tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[cactusjumper]

Anyone know what "Sno ta hay" means, or what language it's from? If Apache, which band?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI JEFF: Cool it heheheheheh relax. I personally am enjoying the different topics,

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

tonight after watching those post vanish i set in a chair thinking about what i have risk and what i have found , what a total confusion of legends mix into a total mess ..

then i said to my self all you need to do is lay it out and see what you have that is suported by evidence and facts .

i beleive the site 4 is the seven caves of chicomoztoc ,the catcoms , dated back into the 1300Bc when the flood took place and the tribes vanision into the earth ,into the catcoms ,,,i have found 3 enterences , two are mine shafts ,one is some kind of old Kiva ladders or Wooden Indian log ladders i know it goes downward into something below ...i have define 6 out of 7 caves , and a ball cort ,the remains of a old church ....

after i set back and looked at the evidence and facts ...one thing remains clear

i have defined a site where all of these things can be found call this site anything you want . so many have called it diffrent things threw the years .. seven caves . catcoms , chicomoztoc, tayopa, sombrero mine the LDM ...


but one thing is clear .. i have define site #4

there are over 35 pionts of interest at site #4

i have bit almost everything i own that i could find what started the legends and i am sure i have ...

BB: Here's hoping whatever you think you have is the same thing you have.

J

 

[jeff of pa]

HI JEFF: Cool it heheheheheh relax. I personally am enjoying the different topics,

Don Jose de La Mancha

And that is why there are different places for different topics

If anyone wants to Discuss everthing in one thread
Become a Charter member & Start your own

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?board=282.0

 

[Highmountain]

HI JEFF: Cool it heheheheheh relax. I personally am enjoying the different topics,

Don Jose de La Mancha

And that is why there are different places for different topics

If anyone wants to Discuss everthing in one thread
Become a Charter member & Start your own

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?board=282.0

Thanks Jeff:

I'd be obliged if you'd move my posts [and Bill's] concerning Nino Cochise, Sno Ta Hay, etc, to one of the recent Adams Diggings threads. They're only peripherally related to Toyopa because of a mention of it in the Nino book. I shouldn't have allowed my question involving Nino Cochise/Toyopa to drift into anything regarding the Adams.

Apologies and gracias,
Jack

 

[jeff of pa]

You can continue that here.
I don't mind the discussion here,
as long as it stays Respectful.
as it is still Treasure related.

 

[Springfield]

Sno-Ta-Hae

Nino Cochise claimed 'Sno-Ta-Hae', the Apache gold mine, was located 2 km from Pa-Gotzin-Kay, or 'Juh's Stronghold' - the Apache sanctuary deep in the Sierra Madre. I don't believe the scholars have ever agreed on the exact location of the stronghold, but it was somewhere in the mountains west of the Bavispe - Baserac area, presumably. As mentioned above, the very name attributed to this mine and the appearance of Ammon Tenney and John Brewer in the Nino account confounds Lost Adams Diggings researchers because of the obvious common elements between the Apache mine located in northern Sonora and the LAD, purportedly located in Arizona/New Mexico. The proximity of Nino's Sno-Ta-Hae to Tayopa is an open question so far as I know.

 

[Highmountain]

Re: Sno-Ta-Hae

Nino Cochise claimed 'Sno-Ta-Hae', the Apache gold mine, was located 2 km from Pa-Gotzin-Kay, or 'Juh's Stronghold' - the Apache sanctuary deep in the Sierra Madre. I don't believe the scholars have ever agreed on the exact location of the stronghold, but it was somewhere in the mountains west of the Bavispe - Baserac area, presumably. As mentioned above, the very name attributed to this mine and the appearance of Ammon Tenney and John Brewer in the Nino account confounds Lost Adams Diggings researchers because of the obvious common elements between the Apache mine located in northern Sonora and the LAD, purportedly located in Arizona/New Mexico. The proximity of Nino's Sno-Ta-Hae to Tayopa is an open question so far as I know.

Hi Springfield. As frequently happens you've given me pause for thought. I've assumed through the years that the Sno Ta Hay Nino Cochise describes was merely a namesake, a coincidence of naming for two different mines. I'd never considered the possibility the two were the same. It doesn't fit any of the Adams tales insofar as directions from the starting points Adams and Brewer described, but it wouldn't be the only time in the careers of the two they'd seemed to change a few facts.

Something to consider, along with another twist of a different sort that comes to mind as a result of your post.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Gossamer]

My understanding is that on the 'perlatata (?") stones, I saw a horse... does a horse have anything to do with mining, why would it be there? i also noticed its a particular kind of horse, but what kind?
Anybody with an idead about it?
Janiece

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HMMM ? In the Tayopa Barranca there is a cave, that under a bias relief effect of the rising sun on a certain day, looks exactly like a skull.

The Apache in the1800's used to go down the rio Mayo to the junction of the Barbarocos, then go up it to the cave. It is perhaps 600 ft below the rim of the mesa.

They told me that they used the cave to hide out in since there was plenty of water, wood etc. and it's location gave them plenty to time to escape if any enemy ever entered the Barranca.

They told me that they had stored many weapons and dried food in the cave, but, in the back there were many cowhide bags with metal.


Hmmm do you suppose? You have my curiosity aroused. SNO TA HAE ?

Incidentally, only my wife and I know of it's location. The Indians that live in the area do not know of it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Gossamer - just wanted to say thanks for the tidbit on the Bay of Jars ancient shipwreck, I have a fair amount of info on it including some fair photos of the amphoras. They are "Roman" really in time-period only, North African in origins.

Janiece there is quite a bit in several other threads on the so-called Peralta Stones, might answer your questions OR raise more (seems to work that way more often than settling anything). Here are a few linkees:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,68016.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,113906.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,104346.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.0.html

Their relationship to Tayopa is IMHO very questionable, but some see linkages including the name being on the stones, in code.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

"They told me that they used the cave to hide out in since there was plenty of water, wood etc. and it's location gave them plenty to time to escape if any enemy ever entered the Barranca.

They told me that they had stored many weapons and dried food in the cave, but, in the back there were many cowhide bags with metal.


Hmmm do you suppose? You have my curiosity aroused. SNO TA HAE ?"

The first question that comes to mine is: Who are "they"?

Any mention of Nino Cochise and "Sno Ta Hae" creates more questions. I have already asked what language includes the name "Sno Ta Hae", without response. I know the reason that no one replied, but will let it ride a little longer.

The Apache have said that Nino Cochise is a fraud......start to finish. One wonders why people keep quoting him.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

HMMM ? In the Tayopa Barranca there is a cave, that under a bias relief effect of the rising sun on a certain day, looks exactly like a skull.

The Apache in the1800's used to go down the rio Mayo to the junction of the Barbarocos, then go up it to the cave. It is perhaps 600 ft below the rim of the mesa.

They told me that they used the cave to hide out in since there was plenty of water, wood etc. and it's location gave them plenty to time to escape if any enemy ever entered the Barranca.

They told me that they had stored many weapons and dried food in the cave, but, in the back there were many cowhide bags with metal.


Hmmm do you suppose? You have my curiosity aroused. SNO TA HAE ?

Incidentally, only my wife and I know of it's location. The Indians that live in the area do not know of it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose and Springfield: I'm going to start a new thread concerning the whole issue of Sno ta hay as it pertains to the Adams and as it might pertain to Toyopa. Seems to me it's worthy of discussion in a thread all its own. On the other hand, if it's not the price of threads dying without any response is no higher than those with a few thousands of comments.

Just FYI in case you care to add your thoughts.

Jack

 

[Springfield]

... The Apache have said that Nino Cochise is a fraud......start to finish. One wonders why people keep quoting him.

Take care,
Joe

The voracity of Nino's material is controversial and as far as I know the jury is still out on his claims, many of which are probably unverifiable today. As far as 'the Apache' claiming he was a fraud ... well, as always with supporters or detractors, we must consider the source and motivation behind these statements. Many of today's Apaches are surprisingly ignorant of their own history - a sad fact brought about primarily due to their assimilation. The old ones are all gone and the young ones aren't in much of a position to know or care what occurred 120 years ago. Overall, only a small number of the tribal members from the late 19th century actually visited Juh's sanctuary, so eyewitnesses were scarce at best, even in Nino's time. I'd be hard-pressed to call him a fraud without some red meat to back the allegation.

 

[Springfield]

Jose and Springfield: I'm going to start a new thread concerning the whole issue of Sno ta hay as it pertains to the Adams and as it might pertain to Toyopa. Seems to me it's worthy of discussion in a thread all its own. On the other hand, if it's not the price of threads dying without any response is no higher than those with a few thousands of comments.

Just FYI in case you care to add your thoughts.

Jack

Splendid idea.

 

[Highmountain]

Jose and Springfield: I'm going to start a new thread concerning the whole issue of Sno ta hay as it pertains to the Adams and as it might pertain to Toyopa. Seems to me it's worthy of discussion in a thread all its own. On the other hand, if it's not the price of threads dying without any response is no higher than those with a few thousands of comments.

Just FYI in case you care to add your thoughts.

Jack

Done deal.

J

Splendid idea.

 

[Gossamer]

Hi... everything kinda quiet around here... I went to the Buckhorn museum in far east Mesa AZ yesterday... walked the property. They aren't open anymore, but what an amazing place.
I took quite a few pics and as soon as I learn how to get them out of my new camera with post them.
The Sups were beautiful and tomorrow I'm hoping to go out again.
I found this interesting article... not sure if it goes here, but thought you'all would like it.

http://www.leightonbuzzardonline.co.uk/news/Metal-detector-finds-silver-ring.4115986.jp

Hope all is well.
Janiece

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Janiece (Gossamer) and everyone,

Thanks for the linkee, what a cool find! I know I would flip if I found such a ring. Yes things have been rather quiet here lately.

Cactusjumper wrote:

I have already asked what language includes the name "Sno Ta Hae", without response. I know the reason that no one replied, but will let it ride a little longer.

Well my apologies amigo - I did not respond to the question because I do not know the answer as an absolute fact, and doubt that it would be something a fellow could find on the internet; that qualification said, it has been my belief that the name is not Apache at all but Navajo, and the meaning is different. For those who don't know, Apache and Navajo are related languages with interesting differences, such as the name of 'the people' in Navajo is Dineh', in Apache it is Nideh. The version we are reading here of Sno ta hay is a different one from that I am familiar with, which is why I have not said much about it. The version I got from a Navajo friend who was also a neighbor and has some significant differences; I doubt it is published anywhere so I don't know if I would have permission even to post it.
Oroblanco
Edit - PS - I think I can say this much, my friend did point out that Sno ta hay, according to him, is a name and not words used in ordinary conversation. He also pronounced it a little different, more like a "sh"nota - hay.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

We have been told that "Sno Ta Hae" is an Apache name. If that is true, it would be something like: Tu Nchaa Haline (Much Water Flows Up And Out). There would be some kind of story behind or descriptive of the place.

As it is spelled, IMHO, it is not Western Apache nor Jicarilla. Those are the two languages I am slightly familiar with. It has been noted elsewhere that it is likely Navajo. I would tend to agree with that. If the name is Apache, it has been badly misspelled. That is nothing new.

Anyone trying to understand the Apache Culture, would do well to get a copy of "Wisdom Sits in Places" Landscape and language among the Western Apache" by, Keith H. Basso. The stories behind the naming of "places" make's for a very interesting read.

Good luck in tracking down the origin of "Sno Ta Hae".

Take care,

joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Well Joe to "back up" the Navajo origin of the name Sno ta hay, remember in the story of Adams, the famous Apache war-chief Nana (who led one of the most astonishing raids in military history, still studied today in West Point) informed Adams that the Tsi-chene people called the canyon "Sno ta hay"- well the Tsi-chene or Tsi-chini people are a band of Navajo, sometimes spelled "Tse kehne" and also Sicani, Sekani, etc and means "People of the rocks". The land and name was Navajo before it was Apacheria, at least according to the Apache Nana.

This does not rule out the possibility that the name could be a borrowed one from another language, or even from an earlier tribal people who occupied the region. Geographical names tend to "stick" and remain long after the people who named it have vanished.

Oroblanco