of color, several colors; Brown vs. the board of Education, and, not so long ago, gave the world the example of Douglas Wilder, himself a grandson of a slave, first Black governor of any state.....north or south. Doug is my neighbor and a finer, fairer man doesn't exist.

So, I bristle a bit when folks talk about a country rife with White privilege, systemic racism, and inherent bias. Come on to my hood. I'll show you what total cooperation and mutual respect working for a common goal looks like. Its far more common than MSNBC wants you to believe.

 

[EarnieP]

Won't get into too deep a 'discussion' on this off-treasure topic, as I'm sure the moderators wouldn't care much for it.
However, for someone to state that there was no racism in the US until the media recently "forced it down our throats" or that our current President is somehow to blame for the problem, is to completely ignore our history (not good for this site).
I'm a child of the sixties, we had plenty of such problems back when there were only three network news channels on TV, and long before the current Administration was made the convenient scapegoat for every problem in America.

I've said before; "Posted comments tell us more about the posters themselves than they do about any treasures under discussion."
This last foray outside the subject of treasures has certainly been a disappointment in that regard.

Best,
EarnieP

 

[azdave35]

Won't get into too deep a 'discussion' on this off-treasure topic, as I'm sure the moderators wouldn't care much for it.
However, for someone to state that there was no racism in the US until the media recently "forced it down our throats" or that our current President is somehow to blame for the problem, is to completely ignore our history (not good for this site).
I'm a child of the sixties, we had plenty of such problems back when there were only three network news channels on TV, and long before the current Administration was made the convenient scapegoat for every problem in America.

I've said before; "Posted comments tell us more about the posters themselves than they do about any treasures under discussion."
This last foray outside the subject of treasures has certainly been a disappointment in that regard.

Best,
EarnieP

you are correct when you say "Posted comments tell us more about the posters themselves than they do about any treasures under discussion."

 

[deducer]

you are correct when you say "Posted comments tell us more about the posters themselves than they do about any treasures under discussion."

Dave, you seem like a nice fella, and I enjoy reading your insightful posts.

How about we stay away from politics? This kind of thing never ends well and you will not change anyone's mind.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, you seem like a nice fella, and I enjoy reading your insightful posts.

How about we stay away from politics? This kind of thing never ends well and you will not change anyone's mind.

sorry...lol..sometimes i get a little carried away

 

[Old]

Deducer,

I don't disagree with your conclusion. I Do I however find your timing a bit odd as well as the low threshold of a trigger.

This thread has been politically loaded and off topic since day one. It contains the number 1, hands down, winner of a series of post containing personal, bitter attacks against a member that I have seen in my entire time visiting here. Not once has there been an iota of a hint of monitor attention.

And NOW there's concern??

 

[EarnieP]

Here's a different subject that maybe you hunters and wilderness travelers can help answer for me.

The last week of Oct, I took a little solo camping trip up into the mountains of NM, just over the State line from Az., about 25 miles up the mountain from Reserve, NM. Camped next to Negrito Creek for those who know the area.

A couple of hours after sunset I was sleeping peacefully in my homemade 'Gypsy Wagon' (I was tired and hit the hay early). Which is a simple camper shell raised up with a two foot extension, covered with plywood and a thin skin of aluminum diamond plate.
It was a cold, three blanket, night even though the 'Wagon' is insulated. But I was sleeping comfortably when about 10 to 20 feet (guess) from the open window by my head 'something' started giving out a very LOUD cry/howl/mourn/growl!
Woke me right UP!

It started out (LOUD!) like a bugle kind of sound, as from an elk. Went into kind of a very mournful wail. And ended in a vicious kind of snarling growl. This was immediately followed by another shorter repetition of the same sound. Never heard it again. I have never heard an animal make any sound like this before.
Actually raised the hairs on the back of my neck.
I'm not Geronimo (or even a member of his tribe, Injun.) but I don't spook all that easily. People have asked me before "Aren't you scared to go camping alone?" Ive always said "Why, I'm the scariest thing up there."
Now I'm thinking I may be wrong about that!


I thought at first it sounded like a person with an elk bugle. Someone trying to play a joke on me (hilarious), but there were no other campers within miles of me that I saw coming in or the next day. Nobody was near me that I knew of.
It was elk season, and I had seen some hunters having their kill processed in Reserve but did not see any hunters on the mountain. By the way, the State of NM has apparently run out of money and does not maintain the road up the mountain any longer, it's in terrible shape. I thought (later)maybe it was a wounded elk that had been shot, or even an elk calf who had lost it's mother to hunters (might explain the mournful part of the wail).

I thought, Bear? No.
Coyote? No, don't think so.
Steer? Didn't see any coming up like I usually do. Don't know when the ranchers move their stock down the mountain. The 'vicious growl' part probably makes that unlikely.
Wolf? Possible, they have been reintroduced nearby, but the sound was unlike any wolf Ive heard.
Cougar? Ah, maybe.
Sasquatch? hmmmm?

I could not see much by shining my flashlight out the window, and no I did NOT go outside to confront whatever it was!(I was in my underwear and it was cold, nothing more, really
I did reach over to make sure my 9mm was handy (wondered if 15 shots would be enough?) And I did quickly shut that open window by my head!

I laid there for a few minutes wishing I had put stronger latches and locks on those back doors. (can Bigfoot open doors?)
Then I drifted off to sleep figuring the noise of 'whatever-it-was' breaking in would surely wake me up.
In the morning, I saw no tracks of any of the afore mentioned suspects, and no blood from a wounded animal.
The ice chest on the ground behind the Gypsy Wagon was undisturbed. And it contained a recently cooked steak from the campfire of the evening before. Even though wrapped in tin foil, I'm thinking a hungry bear would have sniffed it out and ripped into that chest.

Coming down the mountain I saw no other people for miles. Saw no steer, saw no elk (which is unusual, but maybe hunters (or 'something') had scared them away from the road. Eventually made it home and searched Youtube for any hints of what might make a similar sound/cry. Even searched the great apes noises, nope not even close.

The closest thing I found on Youtube that made even a remotely similar sound, believe it or not, was some kind of wild rooster cry.

Any ideas what it might have been?
(Remember, this was before the election, so no it wasn't the mournful sound of a Liberal learning about the results of the election...

 

[azdave35]

Here's a different subject that maybe you hunters and wilderness travelers can help answer for me.

The last week of Oct, I took a little solo camping trip up into the mountains of NM, just over the State line from Az., about 25 miles up the mountain from Reserve, NM. Camped next to Negrito Creek for those who know the area.

A couple of hours after sunset I was sleeping peacefully in my homemade 'Gypsy Wagon' (I was tired and hit the hay early). Which is a simple camper shell raised up with a two foot extension, covered with plywood and a thin skin of aluminum diamond plate.
It was a cold, three blanket, night even though the 'Wagon' is insulated. But I was sleeping comfortably when about 10 to 20 feet (guess) from the open window by my head 'something' started giving out a very LOUD cry/howl/mourn/growl!
Woke me right UP!

It started out (LOUD!) like a bugle kind of sound, as from an elk. Went into kind of a very mournful wail. And ended in a vicious kind of snarling growl. This was immediately followed by another shorter repetition of the same sound. Never heard it again. I have never heard an animal make any sound like this before.
Actually raised the hairs on the back of my neck.
I'm not Geronimo (or even a member of his tribe, Injun.) but I don't spook all that easily. People have asked me before "Aren't you scared to go camping alone?" Ive always said "Why, I'm the scariest thing up there."
Now I'm thinking I may be wrong about that!


I thought at first it sounded like a person with an elk bugle. Someone trying to play a joke on me (hilarious), but there were no other campers within miles of me that I saw coming in or the next day. Nobody was near me that I knew of.
It was elk season, and I had seen some hunters having their kill processed in Reserve but did not see any hunters on the mountain. By the way, the State of NM has apparently run out of money and does not maintain the road up the mountain any longer, it's in terrible shape. I thought maybe it's a wounded elk that had been shot, or even an elk calf who had lost it's mother to hunters (might explain the mournful part of the wail).

I thought, Bear? No.
Coyote? No, don't think so.
Steer? Didn't see any coming up like I usually do. Don't know when the ranchers move their stock down the mountain. The 'vicious growl' part probably makes that unlikely.
Wolf? Possible, they have been reintroduced nearby, but the sound was unlike any wolf Ive heard.
Cougar? Ah, maybe.
Sasquatch? hmmmm?

I could not see much by shining my flashlight out the window, and no I did NOT go outside to confront whatever it was!(I was in my underwear and it was cold, nothing more, really
I did reach over to make sure my 9mm was handy (wondered if 15 shots would be enough?) And I did quickly shut that open window by my head!

I laid there for a few minutes wishing I had put stronger latches and locks on those back doors. (can Bigfoot open doors?)
Then I drifted off to sleep figuring the noise of 'whatever-it-was' breaking in would surely wake me up.
In the morning, I saw no tracks of any of the affore mentioned suspects, and no blood from a wounded animal.
The ice chest on the ground behind the Gypsy Wagon was undisturbed. And it contained a recently cooked steak from the campfire of the evening before. Even though wrapped in tin foil, I'm thinking a hungry bear would have sniffed it out and ripped into that chest.

Coming down the mountain I saw no other people for miles. Saw no steer, saw no elk (which is unusual, but maybe hunters (or 'something') had scared them away from the road. Eventually made it home and searched Youtube for any hints of what might make a similar sound/cry. Even searched the great apes noises, nope not even close.

The closest thing I found on Youtube that made even a remotely similar sound, believe it or not, was some kind of wild rooster cry.

Any ideas what it might have been?

(Remember, this was before the election, so no it wasn't the mournful sound of a Liberal learning about the results of the election

sasquatch

 

[Old]

Earnie, here's a couple places with elk and fox vocalizations. You might find a match.

Don't laugh at me mentioning fox. They make an amazing amount of different sounding barks, yips and growls.

Elk Recordings: Listen to Real Elk Sounds, So You Can Recognize and Replicate Th

Sounds of the Fox

 

[EarnieP]

Hi Old, Believe me, I'm not laughing.
I did review fox sounds when I got back. They do make some strange noises.
Whatever this was gave me the impression that it was something LARGE.
I'm very familiar with elk calls, this wasn't like any I'd ever heard.

Thanks for posting the sites, appreciate it.

[Edit]

I'm usually pretty good at imitating sounds and people. But this call is something that I can not duplicate very accurately so it's hard to convey the exact 'feel' of it even when telling the story in person.

Don't know if I could have thought fast enough to capture it on a recorder, but I have been looking at some digital and even old school cassette recorders, and will have one with me from now on. Not a phone guy.

 

[Old]

Here's a bob cat growl that I've not heard before. This would freak me out. Big time!

I've heard them scream but not growl like this. This is spooky.

Bobcat Sounds | PoC

 

[EarnieP]

Here's a bob cat growl that I've not heard before. This would freak me out. Big time!

I've heard them scream but not growl like this. This is spooky.

Bobcat Sounds | PoC

Hey, now your getting closer Old. Sounds kind of similar to the end of the call I heard.
Maybe it was Bobcat!
Thanks!

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Hope all is well with you and Beth.

Very good post, except for the portion I highlighted. I believe it is still being taught that to take a defensive position, even a machine gun emplacement, you mass your troops and all stand and fire on full automatic, while advancing straight into the enemies fire. That's what they taught us during the Viet Nam War. It's not a lesson I bought into.

Anyone out there have another opinion to the Superior Firepower theory?

Take care,

Joe

Well you are talking about a strong point defense, which is not the same as having massed lines of infantry charging across open fields into machine guns, as was practiced in the European method right up into WW1. The Army teaches the same strategy as you describe (strong points, mass for defense) but only when a line of individual foxholes etc can not be safely held. A funny thing is that the archaeologists studying the Custer battlefield, wrote that when they found groups of dead soldiers, that was "fatal bunching" and they felt that was entirely due to fear, panic, and cowardice! Ha! Clearly those archies had never served in any combat unit nor studied combat or they would have known that was and remains the best defense when outnumbered and unable to maneuver.

Old - you have brought this up repeatedly, about how "someone" was so "viciously attacked" here on the forum. I presume you are talking about a member who left? What exactly are these horrific verbal attacks? Not trying to be cute, I really must have missed that discussion and would appreciate if you could point me to where these verbal assaults took place? Thanks in advance;

One aspect I have not yet seen mentioned here, since this thread is about the Apache of the southwest, are the many Apaches that voluntarily "joined" with the Spanish or Mexicans, settling at various towns such as at Tucson. One estimate had the majority of the population of the town as "peaceful" Apaches, as late as the early 1800s. Clearly this history is far more complex than is capable of being covered in a single history book, and as was pointed out, the Army made use of Apache scouts to hunt other Apaches. But when someone says "Apache" do we think of a large settlement of peaceful Indians, farming and living in a town as happened at Tucson?

Thanks in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Azquester]

Here's a different subject that maybe you hunters and wilderness travelers can help answer for me.

The last week of Oct, I took a little solo camping trip up into the mountains of NM, just over the State line from Az., about 25 miles up the mountain from Reserve, NM. Camped next to Negrito Creek for those who know the area.

A couple of hours after sunset I was sleeping peacefully in my homemade 'Gypsy Wagon' (I was tired and hit the hay early). Which is a simple camper shell raised up with a two foot extension, covered with plywood and a thin skin of aluminum diamond plate.
It was a cold, three blanket, night even though the 'Wagon' is insulated. But I was sleeping comfortably when about 10 to 20 feet (guess) from the open window by my head 'something' started giving out a very LOUD cry/howl/mourn/growl!
Woke me right UP!

It started out (LOUD!) like a bugle kind of sound, as from an elk. Went into kind of a very mournful wail. And ended in a vicious kind of snarling growl. This was immediately followed by another shorter repetition of the same sound. Never heard it again. I have never heard an animal make any sound like this before.
Actually raised the hairs on the back of my neck.
I'm not Geronimo (or even a member of his tribe, Injun.) but I don't spook all that easily. People have asked me before "Aren't you scared to go camping alone?" Ive always said "Why, I'm the scariest thing up there."
Now I'm thinking I may be wrong about that!


I thought at first it sounded like a person with an elk bugle. Someone trying to play a joke on me (hilarious), but there were no other campers within miles of me that I saw coming in or the next day. Nobody was near me that I knew of.
It was elk season, and I had seen some hunters having their kill processed in Reserve but did not see any hunters on the mountain. By the way, the State of NM has apparently run out of money and does not maintain the road up the mountain any longer, it's in terrible shape. I thought (later)maybe it was a wounded elk that had been shot, or even an elk calf who had lost it's mother to hunters (might explain the mournful part of the wail).

I thought, Bear? No.
Coyote? No, don't think so.
Steer? Didn't see any coming up like I usually do. Don't know when the ranchers move their stock down the mountain. The 'vicious growl' part probably makes that unlikely.
Wolf? Possible, they have been reintroduced nearby, but the sound was unlike any wolf Ive heard.
Cougar? Ah, maybe.
Sasquatch? hmmmm?

I could not see much by shining my flashlight out the window, and no I did NOT go outside to confront whatever it was!(I was in my underwear and it was cold, nothing more, really
I did reach over to make sure my 9mm was handy (wondered if 15 shots would be enough?) And I did quickly shut that open window by my head!

I laid there for a few minutes wishing I had put stronger latches and locks on those back doors. (can Bigfoot open doors?)
Then I drifted off to sleep figuring the noise of 'whatever-it-was' breaking in would surely wake me up.
In the morning, I saw no tracks of any of the afore mentioned suspects, and no blood from a wounded animal.
The ice chest on the ground behind the Gypsy Wagon was undisturbed. And it contained a recently cooked steak from the campfire of the evening before. Even though wrapped in tin foil, I'm thinking a hungry bear would have sniffed it out and ripped into that chest.

Coming down the mountain I saw no other people for miles. Saw no steer, saw no elk (which is unusual, but maybe hunters (or 'something') had scared them away from the road. Eventually made it home and searched Youtube for any hints of what might make a similar sound/cry. Even searched the great apes noises, nope not even close.

The closest thing I found on Youtube that made even a remotely similar sound, believe it or not, was some kind of wild rooster cry.

Any ideas what it might have been?
(Remember, this was before the election, so no it wasn't the mournful sound of a Liberal learning about the results of the election...

Ernie, You were just a few miles from my cabin in Alpine. Next time let me know and I'll meet you up there so you can camp in style.
Probably sasquatch but Bigfoot makes a sound like a Bobcat screaming them a long low pitched moan-howl with a snarl at the end.
My Daughter heard what she thought was a bear growling at my cabin which turned out to be an Elk. If it was Sasquatch you would've smelled it badly. Feces, Body odor, Rotten Flesh, rotten blood and a Skunk smell best describes Bigfoot. Kind of like Oro in the morning passing gas before he's had his coffee.

 

[Old]

OMG...........perhaps a re-read of the early post in this thread might be in order. Or; maybe not and better left in peace. Those parties have established a semi cease fire although no apology from the offender has been forthcoming. Perhaps privately. I certainly hope so. That WAS vicious.

PS: Clue: Last I knew, Ryan was/is not married and didn't have a mule. Do you guys really think I'm nothing but a hall monitor on one person's behalf? My comments are about glaring hypocrisy and not some secret agenda that seems to intrigue some. Geez......

 

[Old]

By all means.........lets leave this discussion of politics aside and get back to discussion of Manifest Destiny, poster's religion or lack thereof, and inter-family marriages. Don't want to tread on anything that might be controversial.......<g>

I am aware of the notification button. I put it in the same category with "safe places". I'm a free speech kinda person. I read it, if it offends me I either mention it, counter it, or ignore it.

 

[sdcfia]

OMG...........perhaps a re-read of the early post in this thread might be in order. Or; maybe not and better left in peace. Those parties have established a semi cease fire although no apology from the offender has been forthcoming. Perhaps privately. I certainly hope so. That WAS vicious.

PS: Clue: Last I knew, Ryan was/is not married and didn't have a mule. Do you guys really think I'm nothing but a hall monitor on one person's behalf? My comments are about glaring hypocrisy and not some secret agenda that seems to intrigue some. Geez......

Can't have any fake news around here.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Usual excellent post ORO

 

[Real of Tayopa]

can I be ORO's second Bill ?