Spanish Missions

Bill Riley said:
I take out trash every time I go. Desert Ghetto Trash.

Jim, I haven't been able to locate all the rare maps section of my archives as of yet. I do thank you for keeping me on my toes you sent me a on a document trip back to the Archives of the Indies where I've discovered and downloaded even more rare maps! I have quite a collection from there in three locations as I only have access to two. I also discovered a rare map that might be of interest to some other Thunters that I just hunted with.

It may not have been a Kino Map, or it could be the succession of a few of his maps. I see the one your using and the one I saw was different as it showed a square structure about where the old ruins are at. I assumed since he was along to protect Kino it was a Military out post that leaned towards mining.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill, if you happen to run across it, please post if you can.

One other thought on this particular location...I know a lot of local "anglo" families have legends about this being a "Spanish Mission"...one thing to keep in mind, the local families and miners in this part of AZ were very segregated until about the 1960's...It's very possible that this site was built by someone using laid-off or unemployed miners that were of Hispanic descent(they were a lot cheaper to employ, and many were very skilled stone-workers)...Following that lead, it's possible that some "non-anglo" families that have lived there for generations may have a very different story as to how this site was built, and who built it...just an idea for people to talk to should you go digging around locally...

I happen to suspect there was Spanish, and to a larger degree, Mexican mining activity in central AZ prior to the Civil War...I also think what Waltz found was a hand-processed cache, and he later believed he knew exactly where the mine was, where that cache came from...obviously just my opinion...Dripping Springs is not that far out-of-bounds for a location, if one wanted to get there unobserved and have water along the way, the Supes are not a bad choice to fulfill those requirements...again, my opinion...
 

PotBelly Jim said:
Thanks Bill, if you happen to run across it, please post if you can.

One other thought on this particular location...I know a lot of local "anglo" families have legends about this being a "Spanish Mission"...one thing to keep in mind, the local families and miners in this part of AZ were very segregated until about the 1960's...It's very possible that this site was built by someone using laid-off or unemployed miners that were of Hispanic descent(they were a lot cheaper to employ, and many were very skilled stone-workers)...Following that lead, it's possible that some "non-anglo" families that have lived there for generations may have a very different story as to how this site was built, and who built it...just an idea for people to talk to should you go digging around locally...

I happen to suspect there was Spanish, and to a larger degree, Mexican mining activity in central AZ prior to the Civil War...I also think what Waltz found was a hand-processed cache, and he later believed he knew exactly where the mine was, where that cache came from...obviously just my opinion...Dripping Springs is not that far out-of-bounds for a location, if one wanted to get there unobserved and have water along the way, the Supes are not a bad choice to fulfill those requirements...again, my opinion...
Click to expand...


Don't forget the Church Bell!


What the guy told me was it had a huge Bell tower that could be heard ringing for many leagues. The older Gentleman told this guy in Tubac he remembers the huge bell being hauled out when the mine company remodeled the old Church. It more than likely was Franciscan as earlier structures made by Kino's Jesuit Padre's were small rectangular church's for mass of the Indian's. There was the San Pedro Pesidio just up the river or south of Manje's Castle. I think at one time there was a closer Pesidio that remains undiscovered along the Pedro.

Waltz probably found a cob site where they hand cob gold. It's usually with in a quarter mile distance of the gold mine. The location has a storage room with in 75 feet or so of the small cob Arrastra carved into solid rock in a small side wash off the main. I found one once in the Galiuro Mountains before I knew it's significance. Never made it back there...I sat in the hand cob Arrastra eating my lunch looking at the golf ball sized hole they would hand cob gold ore in to. It was horrible trip I made in about 120 degree heat. 2.5 miles to a target and back 2.5. All cross country up and down, up and down, many ridges. Finally made it to the target and nothing there. I assume I should have halved my distance which would have put me on top the Arrastra. I was a novice back then. I used a rock monument viewing station with heart map for the sighting of the location with a distance sign from a large outcropping of stone. I didn't know what the Arrastra was at the time.
 

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Bolton's two volumes of which he explains and translates Fr. Kino's memoirs about his time in the Pimeria Alta (translated to English) are available online if anyone wants them...I don't know if anyone has posted this in the past, but but for those who haven't seen anything on it, in order to download them,

Go to:


https://archive.org/search.php


copy and paste the below line into the search bar that appears:


subject:"Pimería Alta (Mexico and Ariz.)"


Then, two downloads should appear, Vol. I and Vol II.

Click on them to download. There are several formats available, the PDF version is what I chose.


 

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PotBelly Jim said:
Bolton's two volumes of which he explains and translates Fr. Kino's memoirs about his time in the Pimeria Alta (translated to English) are available online if anyone wants them...I don't know if anyone has posted this in the past, but but for those who haven't seen anything on it, in order to download them,

Go to:


https://archive.org/search.php


copy and paste the below line into the search bar that appears:


subject:"Pimería Alta (Mexico and Ariz.)"


Then, two downloads should appear, Vol. I and Vol II.

Click on them to download. There are several formats available, the PDF version is what I chose.
Click to expand...

Jim, Here's an early pamplet Ive had many years. The first three pages. It gives a good summary of the Mission chains and Pesidio's along the routes. Also Kino and Manje's exploits and travels. I believe I got it from the Tumacacori Mission in the town named the same.

View attachment 1624268

View attachment 1624269


View attachment 1624270
 

Hey Bill you are close but on the wrong river !
 

I can only wonder who that was possibly Doc. Ness or Ruth who knows ??
 

Hey Mr. Pot Belly that so called mud in actuality was quick sand. I know from personal expierience.
 

In the area that became known as disappointed valley.
 

One of the most secure places for the church to secure their wealth was in what was known as Apacheria.
 

ink said:
Here is a pic I have posted before according to historical Spanish archives there was @ least 12 Spanish Missions located north of the Gila River, I personally have located 2 of these missions within 5 miles of this heart. The bell towers are there but the bells are missing ??.View attachment 1621438 Notice the cross ??
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Asking again in case you missed it the first time...

Can you specify what historical Spanish archives that information came from? It would be a really interesting research project to nail down even roughly where the 12 Spanish missions were north of the Gila as the vast amount of information readily available says there were none.
 

Cubfan64 said:
Asking again in case you missed it the first time...

Can you specify what historical Spanish archives that information came from? It would be a really interesting research project to nail down even roughly where the 12 Spanish missions were north of the Gila as the vast amount of information readily available says there were none.
Click to expand...

It's very likely that it's a complete fabrication.
 

deducer said:
It's very likely that it's a complete fabrication.
Click to expand...

Trying my best to give the benefit of the doubt. If there's truth to it and there is documented archival data to suggest such, it would be of great historical value. Not sure what cause there would be to not specify what archival records suggest it - hoping Ink will respond if not publicly then privately. I love to dig in archives.
 

Cubfan64 said:
Asking again in case you missed it the first time...

Can you specify what historical Spanish archives that information came from? It would be a really interesting research project to nail down even roughly where the 12 Spanish missions were north of the Gila as the vast amount of information readily available says there were none.
Click to expand...

Paul

When you said " north of the Gila " , you meant north of Casa Grande or north of the Gila after its junction with Salt River ? Because here is a big difference between these two meanings .
Now , from Casa Grande till the Junction with Salt River , there were about six visitas/missions on the west bank of the Gila River , with San Felipe to be the bigger one ( like Casa Grande ) .
From the Salt River junction till the junction with Colorado River , there were also another three , with the fourth ( San Dionysio ) to be north of the Gila (??) .

All these you can see at ( scroll on the map to see it closer ) https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...lifornia-drawn-by-the-society-of-jesui-gibson
and at ( hit the + on the pdf to see closer ) https://www.miningfoundationsw.org/...AZ - V 2/01_OFFICER_1991_HIST_MINING_AZ_2.PDF
 

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markmar said:
Paul

When you said " north of the Gila " , you meant north of Casa Grande or north of the Gila after its junction with Salt River ? Because here is a big difference between these two meanings .
Now , from Casa Grande till the Junction with Salt River , there were about six visitas/missions on the west bank of the Gila River , with San Felipe to be the bigger one ( like Casa Grande ) .
From the Salt River junction till the junction with Colorado River , there were also another three , with the fourth ( San Dionysio ) to be north of the Gila (??) .

All these you can see at ( scroll on the map to see it closer ) https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...lifornia-drawn-by-the-society-of-jesui-gibson
and at ( hit the + on the pdf to see closer ) https://www.miningfoundationsw.org/...AZ - V 2/01_OFFICER_1991_HIST_MINING_AZ_2.PDF
Click to expand...

Marius,

I was referencing Ink's statement from the initial post in this thread...

...according to historical Spanish archives there was @ least 12 Spanish Missions located north of the Gila River.
Click to expand...

I was referring directly to missions located N of the Gila River.

I'm far from being knowledgeable about the Jesuits or Franciscans, but I've seen the map you linked many times before as well as a few other versions done at differing times and I personally don't see any missions shown to the N of the Gila River. The only possible exception would be "San Dionysio" however as I understand it that was never a mission but rather just a collection of Yuma natives who lived there and Kino gave it that name.

The other Mission locations are all S of the Gila or W of the Santa Cruz from what I can see. I know there are some inaccuracies or at least questionable things on the 1757 French reproduction of the Jesuit map - for example Casa Grande and the Salt/Verde rivers are not lined up the way it seems as though they should be and I'm not sure exactly what Rio Azul is?

Like I said, I'm not really informed on all this stuff, so please correct me if I'm not seeing something correctly.
 

Paul , you are right . There was only one mission north of Gila ( San Dionysio ) , and I say this because in the second link , the author presented the first map as Jesuit missions and not Native villages . Of course , we will never can know for certain .
I believe the Rio Azul to be the Queen Creek ,which in that era could been a river .
 

markmar said:
Paul , you are right . There was only one mission north of Gila ( San Dionysio ) , and I say this because in the second link , the author presented the first map as Jesuit missions and not Native villages . Of course , we will never can know for certain .
I believe the Rio Azul to be the Queen Creek ,which in that era could been a river .
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right that Rio Azul is Queen Creek - I hadn't thought of that. You're correct that we probably will never know, however since Ink started the thread mentioning archival evidence that there WERE 12 missions north of the Gila River, I just wanted to find out what that specific information was if he was able to share it - nothing more, nothing less.

Paul
 

Marius, the R. Azul that appears on the old Spanish maps (and on the maps of the other nations that obtained and copied those maps) is actually the Verde...

What I don't understand is why they seem to overlook the Hassayampa...perhaps that is R. Assumpcion...surely they must have known about it...
 

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