Stone Tablet Symbols?

[the blindbowman]

today i had to parts of two pictures blown up to a larger size for two of the pics taken on expedition 2 .. we are still working with those pictures 10 months latter and i see more work to be done , ...there is no free rides in life if you want to win you must put in everything you can heart and soul into your search ...forget about the human world and let your sense track the gost of time and space . histroy becomes my world of reality and there is no here and now ... for i live in the back then ....


we have a list and each site gets its spot light like beeds of a rosey...each has a meaning or it would not be on our list to start with ...

this game plays from two diffrent dirrections the expedition building speed and growing faster and faster and the histroy and past of those sites fighting to get to the surface only for the two to meet in the days of the expedition 3 ..

focus ,planing ,learning , teaching our selfs what we must know .. and always more learning , histroy is forever teaching if you are willing to learn ...

 

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[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

<snip>...that no one has ever seen a marking like that on a Spanish ingot.

Greetings Joe,

I do believe you about the gold bars - to me, learning the origins of them is quite a large question that is not easily answered. Even if we had photos of the marks (in a pattern of a crown) I don't recall ever seeing a maker's mark on a metal ingot quite like that. This does not mean the mark is wrong - only that I am no expert on makers' marks. If the bars were cast by an assayer, silversmith, jeweler etc there are literally dozens and dozens (I would say hundreds as I think that is the case but could be wrong) with many variations which were used to indicate various years, various offices, even different workers.

I also find it interesting the way you worded that post - as in no Spanish ingot - which brings some interesting alternative possibilities to mind. We know from our history books that Mexico was once ruled (relatively briefly) by a French-installed emperor, Maximilian (actually Austrian by birth, of the Hapsburg royal family) and this violent part of Mexico's history includes TWO huge lost treasures. The first, is the treasury which was evacuated by President Juarez from Mexico City as the French troops approached in 1863 and apparently vanished. The second treasure was again the national treasury, removed from the capital on orders of Emperor Maximilian in 1867, and disappeared from history. What were the imperial marks used by Maximilian? I don't know even where to look to find out. Could the gold bars found by LaFrance have been the lost treasury of Emperor Maximilian?

The design being a crown probably was a mark intending to designate ownership and possibly purity, but does not automatically mean it was owned by royalty - the makers' marks used by some jewelers, silversmiths etc were often designs which would hint at royalty. It would be interesting to learn more about the origins and story of just how those bars ended up in a cave in such a remote and inhospitable region.

If you ever are able to find out where they came from Joe, I hope you will keep us posted.

Greetings Blindbowman,

I take it that you are already planning your next expedition? All the 'homework' you can do from home will help save time for when you are in the field. I hope that you will keep us posted too.

Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity,
I would like to see the mark as best as it could be reproduced.

I have seen several different ones.
It would be really cool to add a new one to watch for.

OD

 

[cactusjumper]

OD,

This is approximatly what the marks on the gold bar looked like. The lines were faint but visable. The following is a description of the bars, given by Tracy Hawkins on the LDM Forum:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tracy L Hawkins
Part Timer


Joined: 09 Oct 2002
Posts: 67
Location: Phoenix Az
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:17 am Post subject: bars of gold

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SC
in answer to your questions----The bar Harry France had , I personally held in my hands and examined--Doc LaVave ran a spectrograph on it and determained it was 86& gold with silver and lead. This bar was apx 3inches wide, 3/4 inch rhick and about 5 inches long ---very rough cast in what appeared to be a stone mold ---the top serface was rough and had a black film over it ----in the upper left corner was 5 dots and a groupe of faint lines that had been pressed into it forming a faint outline of a crown --THIS SAME MARK WAS ON THE BARS b BRADY HAD . ( as I said , I never saw Bradys bars personally but saw the pictures.)
To the best of my knowledge the pictures were distroyed in a fire in New River.
TLH

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Cactusjumper wrote:

<snip>...that no one has ever seen a marking like that on a Spanish ingot.

Greetings Joe,

I do believe you about the gold bars - to me, learning the origins of them is quite a large question that is not easily answered. Even if we had photos of the marks (in a pattern of a crown) I don't recall ever seeing a maker's mark on a metal ingot quite like that. This does not mean the mark is wrong - only that I am no expert on makers' marks. If the bars were cast by an assayer, silversmith, jeweler etc there are literally dozens and dozens (I would say hundreds as I think that is the case but could be wrong) with many variations which were used to indicate various years, various offices, even different workers.

I also find it interesting the way you worded that post - as in no Spanish ingot - which brings some interesting alternative possibilities to mind. We know from our history books that Mexico was once ruled (relatively briefly) by a French-installed emperor, Maximilian (actually Austrian by birth, of the Hapsburg royal family) and this violent part of Mexico's history includes TWO huge lost treasures. The first, is the treasury which was evacuated by President Juarez from Mexico City as the French troops approached in 1863 and apparently vanished. The second treasure was again the national treasury, removed from the capital on orders of Emperor Maximilian in 1867, and disappeared from history. What were the imperial marks used by Maximilian? I don't know even where to look to find out. Could the gold bars found by LaFrance have been the lost treasury of Emperor Maximilian?

The design being a crown probably was a mark intending to designate ownership and possibly purity, but does not automatically mean it was owned by royalty - the makers' marks used by some jewelers, silversmiths etc were often designs which would hint at royalty. It would be interesting to learn more about the origins and story of just how those bars ended up in a cave in such a remote and inhospitable region.

If you ever are able to find out where they came from Joe, I hope you will keep us posted.

Greetings Blindbowman,

I take it that you are already planning your next expedition? All the 'homework' you can do from home will help save time for when you are in the field. I hope that you will keep us posted too.

Oroblanco

Interesting ideas Oro. I too noticed right away the very specific wording CJ used - sounds like he has a theory too .

 

[Old Dog]

Thanks much Joe, Ill keep my eyes open for it.

I do get to observe bars of different kinds from time to time, I'll take photos and let you know as well what is on them. sometimes the marks are more wide spread than we think. the closed mouth syndrome has a tendancy to create a closed area idea.

Thom

 

[the blindbowman]

OD,

This is approximatly what the marks on the gold bar looked like. The lines were faint but visable. The following is a description of the bars, given by Tracy Hawkins on the LDM Forum:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tracy L Hawkins
Part Timer


Joined: 09 Oct 2002
Posts: 67
Location: Phoenix Az
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:17 am Post subject: bars of gold

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SC
in answer to your questions----The bar Harry France had , I personally held in my hands and examined--Doc LaVave ran a spectrograph on it and determained it was 86& gold with silver and lead. This bar was apx 3inches wide, 3/4 inch rhick and about 5 inches long ---very rough cast in what appeared to be a stone mold ---the top serface was rough and had a black film over it ----in the upper left corner was 5 dots and a groupe of faint lines that had been pressed into it forming a faint outline of a crown --THIS SAME MARK WAS ON THE BARS b BRADY HAD . ( as I said , I never saw Bradys bars personally but saw the pictures.)
To the best of my knowledge the pictures were distroyed in a fire in New River.
TLH

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Joe

that is a mathamatical equation ,i knew what it means the secound i saw it ..translation ( 3 are missing , one big, two small , two togather that meet in the same place or touch , one seprated form the other two smaller ones ) it may be referng to the vents i found , it to is matched to the same mathamatical equaion that i decoded from the Ruth map and the stones ...mathamatically they are the same location , the odds of them being diffrent in this case woulf be imposable ....but note the mathamatical imposablity comes from the meaning of the simbolics . the big value mising can be in any configuration to the other two values . out of the 3 mising values two must meet . it dose not say the two smaller values must be the two that meet., in fact it says just what i stated it dose ,,, 3 are missing . two touch one is by its self two ae smaller and one is bigger then the other two ...it even could be read the two smaller values are left and right of each other ...and the biger value dose not stand between them thus it must be above or below them .. thus as i stated this mathamatical equation is the same as the vents i found ...ask a math teacher he will tell you the same thing , its posable ....

 

[Cubfan64]

OD,

This is approximatly what the marks on the gold bar looked like. The lines were faint but visable. The following is a description of the bars, given by Tracy Hawkins on the LDM Forum:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tracy L Hawkins
Part Timer


Joined: 09 Oct 2002
Posts: 67
Location: Phoenix Az
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:17 am Post subject: bars of gold

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SC
in answer to your questions----The bar Harry France had , I personally held in my hands and examined--Doc LaVave ran a spectrograph on it and determained it was 86& gold with silver and lead. This bar was apx 3inches wide, 3/4 inch rhick and about 5 inches long ---very rough cast in what appeared to be a stone mold ---the top serface was rough and had a black film over it ----in the upper left corner was 5 dots and a groupe of faint lines that had been pressed into it forming a faint outline of a crown --THIS SAME MARK WAS ON THE BARS b BRADY HAD . ( as I said , I never saw Bradys bars personally but saw the pictures.)
To the best of my knowledge the pictures were distroyed in a fire in New River.
TLH

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Joe

that is a mathamatical equation ,i knew what it means the secound i saw it ..translation ( 3 are missing , one big, two small , two togather that meet in the same place or touch , one seprated form the other two smaller ones ) it may be referng to the vents i found , it to is matched to the same mathamatical equaion that i decoded from the Ruth map and the stones ...mathamatically they are the same location , the odds of them being diffrent in this case woulf be imposable ....but note the mathamatical imposablity comes from the meaning of the simbolics . the big value mising can be in any configuration to the other two values . out of the 3 mising values two must meet . it dose not say the two smaller values must be the two that meet., in fact it says just what i stated it dose ,,, 3 are missing . two touch one is by its self two ae smaller and one is bigger then the other two ...it even could be read the two smaller values are left and right of each other ...and the biger value dose not stand between them thus it must be above or below them .. thus as i stated this mathamatical equation is the same as the vents i found ...ask a math teacher he will tell you the same thing , its posable ....

BB - I guess I'm just ignorant, because I don't follow your interpretation of the drawing of the dots and lines from CJ's post which is what was imprinted on gold bars supposedly found by LaFrance in a cave.

Specifically, where do you get the "1 is big, 2 are small" from that drawing? I'm pretty decent with calculus, algebra and geometry, but I just don't see what you're seeing. Can you be more specific?

 

[the blindbowman]

in fact one of the best known at this type of mathamatics was the Templars ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Let us assume that you are correct Blindbowman, in that the maker's marks (or assayers marks) found on LaFrance's gold bar is some kind of geometric code. This seems a mite illogical to me, for most precious metal ingots are marked by the makers and/or owners and/or assayers, with no hidden codes (other than a year, the purity, weight, person doing the assay etc) in their marks but it is not impossible so...

To what purpose would someone put such a code (geometric in design, mathematical in nature) on a gold bar?

What could the code possibly mean or indicate?

Why use a geometric (numerical) code?

Seems that at every turn we find yet more questions, no matter how many answers we find they only lead to still more questions!

Blindbowman wrote:

<snip>..one of the best known at this type of mathamatics was the Templars ..

Agreed that the Templars were good at mathematics, but so were the Moors, the Hindus, Buddhists and many others. I would hesitate to make the connection to the Templars, not at this stage anyway. We don't even know what time period the gold bar was made, much less who/whom.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan,

I admire your trying to carry on a conversation with bb and make some sense of what he says. A few people on this site have attempted to do the same thing and eventually had to throw up their hands in defeat. One person even deleted all his posts and, pretty much, left the building.

From what you have quoted, I assume we are supposed to believe that two caves full of gold bars were carved, each and every one, with the same "code". I guess that was to make sure no one missed it after looking at the first 100 or so bars.

I wonder if the "code" has any connection to the 5-gallon glass jugs full of nitroglycerin. The direct connection seems obvious with a second look. Five dots, five lines and five-gallon bottles of nitroglycerin.

See you this weekend.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

see i can take some of the BS some of the time but . in some cases i would rather just prove there is a chance i am right . thats all i need do ... ...

in this case i beleive mell when he found the atocha , found silver from the 18 mines , marked with one of 18 simbolics , one was a (R) , one was a (M) . one was a (TA) wich i believe stood for tayopa , one was (P) .... and some bars were marked with a group maker simbolic .

we dont know if the bars were found if they were gold or silver or if there were more or less ...or where the mines were ... i got damn ood idea . if i could have got to the gathering , i could have proven it ... ...good things come to those that wait for the right timeing ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Well that actually helps in establishing a time period, in theory at least - for nitroglycerin was invented in 1846, so pretty well rules out the Templars (unless they had the secret for making it) and we know that dynamite was invented in 1867 and very rapidly replaced straight liquid nitroglycerin in most uses due to being much safer to work with etc - it seems logical to place a time period being not before 1846 and probably not much after 1867.

I too have trouble sometimes following the posts of Blindbowman, I think he is a bit of the poet and sees things quite differently than most of us here do. I don't think he is trying to be obscure deliberately, just that he sees things in a different light than many of us. Of course I don't make much sense sometimes either so can't afford to be throwing stones!

Consarn it but now if this time line (>1846-1867<) is correct, and we take into consideration the location (a wilderness in southern Arizona) and what was happening at the time, what can we make of it?

Mexican-American war: 1846-1848

War with Yuma Indians: 1850-1857 (in Arizona)

War with Navajo Indians: 1859-1864 (Arizona)

The Revolution of Ayutla 1855 (in Mexico)

The War of Reform 1857 - 1861 (Mexico)

French Intervention in Mexico: 1862-1867 (when TWO huge treasures vanished)

War with Hualapai Indians 1865-1868 (Arizona)

War with Apaches (about) 1857-1886 (Arizona)

Now we have those two famous and huge treasures, in both cases the national treasury of Mexico (quite a sizable sum) which both disappeared, and are both within the time period when the use of nitroglycerin would be likely (and not simple blackpowder or dynamite). Hmmm....!!!!

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

look at the R .. it shows up on the peralta stones and on these bars . i beleive it is mine we found at spainish mt . remember i told you about the rough made molds we seen laying near the standing stone wall . those bars are the same siz and shape as those molds... see i saw a big letter K near that mine and i believe it was in fact a letter R ....

if i am right the code it self tells us who made them where and when , ( TA, yo, R, M ,Pa ,Ma ,ES,OP, Si ,O, A ) .... if i can find the rest of the code i will figer it out ...i beleive this could explan why some of the names like Tayopa were spelled diffrent at times

i beleive i know where 7 of these mines are .....

you can not trust the dates . the gold or silver bars could have been found and then who ever found them could have tryed to move them . like in the case of the Atocha ....

you stated why would some do what i said they did .. look at these bars and ask me that question again ....

the R is one mine and its bars hav just a R on them . yet see the R shows up in the group markings ...

 

[the blindbowman]

no that only means hwho put the jars there put them there when they found it .. it dose not mean the mines were not much older then any of us knew ...

 

[the blindbowman]

Well that actually helps in establishing a time period, in theory at least - for nitroglycerin was invented in 1846, so pretty well rules out the Templars (unless they had the secret for making it) and we know that dynamite was invented in 1867 and very rapidly replaced straight liquid nitroglycerin in most uses due to being much safer to work with etc - it seems logical to place a time period being not before 1846 and probably not much after 1867.

I too have trouble sometimes following the posts of Blindbowman, I think he is a bit of the poet and sees things quite differently than most of us here do. I don't think he is trying to be obscure deliberately, just that he sees things in a different light than many of us. Of course I don't make much sense sometimes either so can't afford to be throwing stones!

Consarn it but now if this time line (>1846-1867<) is correct, and we take into consideration the location (a wilderness in southern Arizona) and what was happening at the time, what can we make of it?

Mexican-American war: 1846-1848

War with Yuma Indians: 1850-1857 (in Arizona)

War with Navajo Indians: 1859-1864 (Arizona)

The Revolution of Ayutla 1855 (in Mexico)

The War of Reform 1857 - 1861 (Mexico)

French Intervention in Mexico: 1862-1867 (when TWO huge treasures vanished)

War with Hualapai Indians 1865-1868 (Arizona)

War with Apaches (about) 1857-1886 (Arizona)

Now we have those two famous and huge treasures, in both cases the national treasury of Mexico (quite a sizable sum) which both disappeared, and are both within the time period when the use of nitroglycerin would be likely (and not simple blackpowder or dynamite). Hmmm....!!!!

Oroblanco

lol Oro i got to ask you one question . why did you stated "simple blackpowder "

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman,

I am not confident in connecting Tayopa with anything in the Superstitions, for the location simply will not fit with pretty much all of the records of Tayopa. On the other hand, there are at least three locations that were known as Tayopa at one time or other, and while all are in Mexico and well south of the Superstitions (remember the Superstitions are over 100 miles from the modern border, and would have been very much in the wild distant frontier during the time period when Tayopa was being worked) so I suppose it is possible.

Thank you for posting the photos (I presume they are bars recovered from Atocha?) however I see something quite different in the marks on the bars - they look very much like old Spanish marks, denoting the year the bar was cast, the owners, the assayer etc, and in very Spanish style of lettering - plus the use of Roman numerals. Remember the bar LaFrance showed to others had ONLY that strange geometric mark, with nothing else!

Yes you are correct, even if the bars can be definitely dated to any specific time (like 1840s to 1860s) that does not mean that the mines which produced the gold are of the exact same time period. However it usually is fairly safe to make that leap of logic, that gold bars or silver bars cast in a specific time period, are made from fresh ores that came from mines that were contemporary with the casters of the bars - and not usually that the mines were of any great age difference. Can you think of a single case where gold or silver from a particular mine, that was cast into a bar many years after the mine existed? We can point to the loot of Montezuma or the Incas of course as examples or of the treasure of the Temple taken by the Romans, but in those cases the gold/silver was not in the form of ore from a mine but in objects that were melted down.

This does not rule out the possibility of a very ancient mine or group of mines, but I do not feel confident in making the assumption that it is true, in fact I feel more confident that the mine or mines are of far more recent age - less than 200 years. Without more evidence to prove the mine(s) are much older, I don't see a good reason to think they are older than the middle of the 1800s.

Good to see you again buddy! I think a couple of your posts have some folks confused - perhaps you could explain it better for them?

Blindbowman wrote:

<snip>ask you one question . why did you stated "simple blackpowder

I used that term as blackpowder was the most common explosive used in mining for many years, and compared with some of the other explosives it is "simple" in that almost anyone can manufacture it using the simplest of equipment. It is a good explosive, but dangerous (a spark can set it off) and has a strong tendency to absorb moisture and become useless, which is why so many miners switched to the more powerful and dangerous nitroglycerin and later dynamite.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

thew reseason is ask that question was for two diffrent related simbolics . frist look at the code M cj posted above . 5 lines +3 lines to solve it . 5+3=8 ... the word was never Tunnel , it was Tonel a portguese word for cask ... i beleive some one was lieing about where they were .


"In 1433 died King John, exhorting his son not to abandon those schemes which were now, in the long-continued failure to round Cape Bojador, ridiculed by many as costly absurdities; and in 1434 one of the prince's ships, commanded by Gil Eannes, at length doubled the cape. In 1435 Affonso Goncalvez Baldaya, the prince's cup-bearer, passed fifty leagues beyond; and before the close of 1436 the Portuguese had almost reached Cape Blanco."

note the 1435 date ... we are not seeing the cup-bearer 's markings . we are seeing the Navigator's markings ... he worte the book on brains ....and he could have very well made all of these maps and stones with his eyes closed ..he is marked by NA.. in the code . and yes he was a templar founder ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings mi amigo Blindbowman,

If we assume that the LaFrance gold is Templar, then we have a terrific anachronistic problem in the presence of nitroglycerin in the cave WITH the bars. Nitro was not invented prior to 1846, so.....?

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

the reason i stated that was because i believe i am decodeing the navigator work .... i dont think he was where they said he was and some king sent him to that area for a reason . these mines ... say he dresses up like this other captain and goes to these mines and everyone believe he is somewhere he isnt ....


in the same year of 1435 ...

i honestly believe the date i found on the stones is the real date .but i believe the mine was worked from a few years before 1307 to the 1435 by the templars , henry was in fact a templar , they had the powerd, they had the ships and the men .
they had the navigator who was smart enough to make the maps and stones and even if the stones were changed a little by others who found them threw the years this would explan a lot ...

maybe the words are spainish but the man writeing them wants us to believe that ...

what better way to seen then to be some one else .. a decoy...


early years of navigation few knew what he did ,... he knew mathamatics and was light years ahead of others ...

here is the man that made the stone ... the words were most likely added threw the years after ...