tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[Old Dog]

Oro,
Thanks for that .
Took the words right out of my post.

We have several Native American legends here that relate to the "Old ones".
There seems to be a culture that has slipped through the cracks.

After spending a couple hours with a "Ute/Navajo" friend of mine on Mothers Day. Shaman/ Medicineman.
Talking about lost cultures and lost treasures, (it seems that the Native culture is and has grown to accept and include the intrusion of the Spanish and the Apache.) The Native American is not so happy with the bad reputation they incurred when they chased the Spanish out.

On a side note My friend says that to call an Apache By his real name is to really make him angry.
From his explanation the Apache were the castoff from all the other tribes. If the man didn't fit the mold.
They just Killed him and were done with it.

The old ones were the subject however and he went into an hour+ long rant of how historians have just let an entire culture slip out of the picture. They were here before the Anasazi and had knowledge of people and places across the "big water".
As well as things they wouldn't share ... mystical things. Metalurgy and other things came to my friend's mind.


This waxes long so I'll let someone else in.
There is
a huge gap in history and we ignore it...
like it was never there.

The Apache were the cast off from most other tribes who wouldn't conform to tribe norms, and hence started their own culture. The newest and nastiest group on the planet at the time.

Thom

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Thom,

I share your Ute/Navajo friend's view on our history, that a huge hole is there that is just ignored by historians as if nothing happened. I do not buy that old Isolation theory either, that Amerindians were in complete isolation from the rest of the world for many centuries; for this idea to hold true, we must have NO evidence of any kind of contact and that is simply not the case. It is funny how the Apaches seem to be viewed by other tribes of the southwest - the Pimas say that the Apaches and Pimas used to live together, with the Apaches living more toward the "wild" life and the Pimas living more 'civilized' until one day the Apaches just went off to live in the wilderness. Real de Tayopa informed me of the Yaqui view of Apaches, saying they were not too formidible an enemies. From Hollywood and numerous Western-authors we get the opposite view, with the Apaches being depicted as noble savages, ferocious fighters, tremendous endurance, courage, and cruelty. The truth seems to be somewhere in between. The Apaches were at one time a plains tribe, and were driven into the mountainous southwest by more powerful tribes. The region which became known as Apacheria was formerly known (to the Spanish) as "Despoblado" - a region seemingly devoid of people. Parts of the area were occupied, but only thinly and widely scattered (such as the Navajo band that occupied Sno-ta-hay before the Apaches drove them out) but once the Apache took possession of the area they managed to hold it against more powerful neighbors. The Apaches were not "at war" instantly the moment that the Americans arrived on the scene, and quite good relations did exist - for years in some cases. Even in this story of the Adams diggings, we find one of the most feared Apache chieftains, Nana, is open to the idea of working with the 'whites' and allowing them to dig for gold in Apacheria, so long as they would remain in the allotted area. Unfortunately for the Adams party, they simply could not be content with a fabulously rich gold placer but HAD to go into the specific area Nana had forbidden them to enter. So many of the so-called "Indian wars" incidents can be traced to such ignorant behavior and even worse, such as simple misunderstandings that it seems incredible today - with just a little more effort to try to "get along" - I believe that a great many of those wars could have been averted.

Thanks for the post amigo, perhaps one day (if we live long enough) we will get to see some of those holes in history get filled in with the remarkable story of the people "who went before". Good luck and good hunting my friend, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO ORO, I was also informed that the Apache almost never made a frontal attack, they always fired from ambush. If the results were favorable they would then come into the open and finish off the victims of the attack - slowly to extract the maximum of spiritual energy. If not, they would simply go away.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Oro,
Thanks for that .
Took the words right out of my post.

We have several Native American legends here that relate to the "Old ones".
There seems to be a culture that has slipped through the cracks.

After spending a couple hours with a "Ute/Navajo" friend of mine on Mothers Day. Shaman/ Medicineman.
Talking about lost cultures and lost treasures, (it seems that the Native culture is and has grown to accept and include the intrusion of the Spanish and the Apache.) The Native American is not so happy with the bad reputation they incurred when they chased the Spanish out.

On a side note My friend says that to call an Apache By his real name is to really make him angry.
From his explanation the Apache were the castoff from all the other tribes. If the man didn't fit the mold.
They just Killed him and were done with it.

The old ones were the subject however and he went into an hour+ long rant of how historians have just let an entire culture slip out of the picture. They were here before the Anasazi and had knowledge of people and places across the "big water".
As well as things they wouldn't share ... mystical things. Metalurgy and other things came to my friend's mind.


This waxes long so I'll let someone else in.
There is
a huge gap in history and we ignore it...
like it was never there.

The Apache were the cast off from most other tribes who wouldn't conform to tribe norms, and hence started their own culture. The newest and nastiest group on the planet at the time.

Thom

Thom: Probably to a large degree it depends on which tribal member and which tribe a person's talking to as to how history ran.

Talking about lost cultures and lost treasures, (it seems that the Native culture is and has grown to accept and include the intrusion of the Spanish and the Apache.) The Native American is not so happy with the bad reputation they incurred when they chased the Spanish out.

There's every reason to believe the Navajo arrived in the general region they occupy now about the same time as the Apache arrived in the areas they once occupied at the time of the arrival of the Spaniard in Mexico. A lot of displacement was going on at the time and shuffling of tribal geographies because of voids created by areas left empty by tribes that went elsewhere.

As to the revolt of 1680, there was plenty of ugly to go around on all sides and it continued after the Spaniard were gone. When Diego de Vargas returned he was met with a hearty welcome because the events the Spaniards called the Terrors of 1680 were followed by events the NAs might well have later called the Terrors of 1681.

From his explanation the Apache were the castoff from all the other tribes. If the man didn't fit the mold.
They just Killed him and were done with it.

Your friend might have given a biased view. Although the Navajo and Mimbres and Coyotero bands of Apache once raided into Mexico together, during the time the Mescalero and Apache were together at Bosque Redondo the Navajo slaughered a goodly percentage of the Apache there. Since then a person does hear a lot of disparaging remarks from each tribe about the other and expressed resentment. The Navajo often complain the Mescalero were given too much land on the Rez compared to the number of tribal members. The cliche reply by the Mescalero, "We fought our way down."

The Apache were the cast off from most other tribes who wouldn't conform to tribe norms, and hence started their own culture. The newest and nastiest group on the planet at the time.

The folk who lived in Comanche country probably would argue the point if they were alive, be they Kickapoo, Tonkawa, Lipan, Jicarilla, or white.

There is the remains of one tribe of Apache [and Navajo] who were outcasts, however. They're under the umbrella of the Navajo in the bureaucracy of the BIA, but they're the descendants of the Navajo and Apache scouts who led the US Army during the war of 1863-64. Today they're called the Alamo Band and are likely the most disfranchised group of people in the US, despised by the descendants of both tribes even today.

Lots of different ways to view history. Certainly one of those views can be heard from the historical enemies of each tribe, though it's debatable how much credence a person can appropriately attach to the tales.

But I agree there might have been several tribes of 'Lost Ones'. Being forgotten isn't necessarily all downside.

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing it.

Jack

Edit: Sometimes it's tempting to adopt the tribal partisanship of our tribal friends even though we're outsiders while failing to recognized it for what it is, partisanship and enmity carried through more generations than wars can last. I grew up in close proximity to the Mescalero Rez and a lot of my gut-level views concerning a lot of areas were formed by association with a few Mescalero young men of my age. Took me a lot of years to cease believing the Navajo are the lowest scum on the planet.

 

[Highmountain]

The Apaches were not "at war" instantly the moment that the Americans arrived on the scene, and quite good relations did exist - for years in some cases. Even in this story of the Adams diggings, we find one of the most feared Apache chieftains, Nana, is open to the idea of working with the 'whites' and allowing them to dig for gold in Apacheria, so long as they would remain in the allotted area. Unfortunately for the Adams party, they simply could not be content with a fabulously rich gold placer but HAD to go into the specific area Nana had forbidden them to enter. So many of the so-called "Indian wars" incidents can be traced to such ignorant behavior and even worse, such as simple misunderstandings that it seems incredible today - with just a little more effort to try to "get along" - I believe that a great many of those wars could have been averted.

The Apaches were not "at war" instantly the moment that the Americans arrived on the scene, and quite good relations did exist - for years in some cases.

Oro: As with most of the other tribes the various bands of Apache seem to have sometimes gotten along with Europeans when they arrived, some not. The Jicarilla were for many years the Spanish buffer and ally against the Comanche, while further south the Mimbres and to the east the Lipan don't appear to have ever enjoyed and overall alliances of any duration. Both tribes, along with the Navajo, raided south into Mexico until the Lipan were generally exterminated and the Mimbres were too few in numbers to do it alone.

So many of the so-called "Indian wars" incidents can be traced to such ignorant behavior and even worse, such as simple misunderstandings that it seems incredible today - with just a little more effort to try to "get along" - I believe that a great many of those wars could have been averted.

That's generally true of all wars, seems to me. There's plenty of guilt to go around on all sides, probably because whenever one side had the upper hand at any time it was exploited as brutally as the moment and the mood of the parties chose to do it.

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

HIO ORO, I was also informed that the Apache almost never made a frontal attack, they always fired from ambush. If the results were favorable they would then come into the open and finish off the victims of the attack - slowly to extract the maximum of spiritual energy. If not, they would simply go away.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose: The Apache valued winning and taking few losses over courage. The generally accepted greatest war chieftain of the Mimbres was outspoken in this regard in many of his discussions with the US Boundary Commission. He was successful, cunning, and after he was murdered by California Volunteers at Pinos Altos his head was removed, preserved and sent to Washington where the brain was removed and weighed. Prior to his the heaviest brain on record was Daniel Webster. An Apache brain then held the record until Albert Einstein.

Maybe thinking smart goes with having a large brain to some extent.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi jack: Perhaps not, brain size is not directly related to intelligence as shown by Mensa's results.

It is how the brain is organized and utilized which determines intelligence, not sheer mass.

As for ambushing frankly that is the only way to go, but the torture after, no way.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Perhaps you can find the data on that college "A" student that had a fatal accident. The autopsy showed that over 80% of his brain case was just water

Don Jose de La Mancha . .

 

[Highmountain]

hi jack: Perhaps not, brain size is not directly related to intelligence as shown by Mensa's results.

It is how the brain is organized and utilized which determines intelligence, not sheer mass.

As for ambushing frankly that is the only way to go, but the torture after, no way.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Perhaps you can find the data on that college "A" student that had a fatal accident. The autopsy showed that over 80% of his brain case was just water

Don Jose de La Mancha . .

p.s. Perhaps you can find the data on that college "A" student that had a fatal accident. The autopsy showed that over 80% of his brain case was just water

Jose: Maybe that says a lot about what it takes to make an A student and not much about intelligence.. The coincidence of a lot of brains being weighed during a century or so of scientific curiosity and Einstein and Webster being exceptionally large compared to others [along with our Apache] might be rendered meaningless by MENSA findings, or it might render the MENSA findings meaningless, seems to me.

I'll agree it wouldn't be a popular finding among folk prideful in their intelligence, but are suspicious the weight of their brains wouldn't compete in the race. Such folk, who might also belong to MENSA might well devote a lot of energy for finding the two weren't related, and the results of their finding would have to be [smilingly] weighed in that light. Same as findings of any other investigation where the investigators prefer a specific outcome.

As for ambushing frankly that is the only way to go, but the torture after, no way.

As I recall the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions might have indulged in torture, along with various European governments... the Knights Templar comes to mind. So did almost every tribe in the Americas, the Asians, whomever. Torture is a human institution as pervasive in our history as slavery. Sometimes to gain information, sometimes for punishment, sometimes for the sheer pleasure of doing it.

Doesn't have much to do with Native Americans so far as I can see, except as a means of selectively picking a splinter of behavior as an object of repudiation in rhetorical exercizes.

In some ways it's comparable to whites and Native Americans wallowing the blame and guilt of Sand Creek and Wounded Knee while blandly turning a blind eye to the countless massacres of white citizenry of all ages and sexes in wagon trains, homesteads, villages, throughout the continent by the tribal members of the time.

An arrogant and racist position of the mind when you consider it. We expect whites to be 'better than that' and to refrain from killing off people in those ways and it's worthy of condemnation, but the tribes were, what, so savage nothing better can be expected of them? Had an excuse because whites were not NAs and had no business being there to get massacred, tortured, robbed raped and plundered? We allow the tribes and guilt-ridden [racist apologist] whites to control the rules of discussion I believe, because we really do expect better of whites, but expect from the Native Americans of the time exactly what happened and help them devise excuses for those behaviors.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO HIGH: You posted-->

Jose: Maybe that says a lot about what it takes to make an A student and not much about intelligence.. The coincidence of a lot of brains being weighed during a century or so of scientific curiosity and Einstein and Webster being exceptionally large compared to others [along with our Apache] might be rendered meaningless by MENSA findings, or it might render the MENSA findings meaningless, seems to me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Professor Colin Groves, an expert in human evolution from the Australian National University, says human brains began getting bigger after our earliest ancestors like Homo habilis appeared.

But our brains have stopped growing and have actually started getting smaller, or at least more 'compact'.

Quote -> "[Our brains] have got bigger but they're not getting more intelligent," he said.

"In fact since the late Pleistocene in general they've got smaller."

Professor Groves says while brain size appears to be related to intelligence "between species," this does not seem to be the case " within a species".

Despite the development of technological advances, he says there is no evidence that Homo sapiens have become more intelligent in the last 50,000 years.

..........

Interesting, no? but then intelligence is the ability to work with the data the brain has, or is receiving. I suppose that size could be represented by a crude analogy with computers, or even simple calculators. Look at the size and energy requirements from our WW-2 Calculator (ENIAC) and today's which is part of a small wrist watch.
**********************************************************************************

You also posted-->

Torture is a human institution as pervasive in our history as slavery. Sometimes to gain information, sometimes for punishment, sometimes for the sheer pleasure of doing it.

Doesn't have much to do with Native Americans so far as I can see, except as a means of selectively picking a splinter of behavior as an object of repudiation in rhetorical exercizes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope, was referring to the habit of drawing out death to absorb the max of human spiritual energy which could only be freed by intense suffering or concentration, not as a moral statement of superiority.

I have posted on this subject before in regards to the Jesuits and what was normal for their times, 1500's - 1700's.

The classic statement applies " never judge a person until you have walked in their moccasins for a while".


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I have taken the liberty of emphasizing two statements by the professor by separation and "" marks.

 

[Gossamer]

Ok, I have a question, with all this interest in the tribes and their particular behavioural and tribal culture.
Where do Hopi fit in? I've been chasing another word, and came across a most curious report. Before I enter it into this, I would like others take...
Janiece

 

[Highmountain]

Ok, I have a question, with all this interest in the tribes and their particular behavioural and tribal culture.
Where do Hopi fit in? I've been chasing another word, and came across a most curious report. Before I enter it into this, I would like others take...
Janiece

Personal opinion, I'd put the Hopi and Zuni into a unique compartment that doesn't fit much anywhere else.

Jack

 

[Springfield]

... An arrogant and racist position of the mind when you consider it. We expect whites to be 'better than that' ..

I'm not sure that 'expect' is the proper word. 'Wish', 'hope', etc. seems more appropriate.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Allo: anyone here? We were just getting started, snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Gossamer]

LOL, I think we are following the drama on the other thread, I'm getting a kick out of it anyway.
Janiece

 

[Cynangyl]

I am still here as often as possible with my crazy schedule! and yes, that other thread has all the drama too! rofl

 

[Old Dog]

Hola Amigo !

I'm here, as time allows,
I will even comment when I have something to add.

Thom

 

[Highmountain]

LOL, I think we are following the drama on the other thread, I'm getting a kick out of it anyway.
Janiece

If you're referring to the thread where I was compulsively engaged in poking my nose into things that are none of my business, it's been deleted, so maybe I'll drift back into being my usual old mind-my-own-affairs kinda-guy.

Sorta relieved. Every post I made there I swore would be my last. If that's what you're referring to I'm glad you enjoyed watching me make a fool of myself some way out of the ordinary for me.

Gracias

Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo - I still check this thread too.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jack: You posted -->

make a fool of myself some way out of the ordinary for me
~~~~~~~~~~

ET TU ? Hmmm you too? I have a natural ability in this field. Ask the cowboy, Djuisy is prejudiced.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Jack: You posted -->

make a fool of myself some way out of the ordinary for me
~~~~~~~~~~

ET TU ? Hmmm you too? I have a natural ability in this field. Ask the cowboy, Djuisy is prejudiced.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose: Thanks for the reply. The trait you and I share we also share with the rest of humanity. The one we don't share with most of humanity is that we recognize it.

It's tempting to think it comes with years, the recognizing of it, but once we take a closer look that one goes out the window.

Have a great one. That's an order!

Jack