lol...that don't sound like much fun...unless its happening to a politician
The Apache of the Southwest of the States and northern Mexico...
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lol...that don't sound like much fun...unless its happening to a politician
Oroblanco
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Interesting discussion. A study of general Miles campaign which successfully ended the Apache wars (for good) by an endless 'hunt' of the hostiles rather than any large victory/battle is enlightening, and was in effect what also ended the plains Indian wars. Savagery was practiced by both sides. As how this relates to the Superstition mountains, really have to agree with Cactusjumper, the only part of the range used (long term, as in living there) was in the very eastern part of the range; the central and western parts were only used sporadically and apparently only for hunting and raiding/ambushes etc. The fact that at least two massacres of Apaches occurred in the Superstitions including at Skeleton Cave and Apache Leap, would confirm their own superstition against this mountain range for being 'bad mojo'. At least bad mojo for Apaches, that is.
I do think that one quote is slightly mis-worded, if memory serves it is
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt." <Socrates?>
With that in mind, I will return to silent mode.
I do think that one quote is slightly mis-worded, if memory serves it is
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt." <Socrates?>
With that in mind, I will return to silent mode.
Interesting discussion. A study of general Miles campaign which successfully ended the Apache wars (for good) by an endless 'hunt' of the hostiles rather than any large victory/battle is enlightening, and was in effect what also ended the plains Indian wars. Savagery was practiced by both sides. As how this relates to the Superstition mountains, really have to agree with Cactusjumper, the only part of the range used (long term, as in living there) was in the very eastern part of the range; the central and western parts were only used sporadically and apparently only for hunting and raiding/ambushes etc. The fact that at least two massacres of Apaches occurred in the Superstitions including at Skeleton Cave and Apache Leap, would confirm their own superstition against this mountain range for being 'bad mojo'. At least bad mojo for Apaches, that is.
I do think that one quote is slightly mis-worded, if memory serves it is
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt." <Socrates?>
With that in mind, I will return to silent mode.
the superstitions are a very rugged range...if i were an indian back then i would not have ventured into the superstitions...no need to...there is plenty of game and water around the outer edges of the mountains
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Interesting discussion. A study of general Miles campaign which successfully ended the Apache wars (for good) by an endless 'hunt' of the hostiles rather than any large victory/battle is enlightening, and was in effect what also ended the plains Indian wars. Savagery was practiced by both sides. As how this relates to the Superstition mountains, really have to agree with Cactusjumper, the only part of the range used (long term, as in living there) was in the very eastern part of the range; the central and western parts were only used sporadically and apparently only for hunting and raiding/ambushes etc. The fact that at least two massacres of Apaches occurred in the Superstitions including at Skeleton Cave and Apache Leap, would confirm their own superstition against this mountain range for being 'bad mojo'. At least bad mojo for Apaches, that is.
I do think that one quote is slightly mis-worded, if memory serves it is
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt." <Socrates?>
With that in mind, I will return to silent mode.
Roy,
Both of your examples had the Indians running or hiding......Not living at either place. Skull cave had nothing to do with the Apache, other than the army being led there by an Apache scout named Nantaje. The natives in the cave were all Yavapai. That happened on Dec. 28, 1872. Seventy-five men, women and children died.
Take care,
Joe
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Also the Apache Leap story was taken from the Battle @ Turret Peak & was also Yavapais, not Apaches & didn't happen in the Sups. My great-grandfather was a scout for that one. Many Whites didn't know an Apache from a Yavapai (or a Navajo, Hualapai, etc.).
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Injunbro. The Apache were squinchy eyed, runty, ugly, mean people 
??
??Injunbro. The Apache were squinchy eyed, runty, ugly, mean people
Nope, that's you scrawny, wimpy, sniveling, little Oirishmen. Us real Injuns are big, muscular, handsome, generous & kind enough to put up w/ you near-sighted mule-smooching heathens who keep vainly trying to belittle us. If we weren't the fine kindly folk we are we'd have swatted you whiners like flies years ago.
Cubfan64
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In my opinion Miles did little more than get put in the game with the Chiricahua down to their last strike with the anglo's up by 15 runs. An argument can be made that he didn't even throw the final strike (Gatewood did) yet he (Miles) walked away taking all the credit.
The real operation that harassed the Chiricahua to the point where most of them finally gave up was run by Crook. But I agree with your point that it was the endless tracking and harassment that ended it all (again for most of them).
If the Chricahua could have known what would eventually happen to them (Florida, Alabama and Oklahoma as prisoners of war for 27 odd years), I would hazard a guess that most of them would have continued fighting until the bitter end. They were made promises that the "top" officials never authorized or ever intended to keep in order to get them to give up.
The whole Apache war was an ugly, ugly ordeal fraught with misunderstandings, hatred, lies and terrible terrible fighting.
Exactly. Miles spent most of the time he was "in charge" of AZ territory goofing off in California w/ his family, he did check in by telegraph occasionally. He was a back-stabbing politician hoping to become President. He lied about catching all of the Chiricahuas, shipped off all he could find (w/out authorization) including his scouts who were US soldiers. He even illegally imprisoned children born in captivity.
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
But, Injunbro, not all whites were like that ? Incidentally, did the apache ever take baths ?? I don't mean sweat houses. I kinda thought that no ambushes could be successful if they were upwind ?? Insult gods gift for the betterment of the white race eh 
You and IPUK.
? Incidentally, did the apache ever take baths ?? I don't mean sweat houses. I kinda thought that no ambushes could be successful if they were upwind ?? Insult gods gift for the betterment of the white race eh You and IPUK.
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Injun bro, My pappy, an Oirisher, was 6', 6" and weighed 250 lbs. All of his family were over 6', then along came I, you can imagine the silly remarks that the poor guy had to endure. Course it was from mi mither's background, Frechies. He was a weight lifter also. Prob could lift two squinchy eyed , smelly Apache with each arm.
Join IPUK and I The others are automatically invited.
Join IPUK and I The others are automatically invited.
Oroblanco
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Well I would point out some specifics here. For one, the Yavapais were not discerned as being a separate, different people by the Americans at the time. Also, in both cases which I cited, the Indians were indeed at least camped in the mountains (the Superstitions were considered to cover a much larger area than what is considered by that name today) and camping is "living" as they were semi-nomadic, so should count as 'living' there when they were caught and attacked. Also these massacre sites are viewed by Apaches of today as being "sacred" which at least implies they feel some direct connection to those tragedies.
On general Nelson Miles, if you study his campaign you may be impressed. He was more relentless than Crook or any of his predecessors, and his innovative use of heliograph signal stations allowed for faster communications for his forces. On the other hand, Crook is highly over-rated as an Indian-fighter in my opinion. Just look at what he was doing right after his fight with a part of the Sioux and Cheyennes that later fought Custer, which battle took place on Rosebud creek a week before the Little Bighorn. Crook did not even bother to inform the other forces in the field that he was taking his force out of the campaign for six weeks, which he spent hunting and fishing in the Bighorn mountains and his 1500 soldiers laying idle in camp. If any general did that today, in the middle of a war, he would be court martialed at the least. Miles was certainly unfair in his treatment of the Apache scouts especially, but considering the decades of atrocities, thefts, raids etc and feeling of the American population in the southwest, it was probably the most humane option available and in fact preserved the Apache as a people, had they faced the rage of the American settlers they might well have been exterminated entirely. The newspapers of the day were certainly calling for this very option.
There are other tragic battles in the Superstitions region involving the Apaches as well, such as Bloody Tanks. As much as the modern 'mystique' seems to wish to impart an Apache stronghold type idea of the Superstitions, the reality was quite the opposite. Those tight canyons and rough terrain proved to be as much a trap for the Apaches and Yavapais as it was any protection against the Americans.
Please do continue;
On general Nelson Miles, if you study his campaign you may be impressed. He was more relentless than Crook or any of his predecessors, and his innovative use of heliograph signal stations allowed for faster communications for his forces. On the other hand, Crook is highly over-rated as an Indian-fighter in my opinion. Just look at what he was doing right after his fight with a part of the Sioux and Cheyennes that later fought Custer, which battle took place on Rosebud creek a week before the Little Bighorn. Crook did not even bother to inform the other forces in the field that he was taking his force out of the campaign for six weeks, which he spent hunting and fishing in the Bighorn mountains and his 1500 soldiers laying idle in camp. If any general did that today, in the middle of a war, he would be court martialed at the least. Miles was certainly unfair in his treatment of the Apache scouts especially, but considering the decades of atrocities, thefts, raids etc and feeling of the American population in the southwest, it was probably the most humane option available and in fact preserved the Apache as a people, had they faced the rage of the American settlers they might well have been exterminated entirely. The newspapers of the day were certainly calling for this very option.
There are other tragic battles in the Superstitions region involving the Apaches as well, such as Bloody Tanks. As much as the modern 'mystique' seems to wish to impart an Apache stronghold type idea of the Superstitions, the reality was quite the opposite. Those tight canyons and rough terrain proved to be as much a trap for the Apaches and Yavapais as it was any protection against the Americans.
Please do continue;
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Your call Injun bro. Sorry you don't have a sense of humor. As I mentioned, we didn't have anything to do with it. I have Japanese friends that we have been bantering back and forth, yet we are good friends, and we 'did' have something to do with it, they were at Guadalcanal also.
real....i thought we were all having fun here but i guess i was wrong...some people just have paper thin skin...
Cubfan64
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Oro, you stated...
I've spent the last few years reading everything I can find regarding the Apache Wars, so I've definitely studied Miles and his 5 month campaign against the Chiricahua. I come away unimpressed with Miles in every respect except one - he did and said whatever he could (including blatant lies) to put an end to the last of the "renegade" Apache. It's something Crook could have and one could argue that as purely a military man he should have done rather than put his trust in the renegades to live up to their word and come in on their own.
Here are some of the things Miles did in the last 5 months of the Apache wars.
1. Miles (along with Sheridan) distrusted the Apache scouts that Crook relied on to track and constantly harass the renegades, so Miles took the majority of them out of service. If you want to talk about impressive strategies, I would argue that Crook's understanding of the Apache allowed him to put Apache scouts into service and I personally agree with his assessment that "Chricahua scouts were of more value in hunting down and compelling the surrender of the renegades than all other troops engaged in operations against them, combined."
2. The employment of the heliograph system was indeed a novel approach for communication and worthy of some credit, however in the end I found no evidence that it's use ever allowed his soldiers in the field to find Geronimo and his band.
3. Miles received 2000 additional soldiers giving him a total of ~5000 men (1/4 of the US army at that time) to try to find, fight and capture Geronimo and his band. The Mexican army also had thousands of soldiers out looking plus the additional volunteers and assorted bounty hunters, etc... amounted to something on the order of 9-11,000 people out looking for 18 renegade warriors, 13 women and 6 children. Other than 1 time where Lawton came across a camp in the Sierra Madre, Miles' campaign never captured or killed a single Chiricahua.
4. Miles eventually came to appreciate Crook's use of Chiricahua scouts. He asked for advice and assigned Kayitah and Martine to accompany Gatewood on a mission in the hope that with a smaller force and the use of the scouts he could make contact with Geronimo. Gatewood was eventually successful with the help of his 2 Chiricahua scouts and George Wratten as a trusted interpreter and they convinced Geronimo and the last of his band to surrender.
In military reports, Lawton took credit for the capture claiming that Gatewood "failed to secure a surrender" and that Lawton himself was the one who finally persuaded Geronimo to come in. Miles listed all the officers who had served with honor during the 5 month campaign but failed to ever even mention Gatewood's name, and Kayitah and Martine (who it can be argued were the most important 2 men without whom Geronimo and his band would likely have continued evading the troops) were subsequently put on a train and shipped to Florida with the rest of the "hostiles."
In short, I see very little impressive about Miles' "campaign" against the Apache. He was in the right place at the right time imho and despite himself he happened to be in charge when the last of the renegades came in. I don't see anywhere how he was more relentless than Crook and his forces.
As to what sort of soldier or indian fighter Crook was, that doesn't enter into my argument at all. I have little or no knowledge of what he did or didn't do in other wars, only what he accomplished in the Apache Wars of AZ, NM and Mexico. I'm not oblivious to his faults at all, I just don't believe personally that Miles did anything outstanding or impressive to end the war of attrition against the Chiricahua, and his lack of credit to those men who did the "dirty work" leaves me with a very bad taste.
I've spent the last few years reading everything I can find regarding the Apache Wars, so I've definitely studied Miles and his 5 month campaign against the Chiricahua. I come away unimpressed with Miles in every respect except one - he did and said whatever he could (including blatant lies) to put an end to the last of the "renegade" Apache. It's something Crook could have and one could argue that as purely a military man he should have done rather than put his trust in the renegades to live up to their word and come in on their own.
Here are some of the things Miles did in the last 5 months of the Apache wars.
1. Miles (along with Sheridan) distrusted the Apache scouts that Crook relied on to track and constantly harass the renegades, so Miles took the majority of them out of service. If you want to talk about impressive strategies, I would argue that Crook's understanding of the Apache allowed him to put Apache scouts into service and I personally agree with his assessment that "Chricahua scouts were of more value in hunting down and compelling the surrender of the renegades than all other troops engaged in operations against them, combined."
2. The employment of the heliograph system was indeed a novel approach for communication and worthy of some credit, however in the end I found no evidence that it's use ever allowed his soldiers in the field to find Geronimo and his band.
3. Miles received 2000 additional soldiers giving him a total of ~5000 men (1/4 of the US army at that time) to try to find, fight and capture Geronimo and his band. The Mexican army also had thousands of soldiers out looking plus the additional volunteers and assorted bounty hunters, etc... amounted to something on the order of 9-11,000 people out looking for 18 renegade warriors, 13 women and 6 children. Other than 1 time where Lawton came across a camp in the Sierra Madre, Miles' campaign never captured or killed a single Chiricahua.
4. Miles eventually came to appreciate Crook's use of Chiricahua scouts. He asked for advice and assigned Kayitah and Martine to accompany Gatewood on a mission in the hope that with a smaller force and the use of the scouts he could make contact with Geronimo. Gatewood was eventually successful with the help of his 2 Chiricahua scouts and George Wratten as a trusted interpreter and they convinced Geronimo and the last of his band to surrender.
In military reports, Lawton took credit for the capture claiming that Gatewood "failed to secure a surrender" and that Lawton himself was the one who finally persuaded Geronimo to come in. Miles listed all the officers who had served with honor during the 5 month campaign but failed to ever even mention Gatewood's name, and Kayitah and Martine (who it can be argued were the most important 2 men without whom Geronimo and his band would likely have continued evading the troops) were subsequently put on a train and shipped to Florida with the rest of the "hostiles."
In short, I see very little impressive about Miles' "campaign" against the Apache. He was in the right place at the right time imho and despite himself he happened to be in charge when the last of the renegades came in. I don't see anywhere how he was more relentless than Crook and his forces.
As to what sort of soldier or indian fighter Crook was, that doesn't enter into my argument at all. I have little or no knowledge of what he did or didn't do in other wars, only what he accomplished in the Apache Wars of AZ, NM and Mexico. I'm not oblivious to his faults at all, I just don't believe personally that Miles did anything outstanding or impressive to end the war of attrition against the Chiricahua, and his lack of credit to those men who did the "dirty work" leaves me with a very bad taste.
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Oroblanco
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Great post Paul, thank you for taking the time to write it. I would suggest to read Mile's own version of events, in his autobiography, which may not change your views whatsoever but does shed light on his side of these matters. The title is:
"Personal Recollections and Observations of General Nelson A. Miles"
Almost all of the Amerindian tribes that fought against the US, surrendered largely due to the relentless, non-stop pursuit practiced by US military forces. Warfare for most tribes was seen as a seasonal affair; to find that the US enemy did not stop when winter arrived proved to be a terrible shock. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Miles performance in the last Apache war; although he won no major battles and was in large part simply continuing the same strategy as used by Crook, to his credit this last short campaign put an end to centuries of bloody and tragic warfare even if by a cruel temporary exile for the Apaches.
Please do continue;
I have a sense of humor as you would notice if you actually read my replies. However, 80% of your posts either have nothing to do w/ the subject (often rambling on about the Japanese or something else totally unrelated) or are just blatant insults. I enjoy this topic, too bad you have no ability to actually contribute anything useful to the conversation. Why don't you simply go somewhere else & blather about your mine that's overrun w/ cartels or tell some stories about your wandering the globe until you found a kid who'd marry you or the book you never write (& never will)? I might drop by here again sometime but it won't be to read your BS.
Cubfan64
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Roy - I will look into reading Miles' autobiography, but I've got a bunch of other books in line first. I'm hesitant about the prospect of reading biographies as I feel by definition they give a skewed view of a person's life - it's one of the reasons I've never read Crook's autobiography either.
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