Stone Tablets-Most likely planted fakes.

[Hal Croves]

It may not be without merit, but unless you have solid, direct proof, you may want to stop insinuating that Odd Halseth was up to no good as far as the Stone Maps.

So, no one proved it to be without merrit. That's alright.
We are here to exchange ideas, debate fact, and to hopefully learn something new.

I am not insinuating that Odd was up to no good. I am pointing a finger at him, after quite a bit of research and based on my understanding of the stones, and accusing him of making one of the most fascinating ciphers in the Southwest. What has been done with them since, is and always will be the responsibility of the person struggling to understand them.

This is only a theory based on my personal belief that the stones are a cipher (using treasure symbols available in print at the time).

 

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[gollum]

CHLSBRNS,

Just look at your theory from a distance for a second. For the Stone Maps to have been created as a false sign to lead people away from someplace would require the maker/hoaxer to publicize them. The public would have to see the stones in order to be led astray, right? Travis Tumlinson (as I have said several times) NEVER attempted to either sell the stones or publicize them in any way for the ENTIRE TWELVE YEARS HE OWNED THEM!

After his death in 1961, his wife sold them to an old family friend Clarence O Mitchell for about $1200. Mitchell kept them a secret for about three years while he tried to figure out the stones.

The existence of the Stone Maps was kept out of the public eye from 1949 until 1964 (when the article in Life Magazine came out). You can ascribe any motivations you want to Clarence Mitchell. I don't know or care what he did with the stones. There are stories that Mitchell through his company MOEL, Inc. solicited funds from people using the Stone Maps as bait. In nine years, I have not had one person come forward stating that Mitchell had solicited funds from them using the Stone Maps as a lure.

Your theory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Sorry.


Hal,

If Halseth did create the Stone Maps, then the whole thing about them being in the floor of the Arizpe Mission can't be true. I am okay with that. My problem with Halseth creating them to be some mysterious cipher loses standing when you look at the way Tumlinson found them. Why would Halseth plant the stones in a place where nobody goes? Buried in Queen Creek? Not likely. Someone creating a cipher that was meant to be found would place it where it would be found. In a cave in the Supers. Not buried far outside the mountains along a creek. Doesn't pass the smell test for me.

My money is still on Tumlinson either finding them where he said he did, or getting them from his Grandfather Pegleg Tumlinson. After all, Travis WAS on his way back to Oregon from visiting family in Texas when he found the stones!

Mike

 

[chlsbrns]

CHLSBRNS,

Just look at your theory from a distance for a second. For the Stone Maps to have been created as a false sign to lead people away from someplace would require the maker/hoaxer to publicize them. The public would have to see the stones in order to be led astray, right? Travis Tumlinson (as I have said several times) NEVER attempted to either sell the stones or publicize them in any way for the ENTIRE TWELVE YEARS HE OWNED THEM!

After his death in 1961, his wife sold them to an old family friend Clarence O Mitchell for about $1200. Mitchell kept them a secret for about three years while he tried to figure out the stones.

The existence of the Stone Maps was kept out of the public eye from 1949 until 1964 (when the article in Life Magazine came out). You can ascribe any motivations you want to Clarence Mitchell. I don't know or care what he did with the stones. There are stories that Mitchell through his company MOEL, Inc. solicited funds from people using the Stone Maps as bait. In nine years, I have not had one person come forward stating that Mitchell had solicited funds from them using the Stone Maps as a lure.

Your theory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Sorry.


Hal,

If Halseth did create the Stone Maps, then the whole thing about them being in the floor of the Arizpe Mission can't be true. I am okay with that. My problem with Halseth creating them to be some mysterious cipher loses standing when you look at the way Tumlinson found them. Why would Halseth plant the stones in a place where nobody goes? Buried in Queen Creek? Not likely. Someone creating a cipher that was meant to be found would place it where it would be found. In a cave in the Supers. Not buried far outside the mountains along a creek. Doesn't pass the smell test for me.

My money is still on Tumlinson either finding them where he said he did, or getting them from his Grandfather Pegleg Tumlinson. After all, Travis WAS on his way back to Oregon from visiting family in Texas when he found the stones!

Mike

What does who found the stones have to do with who planted them? In any event the stones led everyone away from where they were found.

Whomever planted the stones didnt know that the finder would keep them secret.

Planting near or in water, close to a road in a desert would be a good place to put something if you wanted them to be found.

 

[Hal Croves]

CHLSBRNS,

Just look at your theory from a distance for a second. For the Stone Maps to have been created as a false sign to lead people away from someplace would require the maker/hoaxer to publicize them. The public would have to see the stones in order to be led astray, right? Travis Tumlinson (as I have said several times) NEVER attempted to either sell the stones or publicize them in any way for the ENTIRE TWELVE YEARS HE OWNED THEM!

After his death in 1961, his wife sold them to an old family friend Clarence O Mitchell for about $1200. Mitchell kept them a secret for about three years while he tried to figure out the stones.

The existence of the Stone Maps was kept out of the public eye from 1949 until 1964 (when the article in Life Magazine came out). You can ascribe any motivations you want to Clarence Mitchell. I don't know or care what he did with the stones. There are stories that Mitchell through his company MOEL, Inc. solicited funds from people using the Stone Maps as bait. In nine years, I have not had one person come forward stating that Mitchell had solicited funds from them using the Stone Maps as a lure.

Your theory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Sorry.


Hal,

If Halseth did create the Stone Maps, then the whole thing about them being in the floor of the Arizpe Mission can't be true. I am okay with that. My problem with Halseth creating them to be some mysterious cipher loses standing when you look at the way Tumlinson found them. Why would Halseth plant the stones in a place where nobody goes? Buried in Queen Creek? Not likely. Someone creating a cipher that was meant to be found would place it where it would be found. In a cave in the Supers. Not buried far outside the mountains along a creek. Doesn't pass the smell test for me.

My money is still on Tumlinson either finding them where he said he did, or getting them from his Grandfather Pegleg Tumlinson. After all, Travis WAS on his way back to Oregon from visiting family in Texas when he found the stones!

Mike

Gollum,
I waited for the story about the mission floor but don't remember it ever being shared publicly. Are there other examples of this same material in that floor?

You have to understand Odd and the Dons connection to the development of Arizona's highway system and the magazine that sprung up to promote its use. If we are to believe the discovery story, the location was an idea place to leave the stones. They were discovered by someone who pulled over for a view. A tourist. The coincidence that the discoverer was connected to a noted treasure hunter is what I find unsettling. Perhaps he simply knew enough to look down.

Isn't there a connection between the Dutchman and Queen Creek?

Odd was on site when they discovered Ruth's skull. That is for me one of the mysteries. Ruth's missing map. I am not sure that it was ever located.

That trip must have been incredible despite the weather they encountered.

 

[chlsbrns]

Im looking on google earth at queen creek where the stones were claimed to be found. What is the excavated area that borders the creek? It looks like a reclamation of a mine.

 

[chlsbrns]

...

 

[Advocat]

...

Hanson Queen Creek Plant #42 -- they supply concrete, sand and rock. Not currently any digging or hauling equipment on the site, so they may no longer be in business or this location is just not in current use.

 

[motel6.5]

The Dutchman had a claim at one time called the Black Queen , should not be confused with Queen Creek in any
way, shape or purpose.

 

[chlsbrns]

The Dutchman had a claim at one time called the Black Queen , should not be confused with Queen Creek in any
way, shape or purpose.

What dutchman? Not Waltz he was dead when the black queen mine was claimed.

 

[deducer]

Gollum,
I waited for the story about the mission floor but don't remember it ever being shared publicly.

SMHS Journals, Vol. 11, available for purchase on CD via the SMM website.

 

[gollum]

The only claims I know of that Waltz had were in the Bradshaws. Actually nice paying gold claims (The Gross, Big Rebel, and General Grant Claims).

CHLSBRNS,

Okay, I see what you mean. Usually people blame hoaxing the Stone Maps of Tumlinson himself. You are thinking like Hal, that someone faked the stones, and placed them near Queen Creek for some random person to find.

Here is a copy of the map Tumlinson gave to his Uncle Robert showing where he found the Stone Maps:


Here is an overlay:


The red circle is where Tumlinson said he found the stones.

So CHLSBRNS, whom do you think planted the stone maps?

Mike

 

[sgtfda]

The stones were found off old 60 not new 60 Mike. Old 60 went into Queen Valley

 

[chlsbrns]

Everything about the LDM is disputed by others including where the stones were found.

I don't have a clue who planted the stones but im more inclined to "think" or "believe" that there are buried caches close to where the stones were found. Maybe sgt will investigate?

Personally if I lived in the area I would be using a two box searching for buried caches and heavy deposits that surely exist.

 

[gollum]

The stones were found off old 60 not new 60 Mike. Old 60 went into Queen Valley

Frank,

The black and white map was hand marked by Travis Tumlinson in about 1956 for his uncle Robert.

The old 60 can be seen from the new 60. I have been to the spot. The old pavement is just on the North side of the ditch. Charlie Miller (friends with Travis Tumlinson) showed Al Reser the spot where Tumlinson told him he found the stones. Al Reser went to the spot and found The Latin Heart after some digging around. Reser and Jim Hatt were good friends. One of the things Jim sent me before he passed away was a map of the area with the spot marked.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

There are three possibilities of how Travis Tumlinson came by the Stone Maps:

1. He found them just like he said he did. Just North of the 60 at Florence Junction.

2. His Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (a well known treasure hunter around the turn of the century) got them from a person that stole them from the Mission at Arizpe, Mexico.

3. He made them

Mike

Of course those are not the only possibilities (not saying you made that claim). (2) doesn't have to be limited to who he got them from or whence they came. How he got them and who from could be 'anything'.

I would look at this from a different angle. Either A. they are from circa 1847 (if so what are they? by whom? ) or B. they are not (then, from where, when and why? by whom?)

After that things can diverge all over creation.

Why would there be only one set of maps to only one mine? If that is what they are.

If peraltas had a bunch of mines and this is a map to one, there should be other map sets around, unless this leads to the index of mine locations.

If the supposed location at Florence Junction was the drop site where they kept the map or maps why not a better spot? Some landmark, better hidden, easier to locate for the knowing?

 

[chlsbrns]

Frank,

The black and white map was hand marked by Travis Tumlinson in about 1956 for his uncle Robert.

The old 60 can be seen from the new 60. I have been to the spot. The old pavement is just on the North side of the ditch. Charlie Miller (friends with Travis Tumlinson) showed Al Reser the spot where Tumlinson told him he found the stones. Al Reser went to the spot and found The Latin Heart after some digging around. Reser and Jim Hatt were good friends. One of the things Jim sent me before he passed away was a map of the area with the spot marked.

Mike

This spot? 33°16'19.86"N 111°19'38.36"W

You made a point that I had in mind. I didnt know that someone found a heart at a later date. My thought was that if the stone was found then there may be others. There still may be others!

 

[gollum]

Of course those are not the only possibilities (not saying you made that claim). (2) doesn't have to be limited to who he got them from or whence they came. How he got them and who from could be 'anything'.

I would look at this from a different angle. Either A. they are from circa 1847 (if so what are they? by whom? ) or B. they are not (then, from where, when and why? by whom?)

After that things can diverge all over creation.

Why would there be only one set of maps to only one mine? If that is what they are.

If peraltas had a bunch of mines and this is a map to one, there should be other map sets around, unless this leads to the index of mine locations.

If the supposed location at Florence Junction was the drop site where they kept the map or maps why not a better spot? Some landmark, better hidden, easier to locate for the knowing?

I have studied the Stone Maps as much or more than anybody. I spent months investigating them and their trail from 1949 until present. There is a LOT that I know that I have posted. There is still a bit I found that I haven't made statements about. It has nothing to do with their authenticity, but rather possible solutions.

You are also falling into the trap set by many earlier folks that tied them in with the Peralta or Gonzalez Family. There is absolutely NOTHING concrete that ties them to either of those families. Also, I don't think that they have anything at all to do with the LDM. CHLSBRNS and I do agree on one thing: They have to do with hidden caches not mines. CHLSBRNS, maybe if you visited the area, you might understand that there are no caches there. Actually though, you are basically thinking like Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Uncle). It was his theory that there were caches near the beginning of the 18 point trail, not in the mountains. To be honest, the next time I visited the area after Jim sent me that map, I wandered around the area with one of my Fisher Gemini Two-Box Detectors. HAHAHA NADA!


Mike

 

[txtea]

Quote: "Planting near or in water, close to a road in a desert would be a good place to put something if you wanted them to be found"

Maybe so, but not an important map made of sandstone. Correct me if i'm wrong, as I have only visited the area and don't live there, but how often, and how severe does Queen Creek flood? I doubt that anyone would deliberately bury these sandstone tablets near a creek that could flood and ruin or alter them to the point of being unreadable. I imagine the water table and possibly the creek's route were different back then. I know the location sits up aways from the creek on a small bluff, but is it far enough away from the creek to insure this won't happen?

 

[gollum]

If I haven't learned anything else from my years researching the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Stone Maps, I have learned that whenever someone thinks they have a new take on either, or they have come up with a new idea. If you look long and hard enough, you will find that someone else has had that exact same idea before! HAHAHA

The difference in your outcome versus someone else's that had the same idea as you is ALL in the execution! Lots and lots of armchair treasure hunters that know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are the ones with the correct interpretation of the stones, or one of the many maps. Nothing will convince them otherwise. Yet every time one of them actually does put boots on the ground, they find someone else's footprints on the spot they figured out. BlindBowman was a perfect example. He found the LDM via Google Earth. Everybody told him he was nuts. He argued over and over that he was right. Everybody that knew the area he posted about knew that Chuck Crawford had claims there a looooong time ago. When BB finally showed up and hiked to his spot, he found he was wrong. He admitted as much and ate a good chunk of Humble Pie.

There are a lot of people that have spent a lot of years searching for and researching this subject.

Mike

 

[sgtfda]

Frank,

The black and white map was hand marked by Travis Tumlinson in about 1956 for his uncle Robert.

The old 60 can be seen from the new 60. I have been to the spot. The old pavement is just on the North side of the ditch. Charlie Miller (friends with Travis Tumlinson) showed Al Reser the spot where Tumlinson told him he found the stones. Al Reser went to the spot and found The Latin Heart after some digging around. Reser and Jim Hatt were good friends. One of the things Jim sent me before he passed away was a map of the area with the spot marked.

Mike

Mike I'm talking about OLD 60 totally different rd.