Stone Tablets-Most likely planted fakes.

[coazon de oro]

Strange that he should say that because in this post he mentions that Charlie Miller was the original finder.

Howdy deducer, and Mike,

Jim Hatt's email to Mike was in 06 when he believed Mr. Hidden was the original finder of the Latin Heart. On Nov. of 09, in the first post on the Latin Heart on DUSA, Jim states that he had been in error, and put up an email of the person who set him straight. So it was Charlie Miller.

Homar

 

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[chlsbrns]

The so called peralta stone dated in the mid 1800's are believed to be made by Jesuit's? What do you make of this:


"FRANCISCANS IN ARIZONA.
On the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767, all mission property, being regarded as belonging to the Jesuits and not to the natives, was confiscated by the Spanish government, and its care was intrusted temporarily to royal comisarios."

". The coming of a new order of missionaries to take the place of the Jesuits, the natural desire of the friars to do something more than simply fill the places of their predecessors, their success on the coast in effecting the spiritual conquest of Alta California, and above all the indefatigable zeal of Father Francisco Gareds, the Kino of the Franciscans, caused renewed interest to be felt in the northern interior, in the conversion of the Gila tribes, and of the apostate Moquis. The result was a series of somewhat extensive explorations which must be recorded here, but with comparative brevity, because they were for the most part but reexplorations, and because, in certain phases, they are presented elsewhere in this series of works."

The Franciscans took over in 1767 when the Jesuits were expelled. The priest on the stones looks more like a Franciscan Friar than a Jesuit. Franciscan robes had pointy hood, others wore wide brim hats.

 

[deducer]

I just searched and found the answer. We were both wrong! HAHAHA Bill Hidden was original finder of the Latin Heart. Here is the response email Jim sent me back in 2006:



Mike

Howdy deducer, and Mike,

Jim Hatt's email to Mike was in 06 when he believed Mr. Hidden was the original finder of the Latin Heart. On Nov. of 09, in the first post on the Latin Heart on DUSA, Jim states that he had been in error, and put up an email of the person who set him straight. So it was Charlie Miller.

Homar

Mike and Homar,

Mystery solved. Check out this post.

I had a meeting with an individual last Tuesday afternoon that knew Bill Hidden, and worked closely with him during the last year of his life. In my article about the stone maps I identified Bill Hidden as the man I thought Al Reser told me had found the Latin Heart. I was in error!

When Al and I had that conversation, it was about two hours long. Al did not like people taking notes when he was talking and it was difficult to get him to talk in front of a recorder. I had to drive all the way from Apache Junction back to Tempe, where I was living at that time, before I could make a written record of the things Al had told me.

So nobody is at fault here, since Jim couldn't really take notes in front of Al.

 

[Azquester]

I'll just leave this here:

Apophenia: "The experience of perceiving patterns or connections in random or meaningless data."

Apophenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/

Well, you could leave it there, with Wikipedia or, give him the chance to post images that show the earth was tooled. If that were found, then he has something historically important. I don't agree with him, with what he believes he sees, but it's a possibility. A small one. Proof in the form of tool marks. That's what it would take to convince me. Joe Schmo.

If those are not found then you were unfortunately correct.
Which sucks.

Found

I also have photo's of third mountain range that has the Rock tool marks of Spanish Free Mason's. I don't have the ability to photograph with my telescope the same rubble piles on the Catalina Range so other than hiking up there you'll have to come down here for a Steak Dinner and look through telescope to see for yourself!

You could pass over the top of one of these rubble piles thinking all along it was natural but upon closer inspection some the drill holes look ancient or "Antiqued" but looking at the rubble piles I posted you can see most rocks have no marks what so ever. They were very clever at hiding their work! Your looking at the Catalina mountains and Montezuma's head south of Phoenix. I found these same tooling marks in another range towards Sonora, AZ which I'm trying to dig up for posting. I can take anyone that wants to see in person right to these spots if you would like to touch it and see for yourself. I believe they were attacked by Indians before they could finish hiding their work so we have a peek at a true Free Mason's way of sculpting stone.

Other ways would be fire for cracking rock faces. Heat up rock and dump cold urine on it instant crack and fall!

Those large holes people think are from Indians grinding corn?

The larger the outcrop to be split the larger the drill holes along the seam for splitting the cliff face.


Bill

 

[UncleMatt]

That method of stone splitting is not limited to "Free Masons", I have used it myself on the farm to break stones too large to move in one piece, and belong to no such organization. Here is the kind of thing I usually use: 4-3/4"x1/2" Stone Splitting Wedge - BL389 - Tools Carving Chisels - Mansion Tools

 

[Hal Croves]

Found

I also have photo's of third mountain range that has the Rock tool marks of Spanish Free Mason's. I don't have the ability to photograph with my telescope the same rubble piles on the Catalina Range so other than hiking up there you'll have to come down here for a Steak Dinner and look through telescope to see for yourself!

You could pass over the top of one of these rubble piles thinking all along it was natural but upon closer inspection some the drill holes look ancient or "Antiqued" but looking at the rubble piles I posted you can see most rocks have no marks what so ever. They were very clever at hiding their work! Your looking at the Catalina mountains and Montezuma's head south of Phoenix. I found these same tooling marks in another range towards Sonora, AZ which I'm trying to dig up for posting. I can take anyone that wants to see in person right to these spots if you would like to touch it and see for yourself. I believe they were attacked by Indians before they could finish hiding their work so we have a peek at a true Free Mason's way of sculpting stone.

Other ways would be fire for cracking rock faces. Heat up rock and dump cold urine on it instant crack and fall!

Those large holes people think are from Indians grinding corn?

The larger the outcrop to be split the larger the drill holes along the seam for splitting the cliff face.


Bill

Bill,
Spanish Freemasonry is something that I have researched. It's fascinating to read about Masonry and it's influence on history but it's also a bit sad in my opinion. Spanish Masonry inherited the secrets of the Aztec Priests, who passed along an earlier knowledge. When Mexico won its independence form Spain, it became Mexican Freemasonry and if you were anyone, you were a Mason belonging to a lodge. Masonry it can be argued, was the only entity strong enough to break the Church's cruel grip on the Mexican people. It was also used to take away a huge swath of land from the Mexican people so that the American goal of manifest destiny could be realized.

The Spanish Masons, almost entirely composed of soldiers and wealthy buisnessmen and perhaps a few clergy, had the means, the money, and the expertise to create this huge earthworks. But it still remains to be seen that they ever created something so abstract on such a large scale. Time being money.

I hope that you are correct in your belief because it's a great story to write about and it is part of history. But documented proof is what you will need.

 

[chlsbrns]

All are quotes from a book on the history of arizona. The misspelling is due to text recognition software that converted the images.

Not only were the jesuits expelled before the dates shown on the peralta stones the Spaniard's were also expelled.

Doesnt seem that Jesuit's could have anything to do with the so called peralta stones.

Exactly how long
they had been abandoned after the revolt of 1750 is
not known; but in 17G3 Padre Alonso Espinosa was
in charge of Bac, as he was still at the time of the
Jesuit expulsion of 1767.


Respecting the expulsion of
the Jesuits in 1767, nothing is known except the
names of the three padres, Espinosa, Diez, and Bar-
rera. The whole number of Arizona neophytes in
1764-7 seems to have been only about 1,250


Officers intrusted with the expulsion of the Jesuits,
in order to reconcile the Indians to the change and prevent disturbances, had
taken pains to make them regard the measure as a release from bondage.


The order of expulsion against Spaniards probably
caused the departure of some of the friars in 1827-8,
the management of the temporalities was taken away
from them, and some of the establishments — including
all in Arizona — were abandoned.


Mexican rulet see chap. xiv. 1S22. X. M.x. becomes a Mexican province.
1824, a territory of the Mux. republic; beginning of the legal Sta i'i trade.
1828, expulsion of Spaniards and partial secularization of missions; discover}'
of the gold placers.


The
missions showed a constant decline, which was not
materially affected by the expulsion of the Jesuits and
substitution of the Franciscans in 1767


1828. Armijo, Vizcarra, and Chavez, gov. Under the Mex. law expelling
Spaniards, according to Prince, all the friars were forced to depart, except
two, Albino and Castro, who, by reason of their extreme age, and by the
payment of $500 each, were permitted to remain.


The order of expulsion against Spaniards probably
caused the departure of some of the friars in 1827-8

Did the Jesuit's return at a later date?

 

[chlsbrns]

1698 jesuit map

 

[Azquester]

nondisclosure agreement -- also called an NDA or a confidentiality agreement

Bill,
Spanish Freemasonry is something that I have researched. It's fascinating to read about Masonry and it's influence on history but it's also a bit sad in my opinion. Spanish Masonry inherited the secrets of the Aztec Priests, who passed along an earlier knowledge. When Mexico won its independence form Spain, it be came Mexican Freemasonry and if you were anyone, you were a Mason belonging to a lodge. Masonry it can be argued, was the only entity strong enough to break the Church's cruel grip on the Mexican people. It was also used to take away a huge swath of land from the Mexican people so that the American goal of manifest destiny could be realized.

The Spanish Masons, almost entirely composed of soldiers and wealthy buisnessmen and perhaps a few clergy, had the means, the money, and the expertise to create this huge earthworks. But it still remains to be seen that they ever created something so abstract on such a large scale. Time being money.

I hope that you are correct in your belief because it's a great story to write about and it is part of history. But documented proof is what you will need.

Come on Hal!

So first you say show me documentation which if I had I would then proof of tooling going on in the mountains around these shadow symbols and monuments, which I present on here, so now you say it needs to be Documented with the physical proof? OK I'm sure it's there as we all know all of history is well documented with pictures and graphs. Even before paper was invented.

Would you like some samples with certificate's that they're real drilled and split rocks? If your looking for documentation of Secret society that worked with the King's of Spain I'm sure there's many out there.

If you'd like to talk directly with the person that discovered those documents I can give you his phone number. Don't mention my name though I wouldn't sign his confidentiality agreement with non disclosure turning over all of my discoveries with locations so we parted ways. This person also uses my photo's in his training sessions for his team of Spanish Shipwreck Treasure Hunters with out my consent as he has no photo's of the system as good as I and has to use a computer just to see what I've trained myself to see without computers.

He has the documentation in his hands and if you want to join him by signing his Confidentiality Agreement pay him huge sums of money plus give him total control of your sites with your discoveries, go right ahead. After you sign it though we won't be able to talk anymore as you will be under a Non-Disclosure.

I'll see if I can dig up his number and let him tell you direct. Or we could both fly over to Spain? I could use a vacation!

I'll PM you the number and give you his name so act interested in joining his team and he will tell you all about the documents. Maybe even send you a copy. After that you can come on here and vindicate my information as being truthful.

Best,

Bill

PS: Yes, this system was used for the location and salvage of Shipwrecks on nearby islands first discovered when Treasure Hunters found non native rock formations on Islands that had no real rocks. They then went on a quest to find the documentation to support it and found it in Spain tucked away with some Religious Books I believe.

The system was that universal.
We are so small compared to those that did this.
It's humbling.

 

[Azquester]

View attachment 1126486

Do these match the present day Stones? look closely. I see two cracks in the heart stone and beveled edges of wear around the accompanying Map Stone. These are not the same stones seen today in the museum it's obvious.

 

[Hal Croves]

Come on Hal!

So first you say show me documentation which if I had I would then proof of tooling going on in the mountains around these shadow symbols and monuments, which I present on here, so now you say it needs to be Documented with the physical proof? OK I'm sure it's there as we all know all of history is well documented with pictures and graphs. Even before paper was invented.

Would you like some samples with certificate's that they're real drilled and split rocks? If your looking for documentation of Secret society that worked with the King's of Spain I'm sure there's many out there.

If you'd like to talk directly with the person that discovered those documents I can give you his phone number. Don't mention my name though I wouldn't sign his confidentiality agreement with non disclosure turning over all of my discoveries with locations so we parted ways. This person also uses my photo's in his training sessions for his team of Spanish Shipwreck Treasure Hunters with out my consent as he has no photo's of the system as good as I and has to use a computer just to see what I've trained myself to see without computers.

He has the documentation in his hands and if you want to join him by signing his Confidentiality Agreement pay him huge sums of money plus give him total control of your sites with your discoveries, go right ahead. After you sign it though we won't be able to talk anymore as you will be under a Non-Disclosure.

I'll see if I can dig up his number and let him tell you direct. Or we could both fly over to Spain? I could use a vacation!

I'll PM you the number and give you his name so act interested in joining his team and he will tell you all about the documents. Maybe even send you a copy. After that you can come on here and vindicate my information as being truthful.

Best,

Bill

PS: Yes, this system was used for the location and salvage of Shipwrecks on nearby islands first discovered when Treasure Hunters found non native rock formations on Islands that had no real rocks. They then went on a quest to find the documentation to support it and found it in Spain tucked away with some Religious Books I believe.

The system was that universal.
We are so small compared to those that did this.
It's humbling.

Bill,
Thats a long post. All I am asking for is photographic proof of tool marks on the earth, representing the scale of the work done. I have never seen it. I hope to see it and I believe that it could be physically accomplished but I am unconvinced. Such claims really should be supported with a logical presentation of proof. If that's important to you.

Share that and you will leave everyone impressed.

 

[Azquester]

I'm sorry,

Didn't the photo's I posted come through?
I thought they posted. I'll re-post them. Sorry we've got the conversation going on two subjects it started out the new show and we had a conversation going there and I'm mixing the two up my bad.

Originally Posted by Hal Croves
The outlines do help define what you think that you are seeing. The scale, the effort, the lack of proof, as in photographs of tools marks. It would be impossible to create this without leaving behind tool marks or signs of carved material. Do you have that proof? Seems close enough of a location to confirm your ideas which are possible. I don't think that they are probable.

From the distance you are viewing this shadow, I thought that an arrow shaped stone mound marker would be used? They were using optics then. Correct? If so, why go to so much trouble and expense to sculpt the earth? Their world was connected. Information and reports were sent home regularly on sailing ships. It returned the same way. Consistently. They had maps and could most defiantly find their way back to any location without these elaborate earth works.

Simplicity! A large stack of lighter stone placed high up on a mountain face to indicate direction. Something difficult to build yes, but requiring only minimal help. 2 or three men and a cartographer is all it would take. We are lazy beings.

I think that your theory would be helped along if you could show proof that people worked the area with tools.
And here's your smoking gun.

Oh and I had luck with me today. Got a Nugget!



Gold Bug2



These are from a different mountain range I hiked and these rocks are as big as a truck!

See how they split them on the seam. If you didn't know what to look for you would never notice the freemason work on these stones. All in Arizona from different ranges. I found three here's two I have the other ones somewhere. But you get the drift. With very little effort they could change huge rock faces and Canyons. Slip whole cliff faces and sculpt mountains! This is amazing stuff and it's ties right in I never put this with what I'd seen so now I know.




Bill

Last edited by Bob Collins; Yesterday at 09:43 PM.


PS: You should still call the number and leave a message for him to call you back Hal. I would like to see someone other than me hear about it and judge for themselves.

Edit Post Reply Reply With Quote ​

 

[Hal Croves]

I'm sorry,

Didn't the photo's I posted come through?
I thought they posted. I'll re-post them. Sorry we've got the conversation going on two subjects it started out the new show and we had a conversation going there and I'm mixing the two up my bad.

Originally Posted by Hal Croves
The outlines do help define what you think that you are seeing. The scale, the effort, the lack of proof, as in photographs of tools marks. It would be impossible to create this without leaving behind tool marks or signs of carved material. Do you have that proof? Seems close enough of a location to confirm your ideas which are possible. I don't think that they are probable.

From the distance you are viewing this shadow, I thought that an arrow shaped stone mound marker would be used? They were using optics then. Correct? If so, why go to so much trouble and expense to sculpt the earth? Their world was connected. Information and reports were sent home regularly on sailing ships. It returned the same way. Consistently. They had maps and could most defiantly find their way back to any location without these elaborate earth works.

Simplicity! A large stack of lighter stone placed high up on a mountain face to indicate direction. Something difficult to build yes, but requiring only minimal help. 2 or three men and a cartographer is all it would take. We are lazy beings.

I think that your theory would be helped along if you could show proof that people worked the area with tools.
And here's your smoking gun.

Oh and I had luck with me today. Got a Nugget!



Gold Bug2



These are from a different mountain range I hiked and these rocks are as big as a truck!

See how they split them on the seam. If you didn't know what to look for you would never notice the freemason work on these stones. All in Arizona from different ranges. I found three here's two I have the other ones somewhere. But you get the drift. With very little effort they could change huge rock faces and Canyons. Slip whole cliff faces and sculpt mountains! This is amazing stuff and it's ties right in I never put this with what I'd seen so now I know.




Bill

Last edited by Bob Collins; Yesterday at 09:43 PM.


PS: You should still call the number and leave a message for him to call you back Hal. I would like to see someone other than me hear about it and judge for themselves.

Edit Post Reply Reply With Quote ​

That's physical proof of tooling alright. Now, they just have to be put in proper context. Mapping the shadow lines to the tool marks examples. What are we seeing and where is it. Make sure that there is no other possible explanation for the work, roads, mines, utilities with a brief history of the site and you have a story. Incredible if correct.

 

[gollum]

View attachment 1126486

Do these match the present day Stones? look closely. I see two cracks in the heart stone and beveled edges of wear around the accompanying Map Stone. These are not the same stones seen today in the museum it's obvious.

Bill,

I have asked myself that question many times. I have stories that Clarence O Mitchell was having problems with his partners in MOEL, so he had a set of copies made, and gave two originals and two copies to Elgin Kriewald and kept two originals and two copies.

Here is something I did a while back. See for yourself:



Jim Hatt liked this, but he thought any differences could be explained by dirt still on the stones. I didn't agree 100%.

The two breaks in the heart insert are the same:



Mike

 

[Azquester]

I have another site that shows a whole mountain side covered with the same cut stones with no marks and incredible I just found a photo I took of the Supers with a whole
mountain of these cut stones! I'll Post it.

View attachment 1126512View attachment 1126513

History: Superstition Second Water Trail Old Dutchman Trail
Road's: Only one goes to second water
Mines: Probably Hidden Nearby
Work: Looking for GOLD!
Age of Drill holes: Modern Drills did not need to use these methods posted they had Dynamite!
Egyptians: Same Rock Splitting method used by the Egyptians and Romans, Greeks until the invention of Black Powder!

Age of work very old indeed.

 

[Azquester]

Nice Mike!

You can see some of the cut lines in the symbols don't match it's not dirt. The stones on display are not the real ones. That begs the Question: " Who has the real McCoys?"

 

[Hal Croves]

I have another site that shows a whole mountain side covered with the same cut stones with no marks and incredible I just found a photo I took of the Supers with a whole
mountain of these cut stones! I'll Post it.

View attachment 1126512View attachment 1126513

History: Superstition Second Water Trail Old Dutchman Trail
Road's: Only one goes to second water
Mines: Probably Hidden Nearby
Work: Looking for GOLD!
Age of Drill holes: Modern Drills did not need to use these methods posted they had Dynamite!
Egyptians: Same Rock Splitting method used by the Egyptians and Romans, Greeks until the invention of Black Powder!

Age of work very old indeed.

Its fascinating. I hope that it gets documented professionally.
Two concerns that I have are the relative brightness of the drill marks (they don't seem Egyptian old) and the fact the drill tool that you show is relatively new. 1700-1800's a guess? How do you explain this?

 

[chlsbrns]

More quotes from a historical book published late 1800's.

Below the quotes are screen shots showing a directory. M Peralta must have had a couple stores!


Another matter demanding brief mention here, as
pertaining to Arizona annals of the century, is the
Peralta grant of Gila lands. It is claimed that by
c^dula of December 20, 1748, the king, Fernando VI.,
in reward for services to the crown conferred on Don
Miguel Peralta de C6rdoba the title Baron de los
Colorados, and ordered the viceroy to grant him 300
leagues of land in the northern regions. On October
10, 1757, officials of the inquisition recommended the
grant, and certified on the testimony of Padre Paver
of Bac, of Padre Garcia, and of Bishop Tamaron, that
to the lands selected in Pimerfa Alta, the missions
had no conflicting claims. On Junuary 3, 1758, Vice-
roy Amarillas accordingly granted the tract north of
San Javier mission, including the Gila River, and ex-
tending ten leagues north and south by thirty leagues
east and west. In a document dated ' El Caudal de
Hidalgo, Pimerfa Alta/ May 13, 1758, Peralta, Ca-
ballero de los Colorados certifies that he has surveyed
the grant and formed the required map. The docu-
ments were recorded in the audiencia office at Gua-
dalajara, as shown by a certificate of June 23, 1768.
On August 1st of the same year, Peralta applied to
C&rlos III. for a confirmation granted by indorsement
December 2, 1772, and by a formal approval of Janu-
ary 22, 1776. By his will of 1788, Peralta bequeathed
the estate to his son Miguel Peralta, who in 1853, re-
siding at San Diego, California. , obtained from Presi-
dent Santa Anna a certified title, that is, copies of all
records in the case from the Mexican archives, with
the president's assurance of its validity and sufficiency.
From the younger . Peralta, the title passed in 1864 to

* l See chap. xii. of this volume.




PERALTA GRANT-MINES. 899

. George M. Willing, Jr, and from the latter in 1867
to James Addison Reavis, the present owner. 42 This
immense grant of over 2,000 square miles extends from
the region of the Pima villages eastward, for some
seventy-five miles up the Gila valley, including valu-
able portions of three counties. Respecting its va-
lidity, depending on the genuineness of the documents
and on various legal technicalities, I have of course no
opinion to express. In a sense the title is plausible
enough on its face; but it is somewhat remarkable
that the annals of the province, as recorded, contain no
allusion to Peralta, to the caballero de los Colorados,
or to the Caudal de Hidalgo.

Of mining operations in Arizona, during any portion
of the Spanish or Mexican period, nothing is practi-
cally or definitely known. The records are barely
sufficient to show that a few mines were worked, and
that the country was believed to be rich in silver and
gold. In several districts have been found traces of
these early workings; and these, with traditions aris-
ing from the Planchas de Plata find at Arizona proper
just south of the line, are for the most part
the only foundation for the many 'lost mines' of which much
has been vaguely written, and more said. I have al-
ready remarked that modern writers have greatly
exaggerated the country's former prosperity in mining
and other industries, and it may be added that they
have as a rule given the wrong date to such prosperity

"Reavis, 'El Caudal de Ifidalgo' (Peralta Grant), Before U. 8. Surveyor-
general of Arizona, etc Brief and argument of petitioner. S. F., 1884. Mr
Reavis has also shown me his MS. documents in the case, including photo-
graphic copies of the original papers, disefio, etc., from the Mez. archives,
furnished by authority of the governor of Jalisco and a Guadalajara court in
1881 and 1883; also photographs of doc. from the archives of S. Javier del Bac.
According to the original survey of 1758, the initial point or centre of the west-
ern boundary line was fixed in the current of the Gila, the line extending
thence south by the base of the Maricopa mountain on the east of the Sierra
Estrella, bearing to the west of the Sta Cruz valley, a distance of 5 leagues to
a point in the south boundary line; and from the same initial point north,
across the Gila and Salt rivers, 5 1. north to a point in the north boundary
line. I understand Mr B. to say that artificial corner marks have also been
found.

 

[Azquester]

Like I just informed Tropical. Look closer. You can see some drill holes are in the process of being erased and look extremely old. This is not only Drill work but art as well. The Drill Holes were made by hand. How would I know this?

Look at the inconsistent holes that are triangle in shape these holes were drilled only by hand! Why would anyone at all attempt to hide the fact the cuttings and holes were ever there? These area's have something in common Two of them are old prospect sites and the other is no where near mines. All the cuttings in the photo's are near a small Spanish rock foundation like so many I've found near old Spanish Workings. A small rock weigh station for the Gold being shipped back to Spain. Each rock house has no foundation and was dismantled after use. These spots have roads nearby but no where near the cuttings. In the case of Montezuma's Head it's huge boulders cut for no apparent reason other than maybe a teaching tool. The others are into the bed rock with cuttings spread out below making it look natural and are near an old, old mining prospects.

All three have stone foundations with no floors in small square houses.

I've had the rocks looked at. One Geologist put them around 1500- 1650 range after seeing the older looking drill holes that are almost weathered away.

Now that's just the cuttings from the first site I haven't had the others looked at. Even at the 1700-1800 range it was the West Indies and wild.

 

[Azquester]

Here's a Google Earth Map of one area. Notice the size of those Boulders!

View attachment 1126582