Status On TAYOPA

[Shortfinger]

So now you speak for me, and know my thoughts too Shortfinger? I am learning a lot about you. Good luck.

Oro, I never meant to speak for you, and, if you felt that I did, I humbly apologize. However, based on the many posts that you have made here on TNet, it is obvious that you feel that the location that Don Jose has, is NOT El Naranjal. If necessary, I’ll find some of them, but I’m sure that you remember them. So, as an experienced Treasure Hunter, why would you look for a lost mine in an area where you are sure it isn’t? That would be like looking for Tayopa in the Supes or the LDM in the Chocolates. I willingly left you the option of joining Don Jose in Tayopa, and I feel that you have earned the chance to be among the first to see that location. I urge you to take him up on that opportunity. Besides, going to Tayopa with you may keep him occupied until I get myself prepared for an expedition. Coffee?



JB

 

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[Shortfinger]

SF, Oro is an assoc. unwilling, but still one. We'll talk about this later I'll be 95 then. Sides I can't be sure that tts Naranjal other than it meets al particulars except for the state.


Search Naranjal in YN.

Don Jose, I am well aware of the close association that you have with Oro, and envy both of you for that. I was not suggesting that he not be included, and, in fact, I have urged him to take you up on the Tayopa trip that you suggested. I would never try to cut him out of any chance to see your legendary area, including, if he wants, to see the ruined hacienda with the orange trees and the pretty orange gold, which he has stated is NOT El Naranjal (I'm simplifying here, I will find the post if necessary, but that is how i remember it). I am convinced that what you have is very likely El Naranjal, since it does meet all of the particulars except for the supposed location. However, there are many who placed (and some who still do) Tayopa in Durango or some other location, which is simply not the case, so the supposed location is not as important as the rest of the details. Since you plan to live to 150, and you seem well on your way, I thought that 3 years was not going to be a problem with you. I only intend to make 100 myself, so I have to get cracking. You have 59 years left, I only have 34. Coffee for everyone?



JB

 

[Shortfinger]

One more thing: When I was a kid in New Mexico in 1959, I read my dad’s copies of “Coronado’s Children” and “Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver” The stories stayed in my mind, although very far back. Several years later, I found the books in my local library, and checked them out to read. I had completed “Coronado’s Children”, and had started on “Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver”. My family was on a trip to Washington state for Christmas 1995 when the fuel line burst on our motor home and it burned pretty much to the ground. I had just finished the chapter on “El Naranjal”, and the book was on the upper bunk in the motor home. It was consumed in the fire. I took this to mean that I was not supposed to go treasure hunting at that time, but, when I was meant to go, the treasure I was supposed to search for was El Naranjal……



JB

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Short finger, relax. Neither i, nor oro, took exception to your post.

 

[J.A.A.]

SF, Oro is an assoc. unwilling, but still one. We'll talk about this later I'll be 95 then. Sides I can't be sure that tts Naranjal other than it meets al particulars except for the state.


Search Naranjal in YN.

El Tropical tramp y Oro de Tayopa-
Whatever the association the two of you may have (and I'm jealous of whatever that is), should either of you ever need any help, boots on the ground that is, don't hesitate to ask!! I always read about those who need "help", but what they always seem to really mean is MONEY. I don't ever read about someone offering up ACTUAL help...the type meant to genuinely lend a helping, unselfish hand. Help based on a mutual passion, not greed. As it is, I can't say I have any coin to invest anyway (not that you're asking) and, even if I did, my wife wouldn't allow it.....at least without a "sit down" of divorce attorneys first!![emoji6]

However, what I do have is a young mans back and legs (18 years in residential construction), a love reading, history, and the piecing together of "puzzles" helped by an IQ high enough to apparently be in Mensa (at least so say existing members), and, more than anything else, a love of all things seemingly associated with the general "traits" for THunting- the past, the outdoors, and a search for the truth. Of course, I'm fully aware that there's much more to it than meets the eye. It's not all just fun and games, and I wouldn't want that anyhow. (Sorry if it sounds like I'm bragging- not my intentions.)

So, the (real) offer is out there. I believe I've got the basic "tools", not to mention the drive. Now I just need the experience. I'm not looking to be enriched...though, I'd be a liar if I said that making a buck ISN'T somewhere on the list of reasons....it just further down the list. If something should ever be found and, in turn, one might feel the need to flip a few pennies my way (simply for the return trip home), I (meaning my wife) would never complain.

Either way, as I said a few days ago in my quote on Fathers Day, to those who've actually done the deed, as well as those who haven't, I wish each of you all the health, happiness, and (golden) prosperity one desires. The true "cowboys" of this world are a dying breed. Problem is, once they're gone, so too is the knowledge and history they'll take with them. This is the part of "treasure hunting" I'd like to see passed on.

All the best-
Justin

 

[Shortfinger]

Short finger, relax. Neither i, nor oro, took exception to your post.

So, now you are speaking for Oro as well? Seriously, thank you for the clarification. I was pretty sure that was the case, but one can never be sure, so I thought I would err on the side of caution....

JB

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;
On El Naranjal - no worries, go for it. I seriously doubt it could be near Tayopa on a number of factors, the time period being one but when you have a rich gold or silver mine, does the name put on it make any difference? It sure doesn't to me.

Justin - muchas gracias for your kind offer, although now I am terribly disappointed that you are not offering to "invest" a few hundred thousand. Sheesh there went my whole retirement plan! Er, um I mean "financing"! <ha ha> I would not ask for money because the best con men never ask for money, they get the mark to ask the con man to take it! Just kidding but when anyone on a treasure forum starts fishing for "investors" it is always a red flag to me.

At the moment I have enough on my own plate in AZ, SD and CA, and that includes a planned trip to Sonora but that can't be for at least another year, need to have enough resources and a believable cover story. You don't want to go out poking around and let all the locals know you are a treasure hunter, so it helps if you pretend to be a hunter or bird watcher or hiker etc. Side thing here but they tend to not believe you are a bird watcher if you are packing a metal detector and don't have a pair of binoculars, just a tip for the future. I do recommend getting to know your partner(s) a bit before you head out too, some can be rather cantakerous in camp or worse, turn out to be not what they seemed. <NOT referring to you here Loke, in case you are reading this!>

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, you have serious DOUBTS?/ Sheesh Naranjal fits like a glove. It IS Naranjal State lines were a bit nebulous in those days in so far as lost mines are concerned. The road marker " Juana del Arco" is i nrthern Sinaloa, it is associated with Naranjal.

Not Narnjal humph. Tima factor ?

 

[J.A.A.]

Excellent and greatly appreciated points Oro. Never hurts to throw it out there. When I was younger, it seemed the adventures never stopped. I was always out exploring, whether it be northern Michigan or the western side of Maine where we vacationed every summer. Now, I guess maybe I'm just missing those days.

Side thingy I've been meaning to bring up. It's kinda on topic with what I just mentioned, though maybe I should bring it up on a new thread:

Back when I was about 15 or 16 years old and we were vacationing in Maine for the summer (Rangeley Lake area, Oquossoc to be exact), I came across something deep within the woods, near the bottom of Bald Mountain that I found rather strange (not far from L.L. Bean's corporate camp). This "thing" was cylindrical and made of metal. I kicked it around a bit but it must have been buried pretty deep...I figured this based on the fact that, even kicking at it with my size 11 steel toes, it didn't budge one bit.....Not one single 1/4" of movement. It was definitely packed deep within the ground.

A couple years later, I saw a picture in an aviation magazine and realized what exactly it had been: the circular piece (not sure of name, please help Mr. Pilot Don Jose) that a planes propellers (the actual blades) attach to on the front! Could it be called the Rotor, or a variation of that name? The part I could not fathom was why in the h$&@ there would be a plane buried in the Maine woods, much closer to the border of New Hampshire than the eastern coast. Crazier still; how would it end up buried what had to have been tail DOWN, within many years worth of leaves, branches, etc. since this "rotor" was pointing almost straight up out of the ground?!

Then, a few years after that, I saw a program (forgot the name) that discussed whether or not Charles Lindbergh was actually the first to fly nonstop across the Atlantic. The show talked about 2 men (again, forgot the details- Frenchman maybe??) who set out roughly a month or two before Lindbergh but were never heard from again. Some "witnesses" spoke of seeing a single engine craft matching the description of the one used by these men and that it supposedly was well within the border of Maine, far from the coast........

Do you suppose? Could it be?!

Unfortunately, even if I went back there today, just like anything else lost to time, I'd never find the exact spot again. How crazy would that be though? And how pissed would the (American) scholars be if it turned out that someone other than our "hometown" hero Charles Lindbergh was actually the first to fly the Atlantic nonstop??!

I know this isn't Tayopa related; just thought I'd share.

All the best-
J.A.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, you have serious DOUBTS?/ Sheesh Naranjal fits like a glove. It IS Naranjal State lines were a bit nebulous in those days in so far as lost mines are concerned. The road marker " Juana del Arco" is i nrthern Sinaloa, it is associated with Naranjal.

Not Narnjal humph. Tima factor ?

Fits like a glove? How about more like 'shoe fitting' the story to your site? Is it also the lost Adams too? So where is Juana del Arco mine that is the only mine near El Naranjal, it should be very close by? How about the orchard and Rancheria too? On the time factor, when was Tayopa actually being worked, and then compare that to when Naranjal was being actively worked, there is rather a LOT of time in between there.

Justin - I have heard of that about the two French airmen and that they were seen flying over Maine but vanished. As far as I know, no one has ever found any kind of remains. You just might have found their plane, and possibly the men too. The two French aviators were named Charles Nungesser and Francois Coli, Nungesser had been an air ace in WW 1 if memory serves. If you could get in the same general area, a systematic search might turn up something of that plane and the men. That is pretty strange, and cool too!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro. ya forgetting that the Tayopa complex was reopened, so the dates could be correct. Tayopa itself no, but the complex yes.

 

[Shortfinger]

Fits like a glove? How about more like 'shoe fitting' the story to your site? Is it also the lost Adams too? So where is Juana del Arco mine that is the only mine near El Naranjal, it should be very close by? How about the orchard and Rancheria too? On the time factor, when was Tayopa actually being worked, and then compare that to when Naranjal was being actively worked, there is rather a LOT of time in between there.

Justin - I have heard of that about the two French airmen and that they were seen flying over Maine but vanished. As far as I know, no one has ever found any kind of remains. You just might have found their plane, and possibly the men too. The two French aviators were named Charles Nungesser and Francois Coli, Nungesser had been an air ace in WW 1 if memory serves. If you could get in the same general area, a systematic search might turn up something of that plane and the men. That is pretty strange, and cool too!

Well, Oro. As is quite common here on TNet, I’m going to have to agree to disagree with your analysis. I’m sure that Don Jose will have some input as well, but here is mine: First, the “time factor”. Many “lost” mines were worked several times over the centuries, being discovered, lost, rediscovered, lost, etc. In fact, Don Jose has mentioned several cases where mines in the Tayopa complex were worked by later miners, who did not realize they were a part of Tayopa (see post #85, page 6 of this thread for an example). Therefore, the time factor becomes a moot point. Don Jose, who is the one person here who has the local knowledge (boots on the ground, so to speak, or perhaps mule shoes might be more correct), states there are oranges and the ruins of a hacienda there, and that fits. Glove, shoe, who cares, it fits. Finally, Juana de Arco. Again, who is to say if Juana de Arco was not one of the mines of the Tayopa complex, worked under a different name and at a different time by different people. As Don Jose has stated many times, the names don’t really mean a thing, as the same names were used over and over for different mines and different locations, and often the same mine had different names, depending on when it was being worked and who was doing the working. So, I see no compelling reason to say that the mine in question is NOT El Naranjal, and several that indicate it may well be. Or not. As you say, who really cares what name you put on it, if it is a rich mine. Coffee, anyone?



JB

 

[J.A.A.]

Fits like a glove? How about more like 'shoe fitting' the story to your site? Is it also the lost Adams too? So where is Juana del Arco mine that is the only mine near El Naranjal, it should be very close by? How about the orchard and Rancheria too? On the time factor, when was Tayopa actually being worked, and then compare that to when Naranjal was being actively worked, there is rather a LOT of time in between there.

Justin - I have heard of that about the two French airmen and that they were seen flying over Maine but vanished. As far as I know, no one has ever found any kind of remains. You just might have found their plane, and possibly the men too. The two French aviators were named Charles Nungesser and Francois Coli, Nungesser had been an air ace in WW 1 if memory serves. If you could get in the same general area, a systematic search might turn up something of that plane and the men. That is pretty strange, and cool too!

Oro-
Thank you for the updated info. You saved me the time having to research the names. At some point in the next year or two, I'm planning on taking my wife and daughter to Maine just to relax and show them where I spent some of the best weeks of my youth. I'll definitely be poking around in those woods again just to see what I find! I'm wondering if I should call the state's archeological department and inform them of what I had seen. I'd guess they'll probably pass on any info or investigation until something more concrete than simply "a fleeting, youthful memory" comes forward. But who knows.
Anyways, back to discussing Tayopa!

All the best-
Justin

 

[Shortfinger]

Oro-
Thank you for the updated info. You saved me the time having to research the names. At some point in the next year or two, I'm planning on taking my wife and daughter to Maine just to relax and show them where I spent some of the best weeks of my youth. I'll definitely be poking around in those woods again just to see what I find! I'm wondering if I should call the state's archeological department and inform them of what I had seen. I'd guess they'll probably pass on any info or investigation until something more concrete than simply "a fleeting, youthful memory" comes forward. But who knows.
Anyways, back to discussing Tayopa!

All the best-
Justin

Justin, you might want to Google the names, there is a lot of info on the net about this flight, including some pictures of the plane, and a couple of areas where it is thought they might have crashed. And, even if it isn't that plane, it still may be some kind of a historical aircraft, so check it out! If it looks promising, there is a group called TIGHAR that might be interested as well. Looking forward to any updates (although it may be a couple of years). We are accustomed to being patient on this thread....

JB

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi SF, Still trying to figure what a tubular piece of metal would be found on an aircraft in te early 20's would be.??

 

[Shortfinger]

Hi SF, Still trying to figure what a tubular piece of metal would be found on an aircraft in te early 20's would be.??

Well, Don Jose, a couple of possibilities come to my mind. Except for the engine, most of the plane was made of wood and fabric, so it wouldn't be struts or anything like that. However, from J.A.A.'s description, I would suspect either a propeller shaft, or, possibly a propeller spinner (conical in place of cylindrical, but maybe). The problem with the spinner theory is that the photos of l’Oiuseau Blanc (Nungesser and Coli’s plane) don’t show a spinner, so, if it was in fact a spinner, it would be a different plane. That doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t of historical value, since spinners date from the WWI era or earlier, although they were not used on all planes.

Justin, was your discovery near Round Lake or Machias, Maine? That was one of the areas where the aircraft was possibly heard.



JB

 

[Shortfinger]

Rereading the post, maybe propeller hub

JB

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Generally remain togethwr, perhaps interplane strut ?

 

[Shortfinger]

Generally remain togethwr, perhaps interplane strut ?

Agreed, but old and buried? May still be together, just underground. Struts, from what I can find, were wood. Of course, if it is a different plane, all bets are off.

 

[Oroblanco]

Shortfinger wrote

Glove, shoe, who cares, it fits.

My use of that term "shoe fitting" was in relation to trying to fit something that doesn't. As with, for example, we have people trying to tell us that Montezuma's tomb is in the Superstition mountains, which while possible is not very likely. Perhaps "shoe horning" or "funnel vision" would have been a better simile. I would suggest taking another look at a map of Mexico, noting the location of Tayopa and the location where most have searched for El Naranjal, as well as the finding of the camino real sign. It is a sizable distance apart. But by all means, DO go find that mine Don Jose is calling El Naranjal, heck it could set you up for life financially! $$$

I could not recall the name of the plane, but a quick search using the names of the airmen turned up an interesting site:
Introduction

Clearly that group Tighar is interested as you suggested, and propeller hub is the correct term. I hope that Justin will keep us posted when he returns to that area in Maine.

Please do continue,