Spanish Missions

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Jim,

Trying to figure out the whole Sierra Azul thing is going down a rabbit hole- it was first mentioned by Diego de Penalosa, governor general of New Mexico from 1661 to 1664. He was a known and notorious liar, who started the speculation about Sierra Azul and it took off from there. It was often used as a cheap ploy to convince kings, particularly the king of Spain, to grant expeditions. Amongst the fervent believers of Sierra Azul was Capt. Juan Mateo Mange, Kino's companion, who thought it was somewhere up the Verde, then the very heart of Apacheria.

D-r, thanks...Can't say I disagree with anything there except I believe the references to a "Blue Mtn" were started by the Moqui's when they were trying to explain to the Spanish where they got their pigments from...I believe they took Espejo and later Farar there, which as you know was much earlier than Penalosa's attempt to save his skin with the story…

1) I am keenly interested in the actual history of what happened in the Superstitions and in relation to the Superstitions, and by that I mean the actual history, not the whitewashed history interpreted by Polzer, Bancroft, et al. or any other scholars, and neither am I overtly reliant on the printed word as the final authority of history.

I think any attempt to glean history of Spanish exploration, using official records, testimony, letters, etc. is not going to lead to the truth(EDIT: At least not in a direct line...it will lead one to figure out where someone is lying)...While I appreciate the efforts by Polzer, Bancroft, Bolton, etc....they are just repeating the deceptions everyone perpetrated on the Spanish crown, church officials, and people's attempts to mislead their enemies...the maps are the same way...reminds me of that show my wife used to watch "game of Thrones", everyone was always lying and screwing each other over...

Also, I agree Fr. Kino was a Company Man, but what I've found is that he railed against some aspects of that, especially slavery, and we can't have mining without that...That being said, I look forward to seeing what you've discovered along those lines...

 

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[sdcfia]

... When I have more time, this afternoon, I'll post excerpts, bits and pieces, that show where Kino slips up, as far as concealing his true intents, and attempting to portray himself only as simple man who is aiding the "plight" of the Indian.

How could he solve a problem that he helped create? The "Indians' plight" was outsiders taking over their lands. Nothing new about that concept in world history of course, but most conquerors don't try to rationalize their actions.

 

[wrmickel1]

the mickster has spoken

All true and you knows it is.

Mickster1

 

[azdave35]

All true and you knows it is.

Mickster1

the mickster...knows all..sees all..our hero

 

[deducer]

Good post Deducer. I do have a comment/question however...

Your first point begs the question that if you aren't putting much faith in printed/scholarly works to give insights on the true history of the Superstitions, then what are you basing your true history on?

To be clear, I'm not saying I disagree with you or am looking for an argument. If nothing else, I have an open mind, but as someone who enjoys research yourself, I'm sure if you were on this side of the keyboard you would be asking similar questions.

Those are excellent questions, and I've spent considerable time thinking about what qualifies as truth in a field that is probably the worst possible field in which to extract an objective truth or what would be considered an academic or at least, agreeable truth. We deal with what at best is revisionist history and at worst, mythology. There was a poster who put up a post, a year or so ago, that captures exactly what we have to deal with- as far as the stories, legends, and whatnot. If only I could find it.

Anyway, to establish a baseline of what would, at minimum, qualify as truth, the old tried and true standards of means, motive, and opportunity certainly applies, as does looking at the big picture as much as looking at the individual tales on their own. It’s basic deduction, hence my username.

Two things that I constantly do is look for patterns and corroborations, especially cross-referencing from different sources or accounts. Certain things that are repeated enough to qualify under the “where there’s plenty of smoke, there must be fire” standard. Especially patterns and corroborating accounts that fit the big picture.

For example, big picture: what were the Spanish doing in the New World? Conquest? Enslavement? Conversion? Or flat out plundering? The overwhelming evidence is that they were engaged in flat out plundering which we know from the sheer size and scope of the Spanish Treasure Fleet, a convoy system adopted by the empire from 1566 to 1790 that ran through Havana (where the two annual fleets would rendezvous prior to the Atlantic voyage) on its way to the Spanish Mainland. Each fleet had about 50 ships, and each galleon was estimated to transport a value cargo of 2 million pesos, and when you add up the ships over the 200 plus years that the fleets operated for, you come up with an astronomical sum. (See: Walton, Timothy R.: The Spanish Treasure Fleets.)

So with this, we establish a baseline truth- the Spanish were here to conquer and plunder, and we apply that as a basic motive behind any legend or story involving the Spanish. From there it’s not too much to also establish means and opportunity.

Likewise with the Jesuits- what were they really doing in the New World? We don’t look at the flowery prose in the reports to the Royalty (which were blatantly tailored to appeal to them) that the “scholars” such as Bolton, Dunn, et al. rely on, almost exclusively for their “sources,” and neither do we rely on the letters penned by the fathers themselves who knew that what they wrote would be scrutinized by every hand these letters passed through. We look at the big picture- the charter, the mission statement of the Jesuit order, the opening lines of the founding document declared that the society was founded for Whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God beneath the banner of the Cross in our Society, which we desire to be designated by the Name of Jesus, and to serve the Lord alone and the Church, his spouse, under the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth. Soldiers, not servants, mind you. That’s borderline extremism. They were hardliners. The next sentence starts with: He is a member of a Society..” and only in the last sentence does the mission statement talk about compassion, assisting and serving others. So from that, we know that they were first and foremost “soldiers” and that their first allegiance was to God, then to the Society, to Jesus, and finally, to the church, then to the pope.

That’s the baseline truth, the starting point, from which we can determine ulterior motivation behind what they were really doing in the Pimeria Alta. Soldiers fight wars, and wars cost money.

I could go on and on about Jesuit motivation in the New World, but you get the basic idea.

The obvious question from the reader is what specifically have you seen, and can you provide examples? I'm sure you've seen many of the photographic "proof" that other posters have shown here of things they've interpreted as treasure signs, rock carvings, etc... that you probably scratch your head at wondering how someone could make that interpretation of something so clearly a work of mother nature.

An example:

For a long time, I never placed much credence in the Doc Thorne legend until I saw one of the landmarks mentioned in the story, that of the rock outcropping that resembled the erect "member" of a stallion. It was very unmistakable. (This story is recounted in Thomas Glover’s book Treasure Tales of the Superstitions)

But more importantly it was in the right place- in the proximity of the entrance to the canyon where the two soldiers got lost. That makes me think that the Doc Thorne picked up his gold in close proximity to the LDM if not from it, itself, before the Apache buried it for good.

 

[deducer]

Also, I agree Fr. Kino was a Company Man, but what I've found is that he railed against some aspects of that, especially slavery, and we can't have mining without that...That being said, I look forward to seeing what you've discovered along those lines...

When Bolton was translating Kino's diary, he left plenty out- and some, naturally, didn't carry over, such as the innuendos, hints, and symbols that are heavily used throughout the diary.

Here's an example (thanks to Gollum who originally posted it):

View attachment 1629404

Note the symbol. If Kino had nothing to hide, why the presence of such symbols throughout the diary? What message was he trying to convey or transmit? This symbol precedes the word los mismos soldados which basically means "the verysame soldier" or "the aforementioned soldier" if I'm not wrong. My Spanish isn't quite that good.

 

[Cubfan64]

Those are excellent questions, and I've spent considerable time thinking about what qualifies as truth in a field that is probably the worst possible field in which to extract an objective truth or what would be considered an academic or at least, agreeable truth. We deal with what at best is revisionist history and at worst, mythology. There was a poster who put up a post, a year or so ago, that captures exactly what we have to deal with- as far as the stories, legends, and whatnot. If only I could find it.

Anyway, to establish a baseline of what would, at minimum, qualify as truth, the old tried and true standards of means, motive, and opportunity certainly applies, as does looking at the big picture as much as looking at the individual tales on their own. It’s basic deduction, hence my username.

Two things that I constantly do is look for patterns and corroborations, especially cross-referencing from different sources or accounts. Certain things that are repeated enough to qualify under the “where there’s plenty of smoke, there must be fire” standard. Especially patterns and corroborating accounts that fit the big picture.

For example, big picture: what were the Spanish doing in the New World? Conquest? Enslavement? Conversion? Or flat out plundering? The overwhelming evidence is that they were engaged in flat out plundering which we know from the sheer size and scope of the Spanish Treasure Fleet, a convoy system adopted by the empire from 1566 to 1790 that ran through Havana (where the two annual fleets would rendezvous prior to the Atlantic voyage) on its way to the Spanish Mainland. Each fleet had about 50 ships, and each galleon was estimated to transport a value cargo of 2 million pesos, and when you add up the ships over the 200 plus years that the fleets operated for, you come up with an astronomical sum. (See: Walton, Timothy R.: The Spanish Treasure Fleets.)

So with this, we establish a baseline truth- the Spanish were here to conquer and plunder, and we apply that as a basic motive behind any legend or story involving the Spanish. From there it’s not too much to also establish means and opportunity.

Likewise with the Jesuits- what were they really doing in the New World? We don’t look at the flowery prose in the reports to the Royalty (which were blatantly tailored to appeal to them) that the “scholars” such as Bolton, Dunn, et al. rely on, almost exclusively for their “sources,” and neither do we rely on the letters penned by the fathers themselves who knew that what they wrote would be scrutinized by every hand these letters passed through. We look at the big picture- the charter, the mission statement of the Jesuit order, the opening lines of the founding document declared that the society was founded for Whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God beneath the banner of the Cross in our Society, which we desire to be designated by the Name of Jesus, and to serve the Lord alone and the Church, his spouse, under the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth. Soldiers, not servants, mind you. That’s borderline extremism. They were hardliners. The next sentence starts with: He is a member of a Society..” and only in the last sentence does the mission statement talk about compassion, assisting and serving others. So from that, we know that they were first and foremost “soldiers” and that their first allegiance was to God, then to the Society, to Jesus, and finally, to the church, then to the pope.

That’s the baseline truth, the starting point, from which we can determine ulterior motivation behind what they were really doing in the Pimeria Alta. Soldiers fight wars, and wars cost money.

I could go on and on about Jesuit motivation in the New World, but you get the basic idea.



An example:

For a long time, I never placed much credence in the Doc Thorne legend until I saw one of the landmarks mentioned in the story, that of the rock outcropping that resembled the erect "member" of a stallion. It was very unmistakable. (This story is recounted in Thomas Glover’s book Treasure Tales of the Superstitions)

But more importantly it was in the right place- in the proximity of the entrance to the canyon where the two soldiers got lost. That makes me think that the Doc Thorne picked up his gold in close proximity to the LDM if not from it, itself, before the Apache buried it for good.

Thanks for the response Deducer. As interested as I am in this thread, I'm also a little annoyed. I swore awhile ago there were 2 topics that I just didn't want to delve into other than just casually learning about. One was the Stone Maps and the other was Jesuit/Franciscan motives, explorations and "treasure" theories.

The Stone Maps history interest me a little bit, but nothing about interpreting them. I see too many people finding complete 100% solutions to them, all of which are in different places. I see it as a rat hole that can be all consuming.

I'm annoyed because I'm probably going to start reading at least a little about the Jesuits now because of all this. My "reading list" is entirely too long now as it is with other things, but I guess I can at least try to educate myself a little better.

Rest assured I'll have more questions than I do comments though .

That reminds me, do you have photos of the horses "member?"

 

[markmar]

Deducer

You wrote : " Those are excellent questions, and I've spent considerable time thinking about what qualifies as truth in a field that is probably the worst possible field in which to extract an objective truth or what would be considered an academic or at least, agreeable truth. We deal with what at best is revisionist history and at worst, mythology. There was a poster who put up a post, a year or so ago, that captures exactly what we have to deal with- as far as the stories, legends, and whatnot. If only I could find it. "

Is that post somewhere in the pages #6 and #7 of this thread ? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/509505-did-waltz-really-have-rich-mine-6.html

 

[PotBelly Jim]

When Bolton was translating Kino's diary, he left plenty out- and some, naturally, didn't carry over, such as the innuendos, hints, and symbols that are heavily used throughout the diary.

Here's an example (thanks to Gollum who originally posted it):

View attachment 1629404

Note the symbol. If Kino had nothing to hide, why the presence of such symbols throughout the diary? What message was he trying to convey or transmit? This symbol precedes the word los mismos soldados which basically means "the verysame soldier" or "the aforementioned soldier" if I'm not wrong. My Spanish isn't quite that good.

Dr., couldn't see the attachment with Kino's symbol that Gollum posted...los mismos soldados is plural..."the same soldiers"...anyway, I will search for Gollums post but if you happen to see this, would you please try again...thanks, Jim

 

[deducer]

Deducer

You wrote : " Those are excellent questions, and I've spent considerable time thinking about what qualifies as truth in a field that is probably the worst possible field in which to extract an objective truth or what would be considered an academic or at least, agreeable truth. We deal with what at best is revisionist history and at worst, mythology. There was a poster who put up a post, a year or so ago, that captures exactly what we have to deal with- as far as the stories, legends, and whatnot. If only I could find it. "

Is that post somewhere in the pages #6 and #7 of this thread ? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/509505-did-waltz-really-have-rich-mine-6.html

No- I'm not sure where exactly it was. It was a post made by a member who has only a handful of posts on this forum and it was in response to CactusJumper's (Joe) post in regard to what exactly qualified as an acceptable source. I replied in the next post with one word: "Exactly!!!" I tried to do a google advanced search, looking for that one word, hoping to backtrack from there, but no luck.

 

[deducer]

Dr., couldn't see the attachment with Kino's symbol that Gollum posted...los mismos soldados is plural..."the same soldiers"...anyway, I will search for Gollums post but if you happen to see this, would you please try again...thanks, Jim

Hope it comes through this time:



And the page:

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

...
That reminds me, do you have photos of the horses "member?"

Well there goes the "G" rating...

 

[deducer]

To continue with our friend, Fr. Kino and whether or not he dabbled in mining or was involved with it in any way, I first want to point out that nothing he ever did was for personal gain. He always put the company ahead of himself.

That being said, here is an interesting excerpt from Jesuit Missions of Northern Mexico by Charles Polzer, especially the last sentence:



Why the interest? Why suggest a quicksilver depot? How does he know that quicksilver is necessary for amalgamation?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Deducer, thanks for page (out of one of Kino's diaries, or is it a letter?) It was hard to make out, but I got the gist of it. The symbol I think reflects Kino's training both as a Jesuit and as an astronomer...as purely astronomical symbols, they're the symbols for Earth and Mars overlaid on each other...but the earth symbol is actually also a globus cruciger...and the Mars symbol represents the spear and shield...so essentially it's a symbol for a warrior of Christ.

As far as his knowing what quicksilver was used for, I think they all did...after all, he was a scientist...It's possible he suggested a Royal quicksilver depot for the simple reason that they needed it in greater supply than they currently had...at any rate, while I said Kino wasn't much interested in mining, I didn't mean to say he wasn't involved in it in any way...they all were to some extent...I still think Kino was primarily a "miner of Souls" much more than he cared about minerals, and cared much more about ministering than mining, but I concede the point.

 

[deducer]

Deducer, thanks for page (out of one of Kino's diaries, or is it a letter?) It was hard to make out, but I got the gist of it. The symbol I think reflects Kino's training both as a Jesuit and as an astronomer...as purely astronomical symbols, they're the symbols for Earth and Mars overlaid on each other...but the earth symbol is actually also a globus cruciger...and the Mars symbol represents the spear and shield...so essentially it's a symbol for a warrior of Christ.

As far as his knowing what quicksilver was used for, I think they all did...after all, he was a scientist...It's possible he suggested a Royal quicksilver depot for the simple reason that they needed it in greater supply than they currently had...at any rate, while I said Kino wasn't much interested in mining, I didn't mean to say he wasn't involved in it in any way...they all were to some extent...I still think Kino was primarily a "miner of Souls" much more than he cared about minerals, and cared much more about ministering than mining, but I concede the point.

Jim,

As far as "conceding the point," I don't see this as a win/loss debate. We're mostly, in the absence of solid historical evidence, limited to speculation and deduction so it's always good to have another intelligent mind, a different point of view, another way of looking at things to give perspective.

I personally don't see Kino as someone who gave priority to anything in particular, other than the advacement of his company and organization- I believe he was a "jack of all trades," so to speak. He did, and participated in quite a number of things, all in the name of his organization.

However, to characterize him as a "miner of souls" is, IMO, quite misleading. The Native Americans were doing just fine until the Europeans came to plunder, enslave, and impose their worldviews, especially religion-wise. There was very little interest in ethnography, especially as far as the Jesuits were concerned.

 

[markmar]

No- I'm not sure where exactly it was. It was a post made by a member who has only a handful of posts on this forum and it was in response to CactusJumper's (Joe) post in regard to what exactly qualified as an acceptable source. I replied in the next post with one word: "Exactly!!!" I tried to do a google advanced search, looking for that one word, hoping to backtrack from there, but no luck.

You can try searching your last posts for the last few years at the " Find latest posts " on your Tnet profile page . Something 'tells " me it was in the middle of the closed Hal Croves thread " Superstition People, Places, & Things. "

If you will can't find it , that means it's in another forum or the tread with the post was removed/deleted by the adminiustrator .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

As far as "conceding the point," I don't see this as a win/loss debate. We're mostly, in the absence of solid historical evidence, limited to speculation and deduction so it's always good to have another intelligent mind, a different point of view, another way of looking at things to give perspective.

I personally don't see Kino as someone who gave priority to anything in particular, other than the advacement of his company and organization- I believe he was a "jack of all trades," so to speak. He did, and participated in quite a number of things, all in the name of his organization.

However, to characterize him as a "miner of souls" is, IMO, quite misleading. The Native Americans were doing just fine until the Europeans came to plunder, enslave, and impose their worldviews, especially religion-wise. There was very little interest in ethnography, especially as far as the Jesuits were concerned.

Poor choice of words on my part...wasn't trying to make it a win/loss, was just trying to say I concede the point that Kino was more involved with mining than what I described in my earlier post...

Re: Kino's motivations...yes, anyone in a large organization that requires initiative etc. from its members, is going to devote a large portion of their time and energy on "administrative" tasks to further the mission...whether they like it or not, they are tasks that must be done...whether that be for the Spanish crown, the Company of Jesus, or the Pope...they are also going to spend time on competing with other factions...but I believe the vast majority of the evidence we do have, demonstrates that Kino was a true missionary, he really believed in his mission in a spiritual sense...he wanted to follow in his Uncle's footsteps (even to the point of trying to get posted to Asia), and I also believe that the evidence clearly shows that Kino tried to protect and be of service to the Indians, within the limits he had to work in, and would have done anything he could for them, up to and including giving his life...but he would have put the Company first before all others...so while it looks like we might agree and also disagree on some of Kino's primary motivations, that's OK...anything I can learn about Kino that's been swept under the rug or hidden, I'm all for it...take care, Jim

 

[deducer]

Poor choice of words on my part...wasn't trying to make it a win/loss, was just trying to say I concede the point that Kino was more involved with mining than what I described in my earlier post...

Re: Kino's motivations...yes, anyone in a large organization that requires initiative etc. from its members, is going to devote a large portion of their time and energy on "administrative" tasks to further the mission...whether they like it or not, they are tasks that must be done...whether that be for the Spanish crown, the Company of Jesus, or the Pope...they are also going to spend time on competing with other factions...but I believe the vast majority of the evidence we do have, demonstrates that Kino was a true missionary, he really believed in his mission in a spiritual sense...he wanted to follow in his Uncle's footsteps (even to the point of trying to get posted to Asia), and I also believe that the evidence clearly shows that Kino tried to protect and be of service to the Indians, within the limits he had to work in, and would have done anything he could for them, up to and including giving his life...but he would have put the Company first before all others...so while it looks like we might agree and also disagree on some of Kino's primary motivations, that's OK...anything I can learn about Kino that's been swept under the rug or hidden, I'm all for it...take care, Jim

I have no doubt that he believed he was doing the right thing for the Indians. His attempt to protect them from slavery is commendable- his attempt to convert them, was not.

Anyway, back to the diary- as far as I can make it out, the sentence prior to the symbol is as follows: "y siempre con menos y mas prolongados pensiones de mas prolijos trabajos aun de los mismos soldados"

What do you think?

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

I have no doubt that he believed he was doing the right thing for the Indians. His attempt to protect them from slavery is commendable- his attempt to convert them, was not.

Anyway, back to the diary- as far as I can make it out, the sentence prior to the symbol is as follows: "y siempre con menos y mas prolongados pensiones de mas prolijos trabajos aun de los mismos soldados"

What do you think?

As I recall, there were 27 mission sites in Arizona. Only 3 of them had padres and became missions. The other 24 had a church, a house for the padre, and a storehouse full of grain, fulfilling the requirements to become a mission. They were called 'visitas' until a padre was assigned to them. And these indian rancharias remained visitas for decades waiting for their padre that never came. The only way 1 man (Father Kino) could cause all of that heavy work to be completed is if the indians wanted to do it. Seems to me the indians wanted to be converted.

In my opinion the biggest evil in New Spain was the encomienda system. That's what enslaved the native people. Jesuits didn't own encomiendas. They were opposed to the system. It was the rich colonists, political figures and military officers. They're the ones that owned encomiendas and stood to profit the most by preserving the system. I believe they started many vicious rumors about the Jesuits in an attempt to curtail their power.

If you're looking for evil Jesuits, look at the top, not the bottom were Father Kino came from. The bottom is where the Jesuit saints come from.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I have no doubt that he believed he was doing the right thing for the Indians. His attempt to protect them from slavery is commendable- his attempt to convert them, was not.

Anyway, back to the diary- as far as I can make it out, the sentence prior to the symbol is as follows: "y siempre con menos y mas prolongados pensiones de mas prolijos trabajos aun de los mismos soldados"

What do you think?

I’m not sure…it’s very difficult for me to follow his train of thought, as I can only read what’s about in the middle 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] of the page…It looks to me like he is “going off”, something the Spanish military has done, specifically regarding punishment, (but I can’t tell if it’s Indians, soldiers or clergy being punished) appears to be threatening everything they have risked their lives for, and what many soldiers have died for…


He’s saying he has no doubt that the Presidio (which one?) will not win by carrying out these punishments, only lose…instead of having a calming effect, things will become more turbulent…instead of remedying the situation, they will cause more problems etc. etc….he seems really worked up…the sentence directly preceding the symbol seems to be predicting they will reap rewards in a manner exceeding the “work” of the soldiers themselves...i.e. violence will be visited upon them that’s even worse than what the soldiers have done…


After that it appears he is complaining that the Generals and Captains aren’t doing their jobs as officers of the crown or as Catholics…

I may be wrong as to what he’s talking about, as I’m having difficulty establishing context for what he’s talking about…do you know where this page came from, and are there any more pages available?

Also...is it possible that the symbol in question is shorthand for something like "may God protect us"? I'm not familiar with Kino's writing habits, so I don't know, but I would expect a priest to say something like that after a prediction of violence...

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